BREAKING NEWS: Codesmith 2024 six month outcomes preview released – GRADS NAVIGATING A TOUGH MARKET WITH OUTCOMES at $110k SALARY AVERAGE & $55k SALARY GROWTH
u/BayleeBaylee4578 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
When are you going to release your full outcomes data u/michaelnovati ?? SUPER interested to see how your students are doing in this market
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
I've explained this numerous times. We aren't a bootcamp and what we do doesn't fit into bootcamp reporting standards. We have subscriptions, we have people with interviews line up, as have people with super long job hunt timeframes, we have people with 1 year of experience and we have people with 20+ years of experience.
There is no single report format that will properly capture this data in a way that a new person could use to estimate anything, and it might do more harm than good if the person thinks they will get a job in 3 months and it ends up taking 6 for example.
We have 1-1 conversations with people about their goals and we try to advise on reasonable outcomes for them.
This takes more time and effort but it's essential given the nature of what we do.
Additionally:
You also made a mistake posting with an alt account that got instantly suspended by Reddit and then reposting as this account instead, and we (the mods) are going to discuss permanently banning you for manipulating the sub through fake accounts.
u/crimsonslaya wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
AI law doesn't sound real lmao 🤣
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Checkout Harvey. They think that AI is going to reduce the number of junior lawyers needed, and they want senior lawyers to be training it, but it will shift the role of a Lawyer.
u/_cofo_ wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
If you guys are not a bootcamp, What are you then? In what perspective should people consider what Codemisth is?
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Formation is an interview prep mentorship program that doesn't teach anything and everyone has a different experience. Our main competitor is Pathrise and with some overlap with Interviewing io and Hello Interview. The key is that engineers who come to us need to be already trained in the practical skills and we help them prepare for interviews and land the job.
Codesmith is a bootcamp primarily focused on people without SWE work experience changing careers, or otherwise with no SWE work experience. Codesmith is training underlying technical skills required by the job based on a fixed curriculum that all students do.
There is a small overlap for atypical cases. We take some people with no SWE full time work experience who have the circumstances where we think we can help. Codesmith takes some people with work experience who don't have underlying employable skills or project experience.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Top level comments:
1. How many of the 102 offers were people job hunting over 1 year who would not be included in any reporting
2. 102 offers is a significant decline of offers per day from past reporting and a further decline deterioration of outcomes. can you clarify if this is that the job market is even worse in the end of 2024 or if this is because of significantly lower enrollment at Codesmith?
3. Similarly, $110,000 is possibly the lowest salary you've reported in 5 years or something. inflation has been running rampant and entry-level salaries have increased as well during that time. so can you give more explanation into this number? are people taking worse jobs or are they taking adjacent jobs that pay less that aren't software engineer jobs? or maybe just more insights into that number.
4. Why not publish preliminary H1 6-month placement rates now that 6 months have fully passed for all h1/2024 people? you should have some indication to compare that to 2023 to show if the placement rate is better or worse as an early sign for people evaluate their odds of success.
Overall It's good to see some recent numbers so that people can make decisions based on more recent trends as the market changes so fast right now.
u/OkTeach4 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
How’d the call with u/michaelnovati go? Michael anything to add?
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I've been on contact with Codesmith and they haven't offered a call.
I'm still trying to get answers for harder questions, like why the ghosting rate went from 15% to about 65% in their CA government report and what caused that.
They have been evading the hard questions but I have a channel of communication open.
I feel like this post from Annie is trying to change the goal posts now from CIRR placement rates and salaries to overall offer count and salary increases. These new metrics might make sense but they are changing the goal posts to try to frame the numbers better instead of being transparent.
They know preliminary H1 2024 6 months placement rates for example and haven't shared them - which would be extremely relevant given their past data, and instead made up new metrics, just like the bootcamps they criticized who failed during Codesmith's rise to success.
u/_cofo_ wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
So Formation is an after-bootcamp resource that helps people prepare for successful job interviews. You could partner with bootcamps too.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Currently we require 2+ years of SWE work experience or we will decline working with you, so no brand new CS or bootcamp grads.
