Codesmith launched cohort 2 of the Future Code NYC program (free bootcamp for NYC residents who make un $50K and have zero coding experience)
SOURCE: [https://www.become-irreplaceable.dev/future-code](https://www.become-irreplaceable.dev/future-code)
NOTE!: This is not an endorsement of Codesmith - I've been (and still am) very critical of Codesmith for: 1. lack of transparency around outcomes (in that they are extremely defensive and reactive about their declining outcomes, instead of being transparent and attracting the right people), 2: misleading grads with zero experience that they are senior engineers and that their 4 week long project is so hard it makes them a mid-level engineer, 3: when looking at LinkedIns of graduates the vast majority represent their 4 week projects as 11 months+ of 'work experience' and my opinion is that this harms the industry, and is responsible for peo…
When I spot check these people, I see their OSP looking like over 1 year of work experience on their LinkedIns because they have been job hunting so long and I think this is the dirty secret people don't like talking about a lot. People who get their jobs this way don't want anyone to know out of potentially losing that job, and Codesmith always downplays these things as not relevant - instead telling you how your capacities are strong and mid-level/senior so your resume is fine as long as it demonstrates that. Companies aren't falling for it anymore for 3-4 months projects but when people have 1-2 years on there I think some are still getting through (even though it's fewer than before).
Protip: when you see placements - look at their LinkedIn and see what they say there. I often see people celebrate their "first engineering job!" but their LinkedIn says like 4 years Self-employed soft…
Thanks for sharing and this is consistent with what I hear from people (plus some ghoster placements you don't see)
Rest assured if their CIRR 2023 numbers released in March look suspicious I will loudly call it out publicly. People need to know how things are right now and Codesmith is extremely non transparent about it, and in fact the opposite - makes it sound like everything is fine and everyone is getting senior jobs.
If they go to someone's LinkedIn and the job has a start start, then they can count that as a placement.
Codesmith's auditor called LinkedIn the "gospel"... which makes me want to flip a table because many Codesmith grads have all kinds of embellished "jobs" listed.
The people I know there tell me there are hardly any placements anymore and it's becoming a ghost town.
Is Codesmith acknowledging this and talking about it?
No, they double down on one off edge case placements from years ago to try to make an illusion that everyone is getting mid level and senior jobs.
The more I dig, the more I see it's an illusion... fake accounts promoting AMAs, etc...
There are incredible alumni who went to Codesmith and they deserve credit for that. But it's like not at all the normal outcome right now and this charade has to end.
I'm waiting with popcorn to see Codesmith's CIRR 2023 outcomes in Feb/March 2025, specifically some of those fields like "did not respond" (but were included because of LinkedIn verification).
It will be a humbling experience for them to face reality instead of trying to convince everyone water isn't wet but water is gold.
I don't think they advertise themselves as "impartial", they are a not a charity but a 'non profit business league' which is AKA a lobbying group promoting the interests of an industry = bootcamps.
I don't think anything about them is impartial... the spec was updated by a former head of marketing at Codesmith lol.
In terms of general advice, if you have a current job, I would try to contribute some general code, or write some code to build software tools that help you do your job - ideally in the main codebase using the main stack - and getting code review from SWEs. If you do that already then you have an even better shot at transitioning.
Maybe obvious, but do you have the option at your startup to talk to them about transitioning and maybe doing it there over time too and not switching companies?
Hi, I'm a co-founder of Formation and can give my opinions from what I've seen.
Your case is borderline and it depends on your Data Engineer experience and your goals. If one of your goals is to be a Data Engineer at Netflix or Meta (where it's a distinct job but very SWE-adjacent/related and compensated the same) and then convert internally at those companies, then I would say MAYBE. We have a handful of people in that bucket and we can help, but we don't do any data-specific interview prep. We have a handful of mentors who are Staff+ Data Engineers at FAANG but we don't have any practice materials for it.
If you strictly want to be a backend engineer, then I have more questions. If you are already getting INTERVIEWS at some solid tech companies on your own and need a boost or help preparing for the interviews then 100% yes.
