Went through and couldn't find any links in the sub (I might have missed it) that had those UTM params, including links shared by Codesmith staff.
I found variations of your own links directly to specific problems that YOU SHARED that still have the same UTM params.
It's not adding up still and this looks like evidence of astroturfing.
I've only seen recent data from Launch School and Codesmith, two other top bootcamps.
Launch School is holding it together with around 70% placement rate for 2023 (down from 90s).
Codesmith only released CA data and those fell off a cliff to 42% in 2023.
The best bootcamps were ready for a 8.0 earthquake and survived 2023+2024 but some have sever structural damage. Makes them question whether to demolish what's left and possibly rebuild form scratch or keep using the damaged bridges and road, hoping they don't collapse.
Rithm closed shop. App Academy indefinitely paused SWE.
Rigorously question any bootcamp trying to get you to drive across a damaged bridge because you don't want to be on the bridge when it collapses.
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
I've only seen recent days from Launch School and Codesmith, two other top bootcamps.
Launch School is holding it together with around 70% placement rate for 2023 (down from 90s).
Codesmith only released CA data and those fell off a cliff to 42% in 2023.
The best bootcamps we're ready for a 8.0 earthquake and survived 2023+2024 but some have sever structural damage. Makes them question whether to demolish what's left and possibly rebuild form scratch or keep using the damaged bridges and road, hoping they don't collapse.
Rithm closed shop. App Academy indefinitely paused SWE.
Rigorously question any bootcamp trying to get you to drive across a damaged bridge because you don't want to be on the bridge when it collapses.
I edited to add Launch School. Believe it or not, I respect that Codesmith at least tries to publish consistent data on a consistent cadence and I didn't want to put it side by side with Launch School which makes Codesmith's placement rates look way worse.
The problem this is Launch School has every single graduate accounted for and a ghosting grad isn't included. Codesmith includes LinkedIn verified ghosters in their data.
What would you recommend I do, just only publish Launch School's in this case?
Yeah, I would say anyone at FAANG, heavily involved in hiring entry level talent, during the early 2010s would have a similar view for those eras.
The 2020s I think I have a bit more of a unique perspective by working with bootcamps from tons of bootcamps (specifically: Hack Reactor, FullStack Academy, Codesmith, Launch School, General Assembly, Flatiron School, Lambda School) I have a lens into a bunch of different programs and the strengths and weaknesses of people from bootcamps compared to degrees. As well as a unique view to compare bootcamp grads later in their careers VS cs grads.
1. This person was not in Formation, they did a different program , a Netflix program. They have a certificate from Netflix, signed by Netflix, showing this on their profile.
2. We don't hire Fellows as Teaching Assistants, we don't have Teaching Assistants at Formation and we don't have classes or lectures or courses or anything. Fellows is the name of engineers we work with to level up. It's a vague and ambiguous word so I understand the misunderstanding, but you also should be trying understand our language that we use consistently because this is a word that doesn't mean job universally and in our industry it's the standard word for our customer that places like Pathrise use as well. Like if you visit another country and insist on speaking English and being upset people don't understand you... it's your job to understand.
3. The industry standard is for students to put "pathways" p…
We have people who have been with us for a long time and our bar used to be any SWE work experience in 2019 to 2022, then was 1+ year 2023 -> and then 2+ years in 2024.
I was replying to a comment about the current state of Formation that someone was criticizing.
There can be edge case people people from a long time ago that place that have less experience and we also have a handful of people we accept now with less than 2+ years of experience.
You're right I shouldn't say "only take". We only market to and and only consider people with 2+ years since 2024 and reject others, and we have exceptions and edge case for one off reasons who come back and make a case or explain their circumstances on a call.
We also have partnerships with Netflix and Waymo where we prepare interns for their corresponding interviews. And those people are not paying $2500 a month, are not paying anything, and…
How do we benefit from the bootcamp industry being ruined exactly?
I've told you time and time again that people on LinkedIn are a small edge case group of people about formation and you have zero idea and it's completely confidential who actually goes there so it is impossible for you to know the demographic better than I do.
so unless you think I'm blatantly lying to you in public then I'm not too sure what the argument is that you're making.
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
That sounds awesome. I've been consistently saying for years that bootcamps are sufficient alone but apprenticeships (or any kind of supported on ramp) is the absolutely ideal job for bootcamp grads.