But in theory yes, and we have informal connections to many bootcamps who recommend Formation to alumni in their future job hunts and we have positive relationships - even though I'm equally hard on them about their outcomes and many have closed or paused/
u/Successful-Divide655 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
\-asks Michael about outcome numbers-
"We're going to look into banning you"
lol...
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
If you know me, I'm more than happy to write paragraphs of explanation. Using fake accounts to manipulate discussion is a pattern that Reddit is onto, banning dozens of Codesmith affiliated accounts, including two of their "official" ones.
It has nothing to do with me - it's just plain bad behavior.
u/ericswc wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
This tracks. I have my own learning program (not a bootcamp) and I advise some bootcamps.
There are jobs out there. The challenges are:
1. The bar has gone up. Where before mediocre people were finding work, they no longer are. More rigor is required.
2. AI slop is burying can
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
If you map out Codesmith's outcomes from 2021 -> 2024 with public data, you see 6 month placement rates dropping from like 90 -> 80 -> 70 -> 40%, you see salaries dropping like $125K -> $130K -> $120K -> $117K -> $110K
The trend doesn't look good.
BUT some people are getting jobs! The jobs do exist.
However I think it's going to take small bespoke programs working with the right people to get to the right place, and no program will systematically produce results.
These outcomes are the nail in the coffin to to speak because we've flipped from 'more likely than not' getting a job to not getting a job (when comparing apples to apples) so even the 'best bootcamp' can't more likely than not place someone in 6 months.
u/BExpost wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I love code smith running to this subreddit for damage control…just give it up yall
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I dunno, I think it's totally fine and good for Codesmith to make a case for themselves, but I completely agree their response is more defensive and out of touch than making a legit case.
Making a case for themselves would be something like:
1. Codesmith staff work really hard to help people change careers successfully
2. For the right people, they feel confident in placing you, but for the wrong people, it's not working out anymore and there are no more shortcuts
3. Codesmith is focused on finding the right people, and if you want to see if that's you - apply and work with them on that.
4. Here are ANECDOTAL (not systematic) examples of what that looks like for people that it works for, and here are their backgrounds, LinkedIns, and strategies employeed to get jobs, and if you think you align with those, it might be a good fit for you too.
\------
Instead the defensive responses that don't answer questions, providing vague "trust the process" testimonials- AMAs - and videos, and are just flat out terrible outcomes, good market or not, just come across like they are defending and covering up all of the allegations, like using resume exaggeration to sneak into jobs, or fudging the numbers with non-responsive LinkedIn verifications. Fake accounts on Reddit and LinkedIn to promote content.
I asked them if there is a chance that 3 week long OSP projects can be mistaken for LinkedIn placements by their contractor and got no response to that question, just ignored.
I wish it was all the better case above, it would make my Reddit experience much more pleasant and I have no idea whose running marketing there.
For all of the positivity their preach to student, they don't seem to preach that behind the scenes, and it destroys their integrity in people's minds :(
u/Nsevedge wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
To be fair, haven't you attacked me blatantly for us having the exact same approach of our program, not selling with guarantees, and provided heavily extended support?
I'm simplifying, but keeping the point.
Additionally, in complete support of the nonsensical accounts who shi
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I don't know anything about your program :S, did I attack it? And where so I can check?
Zooming out though the point is that if you pay people on Upwork to post on Reddit and make fake accounts to upvote and like your LinkedIn posts, it's not good behavior and it catches up to you over time and has nothing to do with me, I'm not forcing you to do that.
The Codesmith CEO could have emailed me 2 years ago and said 'hey, our team really doesn't like your tone on Reddit, can we chat so we can learn more about each others perspectives'. Someone from Codesmith did reach out to me and never replied after I insisted that we have to agree that I'm not competing with them to continue conversations.