If you are struggling to get interviews then I would recomm…
CIRR 2025 Standards out - does not close loopholes to force transparency, only change is one that extends the list of reasons to exclude people from the data and increase placement rates on paper - I don't think anyone cares anymore though :(
CIRR Standards for 2025 are out [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zuNf-58OcxVyY1KnTxnfqhfftiNexb6S/view?usp=drive\_link](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zuNf-58OcxVyY1KnTxnfqhfftiNexb6S/view?usp=drive_link)
In a year where bootcamps are disappearing left right and center and pivoting to AI programs and abandoning SWEs, I would have wanted CIRR to tighten up a number of the loopholes in their standard that schools get to exploit.
Here is a list of issues I pointed out last year: [https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1bug0lv/linebyline\_critique\_of\_cirr\_standard\_document/](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1bug0lv/li…
Hi, we work with people with salaries in that range yeah. If you are making over $200K a year, at a top tier tech, you have to look at performance bonuses and stock as well. For example the typical mid level Meta engineer offer is around $330K right now but the base is like $185K and the rest is stock and bonuses At the senior level, the bases are into the $200Ks and TC around $450 to $500K.
We don't guarantee your outcome or any specific base salary but the performance based pricing is $5K upfront and the rest is $0 to $15K extra depending on the INCREASE in BASE salary so some people with high bases coming in choose that option because they don't expect to increase their salary enough to hit the $10K tier and if they do then they made so much money they'll happily pay more.
These numbers are based on bigger cities and many top companies require you to move right now. If you get a re…
I gave the advice somewhere else but staying at one company and showing numerous promotions is a simple way to pass the 20 second resume reviews.
Interview performance, I use a personal trainer analogy. You are asking how to get into shape. You can get a cheap gym membership and do it yourself (Neetcode or Algo Expert membership), you can get a personal trainer (1-1 mentor), you can join a premium gym like Equinox that has classes and trainers and a lot of options but is expensive (Formation), you can learn on your own through books and youtube videos about how to get into shape (which works if you have discipline but might take a lot longer)
You can pay month to month like a gym membership (this is typically senior engineers who have interviews lined up already and a short timeframe as it's very costly if you did month to month for a long time) or a $5K upfront and variable fee based on how much you increase your base salary from your last job when placed ($0 to $15K extra).
We haven't taken fresh bootcamp grads with no experience since 2023 and earlier (with a a single digit handful of except cases).
I really wish I wasn't doom and gloom but we (not just me but my entire team) have robust networks, and it's insanely hard for bootcamp grads right now.
So it's good for Formation because bootcamp grads have to take whatever job they can get right now, and then in a few years they have various gaps that we are perfect to help fill in gaps they need for really great tech job they wanted but couldn't get initially.
Not everyo…
If you have 2 years or more of legit SWE work experience on your resume then you are in good shape to consider Formation. We can't change your experience, so if you have the experience then we help you 1) practice the computer science fundamentals all hyper-focused on getting you to pass top tier technical interviews and on, 2) figuring out what parts of your experience are most impressive to top tier tech and practicing framing those with top tier engineers or hiring managers (both technically and behavioral)
I've heard this narrative at Codesmith a few times: traditionally non tech companies need to become tech companies so they are hiring tons of engineers.
1. These companies are not hiring the best of the best (because their business doesn't have high enough margins to pay what FAANG pays), so if you want to be a best of the best engineering, you need to go to a top company and learn from the best. Even if there are more jobs here, you might be slowing down your career by taking them, especially if you are ambitious.
2. A lot of these non-tech companies outsource to top companies by buying their products and integrating them. They want to buy the best software from DataBricks because they can't remotely hire the same talent as DataBricks to build similar software in house. They also outsource more development to contracting firms abroad. So the growth in need for programming doesn't nece…
If you have a degree, internships is #1. If you didn't do any internships a bootcamp might be able to help, but you would be better off just making a group of 5 people and making a startup on your own and taking it as far as you can. Codesmith is a bootcamp that has like 7 weeks of lectures and the rest is projects with others, and you are paying $22K to go there... you could just find the equally talented people in the Slack who are admitted to Codesmith, and leave and do a startup with them for 4 months, put it in your resume, etc... and put the $100K total combined tuition cost towards founding the startup, ads, cloud infra etc...
If you give me a group of 20 people who are paying $22K, I'll take their $500K and run a company for them that they own 1/20th of and they will be much better off.
If I disregard AI then I would say that nothing at all would change and it's the new normal. And it's likely the new normal from "traditional SWE" roles.