It takes some investment but its a way to get some really good people without paying $500K for a Stanford grad.
The problem I'm seeing right now is there are fewer bootcamps left and places like Codesmith where grads lie about their experience to sneak into more experienced roles, covering up the fact they went to a bootcamp. It completely breaks the system.
Imagine you hire five boot campers and they go through your rotation program and you unintentionally/unknowingly hire a codesmith grad as a mid-level engineer who is equally experienced as the boot campers, but is now in this weird spot where they're faking it all the time that they have experience. really the ideal would be that they…
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
And this is he problem. Bootcamp's have been pushing people to put lipstick on a pig instead of actually preparing people better.
There's a bootcamp called Codesmith that previously had pretty good outcomes and most of their grads learn how to fake their experience. They are told their 3-4 week projects are equivalent of 4 months of experience for background checks (that their employee says they sign off on).
I reviewed these projects on GitHub and they were so full of noob problems that I flagged this and called them out on it.
Their response: double down and make no changes.
Good intentions but even the best bootcamps are failing people right now.
And Codesmith costs $22,500 for 14 weeks.
yeah, we've had conversations in the past about people going to boot camps to learn rather than to get a job. unfortunately with the market right now, the people who are going to boot camps are people who have done a lot of research and are going to get a job.
like the people who are complaining to me so much about Codesmith right now is a mix of that. their teachers are recent graduates that don't know as much as they do because they were like super prepared and went there just to get a job. and then people who got a job or didn't get a job but are complaining that of way more people than expected in their cohorts did not get jobs yet and that they're very upset with the support they're getting, like cutting off mock interviews this month for alumni according to one person, something they promised for life.
like I hear so much about just one program because it's spiraled over the yea…
Every person got SWE jobs in a bunch of cohorts was the thing that stood out yeah. It's quite inconsistent with three of my sources.
I have a ton of typos because I use voice to text and on my phone so I edit a lot of messages to reword but I agree with you to watch out on editing.
So the scope of what people say matters and how they say it.
If you say something is an option or observation then it's different from saying something is fact.
If you say something is a fact I will diligently review far more than if you say it's an opinion.
Many opinions that align can be useful even if it's not a fact based conclusion.
And sometimes one very specific fact.... like evidence Codesmith paid someone to go after me on Reddit can mean a heck of a lot even if its limited to a specific situation.
Thanks for sharing, that would help explain why they had 65% of placements 'non response but verified via LinkedIn' for 2023 grads in CA.
Questions:
1. Are these people getting SWE roles or taking adjacent jobs?
2. If people are not responsive to Codesmith, how do you know the cohorts have 60% placement rates? Are you using LinkedIn yourself or are you using the unofficial channels.
(I ask because the alumni that have messaged me in the past few weeks have universally called their alumni channels "ghost towns" (they are 2024 though!)
3. Why do you think so many people are no longer responding to the emails compared to in 2022?
The three eras to me are defined not necessarily by dates but by bootcamp trends.
The dates in my original post don't align super well and I have to spend more time thinking of the dates if they matter at all.
1. Era 1: super intense in person bootcamps for super smart people that had to prove themselves to get it, worked crazy hard, and got very good outcomes.
This was very non-diverse, a lot of young single professionals with a lot of savings and no families or who could pack up their lives to move to SF.
This is where bootcamps came from when they started out.
The canonical one here would be the earliest days of Hack Reactor.
Big tech was hiring these people if they passed interviews. There weren't a lot of grads for a broad trend but some made it through!
2. Era 2: DEI. Big companies realized that non-traditional sources of talent could help increase diversity because CS grad…
ELABORATED ANSWERS:
1. No one is falling for it:
a - Applications and enrollments to bootcamps have absolutely tanked. I can't give too much away in my sourcing here but I have hot off the press anecdotes and it seems to be falling off a cliff from already painful numbers.
b - I don't know any company that his historically hired bootcamp grads that is knowingly hiring them (i.e. they aren't faking it and getting fake letters of reference) other than apprenticeships and the anti-DEI shift has diminished or ended a lot of those.
2. Market cooled:
a - it cooled for entry level SWE roles from 2020-2022 and particularly bootcamp grads
b - agencies don't hire for level and they hire for specific skills so I expect agency hiring hasn't changed much and wouldn't push back on that.