If a whole team of leaders are making up their own story about me and don't even try to acknowledge my point of view, I can't really control that.
I think you reached out to me too and while I don't love phone calls I'm happy to async chat with you about your program and you can tell me if you think anything I said was offensive to you so I can understand.
u/jhkoenig wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I struggle to believe this information, given the current job market flooded with FAANG layoffs and exploding CS graduation rates from T50 universities. I think that some data does not match other data. It seems that the average starting salary was $110K and the next year they re
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Salary increase over previous job is a good metric to use in general because it's demonstrating the value the career change had.
It's not a CIRR metric, it's not audited, it has no rules or guidelines, but it's a good metrics. The problem we have here is presenting that along side audited data can make it seem like all of the data is equally valid. I don't see ANY KIND OF DISCLAIMER EXPLAINING HOW IT'S CALCULATED (which is the non-lawyer legal advice I would give them)
u/jhkoenig wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Thanks for the clarification! The line "$55,031 average annual salary increase" might have been more clear if the author had said "$55,031 average annual salary increase over previous job" as you did. To be even more clear, possibly include the lack of pay, if any, while the stud
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Yeah all great points. It's a good stat but it needs explanation, and this is like many things at Codesmith and why I push so hard, it's excellent intentions - executed poorly - and they fight back and brand it as if it's great and disparage people who hold them to a high bar for questioning them.
u/sheriffderek wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I'd like to hear more about this question.
What do the possible answers mean to you?
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Well I'll try discussing lol.
A lot of people say the 'STEM people had an easier time' but I actually think the quality of your undergrad matters. From Codesmith's data, only a tiny number of people didn't have a degree. I think the ranking of undergrad school matters.
For example, if you have an ivy league undergrad majoring in law or music, you probably have a lot of friends in tech, are very bright, and have a lot of soft skills to succeed.
u/antonIgudesman wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
That’s pretty misleading on their part then - this would be like a summer bball camp advertising that many of their attendees got D1 college offers, but forgot to mention they were all 6’10
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
I mean do the math... $110K average salary, $55K increase, means that people make on average $65K coming in.
Now $65K isn't a 6'10 high school kid, but it's the median outcome of a lot of OTHER BOOTCAMPS.
I'm not sure if they include $0 in there or if they exclude them - again - no methodology is problematic and legally risky for them - but if they don't then it could be that half the people have no job because they quit and went all in, and half the people make $120K.
This is all speculation and exactly why publishing data is can of worms. You have to public reliable data or it means nothing except for marketing tricks and without disclaimers - legally playing with fire.
u/SecretaryNo6911 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
it seems like you guys are pre-selecting people that can probably already get a job in this market and are just giving them the confidence boost + some side project they probably could have done on their own. I respect the hustle, but just tell it like it is please.
People can'
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I agree that zero to placement doesn't make any rational sense anymore without having corporate support and potential jobs lined up.
By "you guys" I'm assuming you mean Formation, and Formation doesn't teach any vocational skills, so yes, you have to have employable programming skills coming in and our job is to help you level up to more impactful roles and pass interviews in a competitive market. So our entry bar will always change on paper as it's philosophically "already has hirable programming skills"
u/Rude_Yogurtcloset_33 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
>So the 55K number is the average base salary of incoming residents before the program began. This is followed by a $110k average salary post graduation.
Thanks for the clarification. I still have one small issue with this number though - isn't it only taking into account the gr
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
People can count as placements if they ghost and don't report salaries but have a job listed on LinkedIn. So it's a subset of placements that reported salaries, not just placements.
In their CA 2023 corrected report, 65% of people in the report did NOT report salaries in 2023 but were considered placements.
u/Standard_Life_2629 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Hi Michael,
Me again! :)
Our CIRR results will be out soon, and we're looking forward to sharing the detailed data with you.