I think schools like Launch School that are very small and take a very long time to get into will produce exceptions to the norm and that's about it.
I'm more optimistic in AI creating a ton of new jobs that are tech-adjacent but not tech jobs. And that people will need to transition from their non-tech job into these roles. E.g. accountant -> AI enabled accountant. Kind of like how accountants BEFORE Microsoft Excel had to learn Excel and now it's just a given. A ton of accountants will have to learn AI-enabled tools and it will be a given.
Now SWE bootcamps might be done and over with, but maybe AI bootcamps that **VERY CLEARLY IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS TRAINING YOU FOR ADJACENT JOBS AND NOT SWE JOBS** might be able to help people ge…
This is somewhat similar to what Codesmith (their competitor for "top bootcamp") does as well, called the "Where are they now report".
I don't see the complete methodology, but these kinds of reports can be extremely bias. I haven't seen them audit and track the number of people who did NOT reply, so all the people who failed out, gave up, changed jobs don't reply and they take an average of people who DID reply.
Just like any other reports, like CIRR, just because it looks legit it doesn't mean you shouldn't think critically and try to understand the words being used. Just like CIRR was created as a marketing group for bootcamps to promote bootcamps, and Course Report gets paid by bootcamps to send people to them (and wouldn't exist without bootcamps), thinking critically is extremely important in understanding the way things are.
Things to watch out for:
1. Not showing how many pe…
Thanks for sharing. In my opinion, this is the key sentence: "I don't think any of them can live up to their promises reliably"
Who is to say those people, e.g. who worked on wall street, couldn't have gotten jobs on their own or for far cheaper?
Bootcamps that cost like $22K for 13 weeks is crazy expensive, if the correlative factor to getting a job is luck + background. Maybe paying for a network increases your luck, and when it works, is worth $100K, but $22K just averages that out across 5 people - one of whom gets lucky and the rest are ripped off.
The AI programs rolling out, like the one at Codesmith is $4600 for ONE MONTH at 15 hours a week! Even more expensive per hour...
**Anyways, my point is that the bootcamp model is broken and doesn't work anymore because most don't deliver fundamental value for their cost.**
If you take all the harvard grads who want to switch to SWE,…
Hey, yeah CIRR is business league responsible to supporting the businesses of it's bootcamp members - it's not impartial.
1. CIRR has only 3 reporting companies left, one of which had like 15 grads in 2022, one is in Indonesia and didn't report FY 2022 properly, so **Codesmith IS CIRR at this point**.
2. CIRR changing the standards last year to report 360 day outcomes instead of 180 day outcomes was a massive coverup to conceal terrible H2 2022 outcomes. Since Codesmith filed H1 2022 and FY 2022 outcomes, you can calculate the H2 2022 outcomes from that data and they did indeed tank really bad.
3. Not only is a Codesmith Advisor on the board, but she brought in other board members who are friendly with her
4. A former Codesmith grad was temporarily working for CIRR to rebuild their new website after they got locked out and lost all their old website stuff.
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I…
McDonalds sells hamburgers and STK sells hamburgers but it doesn't mean all hamburgers are the same.
Covering a topic so nuanced as DS&A doesn't mean anything.
At Formation, we do Interview prep and we don't teach anything so it's not a direct comparison, but people tend to spend months just on data structures and algorithms alone to get to a top-tier company bar. So a bootcamp that has a module that is even a week doesn't mean that you're checking off the box that you are good to go for a data structures and algorithms.
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
I replied with direct numbers to backup my claims from CIRR reports and I don't appreciate you trying to gaslight me in public and ignoring that data.
While a lot of what I state is a personal opinion, I clearly labelled my CIRR analysis as fact and if I made a mistake in my analysis, it was unintentional and I'm open to correcting, but I feel like those facts are clear that H2 2022 outcomes tanked from H1 2022.
And I have strong evidence tying someone named "Will S." to paying for someone on Upwork to comment on Reddit who said negative things about me/my company on Reddit under the same account name. I would call those facts too, other than proving "Will S." is Will Sentance the Codesmith CEO and not another Will S, and I do not have evidence of who "Will S." is on Upwork.
