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I miss the good old days :(

r/codingbootcamp

u/sheriffderek wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

OK -- but I've gotta respectfully push back on this a bit. You're a really smart guy, u/michaelnovati. Is it really that black and white? >2023-Present: market cooled bootcamps reputations destroyed, no one is hiring bootcamp grads, no one is falling for it. I don't think this

u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
ELABORATED ANSWERS: 1. No one is falling for it: a - Applications and enrollments to bootcamps have absolutely tanked. I can't give too much away in my sourcing here but I have hot off the press anecdotes and it seems to be falling off a cliff from already painful numbers. b - I don't know any company that his historically hired bootcamp grads that is knowingly hiring them (i.e. they aren't faking it and getting fake letters of reference) other than apprenticeships and the anti-DEI shift has diminished or ended a lot of those. 2. Market cooled: a - it cooled for entry level SWE roles from 2020-2022 and particularly bootcamp grads b - agencies don't hire for level and they hire for specific skills so I expect agency hiring hasn't changed much and wouldn't push back on that. 3. No one is hiring bootcamp grads: Ok sure "no one" is too harsh. It's extremely rare to see job postings with requirements "or bootcamp grads" in them. The big companies have forgotten about bootcamps AFAICT. I think you should focus on web dev and design, because maybe that section of the market has more opportunities and I would clearly differentiate it from SWE. 4. Multiple valid paths: The key is reproducible. Are these paths working for 5 people here and 5 people there, or are they working for 20,000 people. The bootcamp **INDUSTRY** only works if there are systematic paths for TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, and it doesn't if we're taking a person here and a person there. I reiterate that a program that is small and constantly fighting for the path for a couple people here and there, that could change every few months, **can survive,** but that doesn't mean companies should be giving false hope that the industry is saved. I saw a Codesmith video from early 2024 and one of their leaders said '2023 was rougher, 2024 is looking better, the vc daily news is showing incredible funding, everything is bouncing bad fast, the future is looking great' and this is absolute bullshit and 2024 was a terrible year for Codesmith where the majority of their employees left or were laid off and it continues to fall apart. I get messaged every week from 2024 students who are like 'Michael you were so right and I drank the koolaid and didn't believe you their career services was a scam when I needed them most, I wish I could prevent others from falling for this' (this is rearranging words to protect identity of a message I got this week). Like I love small placed like Launch School (no formal affiliation) and Perpetual Education (no formal affiliation) that that stay small and find paths for people, but I need to defend against larger programs trying to convince people that everything is great in the market.