You’re right, offers and average salaries are down, which isn’t surprising given the massive tech downturn.
No one, including Codesmith, has been immun
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
I also agree 110k salaries are great roles!
The part I'm pushing Codesmith on is the trend and the marketing message.
If you tell people they are mid level and senior engineers and the salaries have dropped 130k -> 120k -> 110k, it just doesn't add up.
It's not true and it's misleading.
For example, at Formation, you can see in our 2024 report from December, we had a $110K INCREASE in first year total comp (see the exact calculation mechanism on our blog), increase from 50% top tier in 2023 -> 76% top tier in 2024, and people are getting ACTUAL mid-level and senior top tier roles.
**So the market improved a ton in 2024 from our point of view.**
Codesmith is blaming a bad 2024 market for worse results than 2023, but it's a bad market for **entry level software engineers** not a bad market for all.
**Sorry, this is rambling - but my consistent point for 2-3 years now has been that if Codesmith stopped trying market people as mid level and senior engineers and instead actually focused on preparing people for entry level jobs, your proven track record and reputation might actually help you place those people better than others and lead the market for entry level, compared to computer science schools and bootcamps.**
I still have no idea remotely why, but you all pushed back so much on this - as if the mid-level and senior thing is so core to your identity you can't give it up - and keep defaming me a 'competitor who is jealous of the best', when I all I personally want is to work with you and help people have more impact in the world.
The good market of 2021/2022 made you falsely believe Codesmith was better than it was (not that it was bad by any means), and instead of "thanking the market" for the boost you said it was all Codesmith and how Codesmith is in a league of its own. Now that the market is tanking your outcomes it's the 'markets fault' and not Codesmith's fault.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Our full year report has been on our blog since December.
I think I wrote tens of thousands of words explaining our outcomes and there is no question I will not answer honestly.
Our main goals are salary increase and top tier placements because that's what people pay us to achieve.
We don't have a concept of a placement rate because it doesn't make sense for an interview prep program with a month to month membership that allows ramping up and ramping down week to week. It's not useful.
I've explained this to people on your team repeatedly and I struggle to believe you don't comprehend what I'm saying. If you have specific questions I try to elucidate or if you disagree and think we are bootcamp that can publish these things then explain why and I can respond or clarify misconceptions.
Better yet talk to your alumni that have done Formation and find A SINGLE PERSON who thinks Formation is a bootcamp. Ask the ones that came back twice to Formation why they paid us twice for our services a second time.
Someone told me you have a slogan "seek first to understand, then be understood"... I suggest applying that here.
u/Standard_Life_2629 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I think it's really simple. How many folks come into your program - and how many are successfully placed?
A month-to-month membership is not an excuse for a lack of transparency in your outcomes.
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
I can't tell if you are trolling, not understanding, or just have such a fixed mindset you aren't trying to understand.
How does that work exactly if someone is paying for a month subscription and someone else is paying for an unlimited membership with the goal of getting a job in 12 months.
What would either of those people get from an average placement time?
If someone has a three month subscription, what clock do we use for placement, 12 months from the end of that? What if they have a bundle and pay to extend a month and then get placed? Isn't that worse than if they got placed in the 3 month bundle they were hoping for even though they had a great job.
I believe most of our Fellows have full time day jobs, many do a couple sessions a week and have a long term timeframe and take a long time to place.
On the other hand a bunch of people were engineers who were laid off who are preparing full time to land a role and want one very fast.
Some people come to us trying to get the first job they can, others come to us with a smaller number of target companies. Some people don't care if they get a job or not and want us to get them in shape for an upcoming interview, hoping to increase their odds and not guarantee to pass (no one can do that).
Finally, our unlimited plans work with you until you get a job, which could be a month a month or a year, and while people's goals vary, if they don't change their goals/life circumstances and leave happily without a job, they stay with us until they place... again messing up an overall placement rate.