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
I see 78.6% placed in 180 days in H1 2022 (301 grads) and 70.1% in FY 2022 (732 graduates). So that means that about a 62% placement rate in H2 2022.
79% -> 62% is a tanking placement rate. And that was a relatively better 2022 grads.
Anecdotally and based on numbers I can find - which are not official and not necessarily accurate, show 2023 grads 180 day placements with something below 50%. And since this number should have been known internally since June 2024 (with at least an estimate) they are free to clear this up for the record. Even if they don't have all the data in yet because they are delayed, if they even have 50% in 180 days already they can let us know that.
I really won't listen to any marketing spins on this that make it sound good and anyone trying to do that needs an integrity check.
Codesmith can go to town saying how they are doing better than OTHER BOOTCAMPS but…
Can you clarify if you are saying H2 2022 outcomes did not tank from H1 2022 outcomes?
Because Codesmith published an official H1 2022 CIRR report and a FY 2022 CIRR reports it's simple math to deduce the H2 2022 outcomes and they decreased no? Are you saying I'm wrong and need to correct that and made a mistake?
Showing a large increase in people ghosting post placement for H2 who were confirmed via LinkedIn as appearing to get a job and their salaries weren't included?
Anyways, in a market where App Academy has paused, Turing plans on shutting down in 2025, Launch Academy paused, BloomTech paused, Launch School has lower enrollment but surviving and discussing its challenges openly, Code Up shut down, Epicodus shut down, Hack Reactor has massive layoffs and is unrecognizable.
Codesmith is the only one that keeps delusionally telling people everything is okay and people aren't fall…
Codesmith's 2023 CIRR report showed tanking H2 2022 results (but they were averaged into a full year) so I expect their 2024 report to be equally tanking, unless CIRR changes the rules again.
Their 180 placement rate absolutely tanked and people post 360 days are excluded from the reports.
Codesmith randomly shared outcomes from a carefully chosen window of April 2024 to August 2024 in violation of CIRR and haven't updated that, and even those were really bad, so I can't imagine the outcomes are good right now.
Now they are adding in alumni's future jobs in their Slack reporting making some of those jobs look like first jobs to boost morale as the number of people getting first jobs within 6 months is very poor.
Currently not recommending any bootcamps overall for everyone and only recommending specific ones to specific people based on their personal circumstances.
Unfortunately there have been so many downsizings and meetings that and layoffs that even a bootcamp that was good six months ago but be completely different now.
Someone on YouTube just started Codesmith this week and said it seemed like a "cult" and their instructors can't answer basic questions and the CEO is never around and the person seemed very upset. And while I've always criticized Codesmith, it seems to be getting worse and worse the more they shed staff. I used to recommend them as a top bootcamp and paused when they made major cutbacks in February and promised tons of changes. Then officially recommended avoiding them after they didn't make many changes and started new marketing campaigns doubling down on their mediocre…
Course Report "Best Bootcamp of 2024" awards appear to be a scam to me (in my personal opinion). Don't fall for it.
I saw a bootcamp and it's CEO produly talking about how they got a Best Bootcamp of 2024 award from Course Report and were so proud of their team for getting the award.
I looked into this a bit more.
1. DOZENS OF BOOTCAMPS (like any legitimate bootcamp it appears) got a best bootcamp of 2024 award. It was hard to find common bootcamps that did NOT get the award.
2. It appears that all or almost all of the bootcamps that pay Course Report for marketing got the award (2U bootcamps didn't and are shutting down)
3. One of the bootcamps that got the award had ONE REVIEW IN ALL OF 2024 and somehow still got the award.
4. Another bootcamp paid their graduates with gift cards to write reviews and Course Report still gave them a best bootcamp award.
**54 out of the first 100 lis…
The statement is a bit hyperbolized but it's true.
Bootcamp grads resumes get thrown in the trash and it's why you see grads from places like Codesmith not mentioning at all that they went there and putting 3 week long group projects as 1 years of work experience instead.
It's so sad to me when I see someone proudly talk about their "first SWE job" bootcamp placement and then you look them up on LinkedIn and see "3 years as SWE at self employed" (some made up experience).
This kind of thing has exhausted the industry and they now throw bootcamp resumes on the trash.
It's harsh but true and you have to figure out how to navigate the industry instead of pretending this isn't true and being delusional.