3. No one is hiring bootcamp grads:
Ok sure "no one" is too harsh. It's extremely rare to see job postings w…
Bootcamps had 3 eras:
2015 to 2020: a lot of success stories, bootcamps had high bars and only let in people who had a high chance of success. They worked on at a small scale
2020 to 2023: COVID - bootcamps and remote work exploded and the successful bootcamps scaled over night and completely failed. Lambda School was the canary here - it showed us bootcamps can't scale by just multiplying their staff but schools did anyways. Instead of reflecting and strengthening during these boom times they just scaled and failed.
2023-Present: market cooled bootcamps reputations destroyed, no one is hiring bootcamp grads, no one is falling for it.
I follow Codesmith closely and look at the California official placement rates for six months post graduation: 2021 - 90%, 2022 - 70%, 2023 - 42%.... and they raised prices this year anyways despite knowing these numbers before doing so.
It depends on the person but in the current market if you have 2+ years of real SWE experience we can generally help you. We do a lot of job hunt and resume work but I completely agree that we can't beat the market - we used to take more people right out of bootcamps with minimal experience (like working at the bootcamp itself, or contracts, some people faked their work experience and go through) and we increased that threshold in the bad market.
But if you have 2+ years of experience in any legit SWE job you can get into big tech, I see it multiple times a month. It takes longer if your background is less strong, like in the past few weeks we had placements at Meta, Google, and Stripe of people who had been with us for like 2 WHOLE YEARS and wouldn't meet the criteria on this post. If you work with mentors from FAANG-adjacent companies for weeks and weeks you eventually absorb some of…
Reddit doesn't add UTM params to anything so wherever you got it from was someone including tracking for marketing purposes.
Codesmith claims that they have no control over the Codesmith subreddit (which is the one referenced in the UTM params) so something doesn't add up:
The params are explicitly referencing the Codesmith subreddit and not only that but you shared the exact same UTM params in a dozen or more places across Reddit.
If you were sharing it genuinely you would probably have clean links or different links each time. You might just got o CSX and copy paste the clean URL for example, or you might link to specific exercises have different params.
So if you accidentally did this, then you kept copy pasting your same comment dozens of times and changing it a bit, which violates Reddits ToS against mass commenting.
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
I have a list of LinkedIns for Future Code people and a bunch are doing the same old experience exaggeration that students do.
I thought you couldn't have any experience or a CS degree going into Future Code and now I'm seeing these people retroactively having adjacent experience and computer science degrees in progress or computer science minors.
Future Code students - if you are reading this - don't lie on your resumes and don't believe Codesmith if they tell you aren't lying but just representing your "real capacities" and making your "perceived capacities" align with the real ones.
It might help you get a job but the industry looks down on this and if you get a job this why and OSLabs signs off on your background check, you'll have to live with the fact that you cheated your way into the industry and the consequences will catch up with you someday.
I've worked with a couple of Fu…
My suspicion was that it was a fake account. Codesmith has (or their 3rd party marketer) has had a bunch of fake posting activity here.
You all have to watch out for fake content on Reddit, some of it is very well hidden.
That person who appears like a student doing CSX and posting about it keeps sharing links to Codesmith with UTM tracking params in the URLs (which Reddit doesn't add and were added manually) indicating all of those posts are basically ads.
I'm not on the selection team but just from what I do know I don't think emailing will necessarily help, just because it's a fixed time window and until you've heard back then you're still in the running and we're only committing to make the decisions by the end of the window I believe is April 6th (check the website).
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate you being realistic about the market.
RE: 3RD PARTY PLATFORM
Personally, I'm not a fan of bootcamps marketing features that they outsource to 3rd party services anyone can use. You are indirectly paying for that choice.
Second, in this market you need people looking for different angles that other people don't have and using 3rd party solutions is using something a bunch of people have access to - like you said - jobs getting 100 applications in 20 mins.
RE: MONEY BACK GUARANTEE
If something is too good to be true it probably is. The motivations of the guarantee make sense, but it doesn't work if they refund most people and paid all this money on Prentus and staff members in the mean time, company goes bankrupt.
We're seeing that happen a lot of places!