The only sensible thing is to break out a bunch of these cases and try to give placement times for each case and there are too many to manage and too small samples in most.
Now if you agree with me or at least believe that I understand our program offerings and you don't and give me the benefit of the doubt, the question to me that we want to answer is:
Given my goals, what is the likelihood I achieve it by time X? And we don't have a way to estimate that in a report right now so we talk to people 1-1.
If you are wondering why people leave Formation without a job?
These are estimates from my personal recollection and not official numbers, we don't have these numbers in aggregate so I'm estimating.
Of the people who leave (which I don't know the overall percentage because of a lack of fixed timeframe but I would estimate at 20%),
About 1/2 are in their first trial week and don't really count - some of them come back later and they realize the pacing was not what they expected and can't do it right now, some wee misaligned on goals, some what areas of mentorship we don't support.and misunderstood.
The other group is about half of the reamining people who have changing life circumstances, like an illness, family illness, moving out of the country, moving for partners, family changes, divorce, etc...
The rest are people who aren't happy later on. People who are interview ready now but struggle to get interviews and give up but still wanted a job. People who don't process well and get stuck and after trying a bunch of things we can't figure out how to help.
We aren't perfect and have many things day to day we want to improve and we collect mandatory feedback continuously in every interaction, and then we make improvements instantly or quickly. And then we might break something else, and we get feedback and make improvements.Wr ship hundreds of improvements every week on a continuous basis.
u/LetterPale258 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
This data is fabricated. I attended codesmith in 2022. There are TONS of graduates without jobs or that have gone back to their old fields. I would say 20% of codesmith grads end up getting swe position, and even that is high.
This whole post is written with handpicked data. Fu
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
I have an email thread with all of their leaders, asked them twice about why the ghosting rate (number of included placements who did not report salaries) went from 15% in 2022 to 65% for 2023 data in their government report and while they responded to numerous other questions they completely ignored this question with no response.
I wouldn't say the entire data is a lie but I would agree with you it's 'fabricated' in the sense that it's manipulated, massaged data, that was selected to tell a story, rather than just tell you how things are.
u/Standard_Life_2629 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Hi Michael,
Me again! :)
Our CIRR results will be out soon, and we're looking forward to sharing the detailed data with you.
You’re right, offers and average salaries are down, which isn’t surprising given the massive tech downturn.
No one, including Codesmith, has been immun
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
>Our team is very focused on the bigger picture, being a rigorous and accessible pathway for a new gen of technologists able to help meet this moment (arguably the 4th industrial revolution)
Your team should spend more time on the ground with students and less time with the bigger picture. If you want to only work on the bigger picture, go into academia or politics.
Otherwise don't take peoples' $22.5K and use that money to fund your "bigger picture" explorations and ideas, or to fund the creation of new AI/ML programs.
VC, loans, and outside funding is meant for investing the future. Your students are paying to get jobs, not paying for developing future programs and so the team can go to conferences like Davos and write books.
I haven't made a penny of salary or compensation from my company in 5.5 years since day 1, and we have never had a profit, because every penny given to us is invested in the the experience. How much of the $80M Codesmith has taken in over 10 years has its CEO taken home instead of reinvested into the company?
I'm all for constantly learning and constant evolution, but execution matters too.
If I point out mathematical errors and data inconsistencies, don't ignore them in favor of the 'future', because there will be not future if you don't get your stuff together.
u/smells_serious wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
So good. Lay it out for 'em.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I've brought it up directly to their leaders a couple of times now and I'm not getting a response or acknowledgement on it. I'm not being mean, I'm trying to give them a strategy that recognizes the value they create and focuses the energy on that value.
They have been losing staff members left right and center and hardly have anyone left anymore, and I really feel like if they don't change their tune they will cease to exist soon enough.
But they have been pushing mid level and senior for 10 years now and it might just be the hill they are willing to die on - would rather not exist than focus on entry level placements.