But the ideal in this market is meeting in the middle - you have some lower…
I've seen a number of bootcamp success stories over the past year (speaking personally, not professionally) across a range of bootcamps and I'm super inspired by the individual stories and journeys. Like almost tear jerker level of impressive grit and determination.
This weekend I felt really sad after hearing a story because the larger problem is these things just aren't reproducible.
Each person has their own story and the mechanics of how it happened are unique to that person.
The common traits are grit and curiosity that stand out as the top 20%.
Meaning if you went to a bootcamp, and there were 20 people in your cohort, you have to have more grit than 16 other people, so if they are working late, you have to work later, etc... If they are digging into "why" something is the way it is, you have to dig further.
If you consistently do that for 6 months post bootcamp you have a b…
>Our team is very focused on the bigger picture, being a rigorous and accessible pathway for a new gen of technologists able to help meet this moment (arguably the 4th industrial revolution)
Your team should spend more time on the ground with students and less time with the bigger picture. If you want to only work on the bigger picture, go into academia or politics.
Otherwise don't take peoples' $22.5K and use that money to fund your "bigger picture" explorations and ideas, or to fund the creation of new AI/ML programs.
VC, loans, and outside funding is meant for investing the future. Your students are paying to get jobs, not paying for developing future programs and so the team can go to conferences like Davos and write books.
I haven't made a penny of salary or compensation from my company in 5.5 years since day 1, and we have never had a profit, because every penny given to us is…
Yeah at Formation we support people until they get a job and it's very understandable that some people will change their mind and not job hunt, or change paths.
On a human level, at Formation, if you do 100 mentor sessions, a hundred practice tasks, and you change your mind about job hunting, it's not fair to get your money back or not pay anything. We'll keep supporting you and you are choosing to leave.
Ultimately the contract you sign governs the relationship though and if you owe the money you'll owe the money, so if you don't want to compromise and approach the situation reasonably then you shouldn't expect to not pay anything. You are working with businesses and you are asking all your peers to pay for you if you do that.
For example, if a program offers you a contractual promise that they don't fulfill and the contract says you don't owe anything then you shouldn't pay anything…
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
CIRR is dead and deserves scrutiny because Codesmith's marketing of it has mislead hundreds of people to pay them $21,500 in 2024, it is indeed worthy of scrutiny.
When Codesmith had like 12ish cohorts in 2024 and 2-3 of them say that they only know about 1 person placed in 6 months, that's not a fact by any means but it raises flags and warrants questions.
Codesmith's response has been to entirely evade the question.
They clearly have 2024 data of some kind that they are publishing, but they aren't publishing H1 2024 placement rates - which they obviously have preliminary versions of or they can't publish the offer data they have.
Even if they don't have or want to publish placements rates they can say "warning, placement rates are down, we want to double down on finding and supporting the RIGHT people for Codesmith so if you want to become a SWE, work with us and we'll be honest wi…
1. first try free and cheap online resources and courses until you feel like a couple of things are clicking
2. look at Launch School - it's the "slow way" to becoming a SWE, but it works well if you are a good fit. The reason it works is because it's small and only takes people who are very likely for it to work for
3. consider bootcamps ONLY TO LEARN not to get a job. you might get a job, but you should look into them as a way of learning skills you don't have in an intense way and if that approach will work for you. Codesmith is like $22.5 for 14 weeks so that's like $1500 a week and for some people it's worth that much "just to learn", for many it's not - and the curriculum itself is like not the same as the public content they do - it's more like 2 hour long slide show lectures on a topic + projects.
4. consider an online masters like Georgia Tech OMSCS - this is ideal if you hav…
Sorry this is confusing, I'm intentionally not giving specific timeframes or specific details on events because it will reveal who is involved and Codesmith has at least two times tracked people down from Reddit with specific examples shared to me of that.
All of that is correct no?
1. Codesmith is arranging letters of reference from OSLabs (there is a specific person mentioned in arranging I'm not disclosing their name)
2. The example presented to me evidence yesterday was not about a reference that took place yesterday
3. I'm not giving details of what this example was because even the type of reference, time, location, people involved I think could DOX who it is.
4. As far as I'm aware OSLabs is still providing reference checks and as far as I'm aware, the person signing them is still Phil. Someone sent me a letter from a few years ago signed by Phil and this is not about that si…
Can you clarify what you are asking? I don't want to mistake it and I'm not 100% sure. I wasn't informed of a specific person signing letters today in a specific situation on a specific letter, rather that Codesmith as a whole supports and instructs graduates on and how to prepare for OS Labs background checks when you are asked to verify "work experience" there.
I think people are interested in scams, my Netflix and HBO are full of scams and this is far more interesting than those scams because it's so polarizing - some people think this is fine and others think it's completely fraud.
When 80% of people get jobs it certainly helps, when like 20% of people get jobs and they see this stuff it has a real financial impact on them.
Codesmith took in about $80M over 10 years if they actually had 4000 paying students, so that's up there with some of the biggest ed-tech headlines I've seen.
Anyways, my understanding is Phil is still an advisor at Codesmith despite having a new full time day job.
The person who signed letters is Phil Troutman who was Codesmith's Head Instructor for 10 years and left recently.
Codesmith's placement staff "help coordinate" letters for you if you have trouble.
And OSLabs phone number is intended to go to Phil.
The instructions presented to me offer support for "work verification", "background checks", and more and indicate that Phil is the primary person who does background check calls.
**The board members on the site, look into them:** one is Codesmith's lawyer, two I beleive are Codesmith alumni who don't advertise it much but show up on alumni lists.
The "director" is not affiliated with Codesmith but I'm not sure if she works there, last I chatted with her she was "on leave" and she reported some security problems I had to Annie - Codesmith's Director of Outcomes and Admissions who is present here on Reddit.
Finally, OSLabs tax records sho…
It's a rolling window, so the team is reviewing all the applications and if they choose to move forward with someone they will offer an interview right away, which they continue to review more applications.
I would expect the first pass to be complete this week or next week with initial wave of interviews offered and as we see how many people pass interviews and meet the qualifications (graduation dates, etc...)
Hi, we are processing applications and doing interviews on a rolling basis throughout March.
I'm not on the selection team but the entire application is important, from your resume experience to your loom video.
Having a higher score is better but it's not necessary if you have a very strong video. And having a higher score alone isn't sufficient.
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
I was informed today that Codesmith is still signing letters of reference and background checks on behalf of OS Labs to confirm fake work experience.
I care less that people are lying on their resumes and care more the Codesmith has been participating in these lies for years and years.
Codesmith alumni, spread the word - 3 weeks of commits on a project isn't 7 months of unpaid work experience at OS Labs. Tell Codesmith this is unethical and let them know loud and clear.
People are sending me evidence of this stuff because maybe they are afraid to lose their jobs for being found out and it's sad.
If you feel guilty about this and don't want to be public - my DMs are open. I won't stand for this garbage behavior from people with no integrity.
Formation isn't a school and doesn't teach any concepts like that. We are a place to practice problems, get feedback, benchmark, enhance your job hunt and do mock interviews.
We believe there are tens of thousands of hours of excellent materials out there and we try to help you navigate that.
All of our efforts are out towards our product and you can see form our launches blog how much effort that is.
Codesmith doesn't have dynamic scheduling of 500 sessions a week, source thousands of job posts a week and provide personal recommends and network outreach, provide a job tracker tool that helps you prepare for upcoming interviews through personalized practice and interviews automatically, collect and read about a dozen feedback points per person every week, provide a personal algorithmic feed of things to work on, provide a custom built on platform collaborative coding environment suppo…
CIRR is dead - missing audited 2022 reports were due last December and they have gone radio silence on where they are 3 months later
I've been very critical of CIRR before and the problems with it's specification with very fair critical analysis.
This post is not that, this post is about me trying to stand up for people being manipulated by a shell company that appears to primarily represents one bootcamp - Codesmith - to create an illusion of validation in outcomes.
**One of the misunderstood aspects of CIRR is that initial results are NOT AUDITED. The results are for 20222 were submitted in March 2024 and the official audited results were due in December 2024.**
The last sign of life of CIRR I saw was in January, when a Codesmith advisor who is on CIRR's board changed the specification to make it looser on who they can exclude from statistics.
Yet no audited results were posted.…
I have dozens of screenshots and PDFs,.HTMl logs etc...but I don't have time to bundle it up, and I would also prefer discussing it with their team privately first so they can respond.
If they apologized and assured me it would never happen again I might just drop it.
The person's Reddit account was permanently suspended along with dozens of other accounts and a number of official Codesmith accounts as well. When all of the accounts were suspended I also noticed a bunch of accounts that have been harassing me for a year now for suspended too and since then I have had relatively little harassment on here.
I would love to publish a case study some time because the behavior is insane and hard to tell at first!
But revelaing this might also help the bad guys get away with it by understanding the sophistacted techniques I used :(
The fake accounts would warm up by posting and commenting…
Thanks for considering, I am very upset about Codesmith's behavioral and I'm sorry if I come across confrontational, I think we should all speak openly about Codesmith's outcomes and stories because even amongst the group of alumni I'm calling out above - those people on an individual basis are all really awesome people - working incredibly hard to have more impact and a better life (many with families), and don't want to come across as judging those people entirely. I'm judging Codesmith for selling those stories as a magic pill to change your life, instead of being transparent about how it all works.
I 100% assure you that no one got an SDEIII senior role at Amazon out of Codesmith with zero work experience.
SDEI - L4 is entry level there, SDEII - L5 is mid level. I know 2-3 people from Codesmith that got L5 jobs (and I think at least 2 are still there) and those are extreme edge cases out of 4000 people.
These aren't case you put on the website as a core feature of Codesmith.
The fact you call their Leadership Principles questions "bullshit questions" shows me how messed up and broken Codesmith is... taking ambitious people and making them feel like the job market is a "game" to get a high score on.
They don't set people up for good careers and with good long term mindsets. It's all a game where the ends justify the means.
You completely dodged my rambling about how people lie on their resumes to get jobs and it's a fact from my research. It's the elephant in the room. Amazing…
Those placements were accidents and people exaggerating on their resumes.
There isn't a single person with zero relevant experience who had an honest resume who got a senior role.
Did people get "senior" titled roles at Capital One (which map to entry level FAANG) by lying about their SWE experience and getting referred by other Codesmith grads and get coached on questions in a special Capital One channel? Yes.
Did people leverage past experience that maybe wasn't SWE work but had a lot of similar behavioral skills and call it "engineering" experience on their resume to squeeze into mid level roles? Yes.
Did most people put their 3 week long project as 8+ months of work experience? Yes.
Did people who were hourly TAs at Codesmith put down months of work experience as a Software Engineer at "CS Engineering" that Codesmith provided background checks for? Yes.
People who got these job…
It's been 7 months now and based on the people that have pinged me on and from this thread (not sure if it's circulating with a cohort) the placements haven't changed much and these cohorts were described as a ghost town and worse than ever placement rates - some saying they don't know anyone placed in their cohort.
**You knew at the time of posting that 2023 cohorts had been doing half as good as 2022 cohorts (40% 6 month placement rate) and you knew how the earliest 2024 cohorts were doing and terrible things were.**
I saw an ad last week saying that 2024 was great for outcomes and "you could be next".
Historically they never did that though as far as I know so I would t assume but this is awfully suspicious given then anecdotal evidence and the massive increase is ghost placements demands at least a clarification. like if it was legit I don't see why they wouldn't say Michael. this is absurd how we do even suggest this, we obviously are not committing fraud like that, and they haven't acknowledged it.
There was a bit of an issue because their CA 2023 report originally had 20% placements for 2023 grads which they updated to 42% by adding in like 40 to 60 people who didn't report salaries and were verified by LinkedIn.
I asked them about it and they didn't respond (while they responded to other questions, so it wasn't due to lack of receipt).
Apparently a contractor/advisor did the report so I asked them if it's possible all of those LinkedIn verifications were ACTUALLY OSP PROJECTS PORTRAYED AS WORK and not actual jobs, and they didn't reply to that either.
I started doing some analysis but I'm way too busy because I'm working on so many crazy AI features that are so exciting and cool I just doing have like an hour to do the actual number crunching, but I really want to know what's going on.
It's impossible the leadership doesn't know about these problems no? Like how could they mi…
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
33 is a pretty big cohort too for 2024. If this is true, I really wish people would do their fricken research and stop believing their bullshit marketing and leader.
I used to have way more pros and cons about Codesmith and things have degraded to much over 2024 starting when they laid off everyone and promised amazing changes that never happened.
You can follow my history. I'm pissed off now but back then I very rationally paused my endorsement of Codesmith in February when those layoffs happened and then a few months later when things continued to decline I actively recommended not going there.
Now the leader is writing a book and barely involved, grads are less and less prepared and alumni complain to me more and more about grads who are faking their resumes but not accompanying if with the grit and hustle needed to fake it til you make it.
Codesmith CEO: here's a thought experime…
This came up in my Youtube queue: [https://youtu.be/yZomz9vPqjg?si=QJ0DHU\_PrGEMMdHP&t=683](https://youtu.be/yZomz9vPqjg?si=QJ0DHU_PrGEMMdHP&t=683)
Apparently the CEO totally is transparent that it's not that he's "not a very good engineer" but he's "barely one at all" and that "the stuff I was teaching \[\] I was learning as I go", "when I was making my hard parts workshops I didn't know how a map function works"
So I guess it's not really a secret that he new practically nothing about engineering when starting Codesmith and he actually considers it a strength.
But he does claim that he made the Hard Parts from scratch. Which was late 2010s, so even if it's true that the original materials were copied, it seems he entirely changed to a first principals approach at some point long ago such that any recent Codesmith student went through original curriculum.
Great example here: [https://www.linkedin.com/posts/codesmith-llc\_programmer-coding-codingbootcamp-activity-7303912379589820416-c\_03](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/codesmith-llc_programmer-coding-codingbootcamp-activity-7303912379589820416-c_03)
"From conducting orchestras to software engineering"
1. The person's LinkedIn says they had 11 months of SWE experience prior to Codesmith and then 1.4 years of open source experience "software engineer" experience during Codesmith.
2. Then you read the blog post there and find out the person was an orchestra conductor with no experience prior to Codesmith
3. Then you ask a recruiter at Capital One that says to clear a background check for a "Senior Associate" role (which is not a Senior Software Engineer role there - which requires 4 years of experience), you need to have 2 years of verifiable SWE experience to get hired...
So something…
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
Don't get me started on this because I've been hounding them for literally years on this and it's been happening since 2019 https://www.reddit.com/r/TechLA/comments/b7xl98/codesmith_coding_bootcamp_scam_beware/
Every time I significantly push back you'll see like a blog post about someone who got a senior job right out of Codesmith, and they just adamantly adamantly believe this to the bitter end.
So I don't think they are lying but instead are delusional.
No leader there has a STEM degree, and no leader has been an engineer ever either in industry.
Enough people for $130K jobs in the past they made them believe they and the secret formula to creating mid level and senior engineers out of s bootcamp that it became their identity.
When your identity is attacked, you often defend completely irrationally.
There are a handful of people that have gotten those jobs. and then when you zo…
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
I've been a massive fan of apprenticeships (some are better than others though so you have to watch out).
You need 10000 hours to develop the taste needed to be a valuable engineer and a bootcamp gives you 1000. Doing apprenticeships for 2 years can get you almost there.
You can rush it and you have to put in the time.
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
It's not that at all.
They are gaslighting critics of Codesmith hahaha by countering facts with cherry picked numbers and then telling the critics they are wrong.
But the students are genuinely rewiring their thinking to believe they are mid level and senior engineers.
It takes 12 weeks and lots of tactics:
- if you are ever negative you do correction meetings to readjust your mindset to be positive
- You have to emoji like every post and an instructor apparently complained they didn't get enough emoji reactions for example.
- you are told you have imposter syndrome and the solution is to follow Codesmith's resume advice to fix it and to trust them because you have imposter syndrome and aren't thinking properly about your work so you have to trust Codesmith's way as the "reality"
This stuff actually works though! Like people systematically come out thinking this way and when Codesmit…
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
The way this has been framed to me:
1. the top couple of students usually get jobs quickly. they aren't on Reddit and they often aren't very engaged because they are in and out. others wonder why these people did Codesmith in the first place. when I've talked them I get a mix of responses: they were misled to believe Codesmith was more senior and they were way to advanced and we're advising the teachers, they needed some kind of structure and peers because doing it alone was emotionally challenging, and some people just wanted to do projects to refresh their skills and were misled that the codesmith projects were like work experience.
I hear people here saying that it wasn't really with it but that they enjoyed the community and didn't think it was a scam or entire waste of money, just probably wouldn't have done it in retrospect.
2. the 2nd tier of students get hired by Codesmith. T…