Yeah it's expensive and it's not like we have some magic spell to cast to hand you a job either.
The goal is to increase your annual compensation by way more than the cost. The average placed Fellow in 2024 from their self reported placement forms, increased their first year comp by over $100K and that's how you can justify the cost.
Now can you do it on your own and get the same increase without paying us? Of course and it's different for each person.
For example, someone might not want to negotiate their offer and we make it completely painless to increase the offer by $20K, paying for Formation itself regardless of the other increase.
Some people do like 30 mock interviews (which are run completely like REAL interviews with real engineers), which would cost them way more with a competitor.
Some people make like $150K already and an hour of their time is valuable so they would rat…
Hey /u/[8um8lebee](https://www.reddit.com/user/8um8lebee/),
Yeah, I mean very bluntly, you're not alone and we (my company) works with a lot of people like you - experienced engineers who need help navigating, preparing for, and interviewing at top tier FAANG-ish companies that ask DS&A, SD, etc... In 2024, everyone who has started has 1 to 30 years of industry experience, typically around 5 to 8 right now.
There are a class of programs that focus on interview prep that aren't bootcamps but help you prepare specifically for interviews. They are good options if you are getting interviews on your own and not passing. Formation is my company, Interview Kickstart is our main competitor and both of us prepare you comprehensively for top tier companies, and Interviewing.io and Hello Interview focus JUST on mock interviews.
You will get iOS topics as well but 75% of your interviews will be…
People have sent me LinkedIns (e.g. "Codesmith just said my friend got a job and they were placed 7 months ago, see : <linkedin>") so I'm assuming you would be able to look up people on LinkedIn and see.
I haven't done it for a long time but I used to look through the LinkedIns, and analyze just the work history. If you haven't done that it opens your eyes to how some people are getting jobs. A number of them have YEARS of experience listed.
I can't comprehend how it got normalized behavior for like someone to on slack and tell their cohort like 'hi everyone I got my first job, I'm so nervous and excited but want to thank all my cohort makes, I couldn't have done it without you!' and then silently their LinkedIn says they had 3 years of SWE experience that was really them having a Euphoria fan site on Squarespace with zero code and that clearly was how their resume got through.... (thi…
Are the Codesmith announcements:
1. people's promotions and 2nd or 3rd jobs
2. people reporting jobs several months after they placed
3. people job hunting for around a year or more
The reason I ask is that people have pointed out that Codesmith recently started adding alumnis new jobs to those announcements and intermixing them with new placements.
I do agree with the "Codesmith Method" of applying for jobs though. I also talked to a number of grads about it. Based on their sentiment I think there is a reason people have removed themselves from the Alumni List because they were being inundated with Codesmith grads who have zero experience. One person told me they removed themselves because they felt so awkward, like people attending timeshare meetings and feeling they have to listen to this embellished pitch and just want to get the heck out.
I agree with most of this, two comments:
1. I completely agree when you zoom out, 12 week Coding Bootcamps make absolutely no sense to make you think you'll get a job. For every 10 bootcampers that get a job, I estimate that 8 out of 10 have problems keeping it. Could be an unstable company, could be you are in over your head, could be you fake it until you make it and leave before not making it. It keeps me employed because bootcampers tend to have a lot of problems later on... and we only focus on interview skills - one part of the problem.
It's questionable when bootcamps like Codesmith tell people they have the "capacities" to be a "mid level or senior engineer" with ZERO work experience just by going through a 12 week program.
If you fall for the marketing and believe it, you should watch some MLM videos, crypto scam videos, and cult documentaries about areas you aren't familiar…
Hi! I'm the co-founder of Formation. Sorry about your experience, I'm not sure what happened, but if you DM me I can look into it. Most of our team was off today for an extra holiday because the time has been operating at 110% and we wanted to give them an extra day off.
I absolutely recommend talking to alumni and current Fellows as well. Specifically ones with a similar background to yourself. We also change quite fast so I would try to take to someone who started in the past few months.
We have a surprising number of people who come back to Formation for future job hunts and pay us a second or third time, because each time is different and unique, so that's why talking to the people most similar to you is important.
The day to day at Formation is quite unique, and unlike anything else so we really want you to learn how it works and be on the same page, otherwise it's a waste of tim…
Yeah exactly, that's why people tell me this stuff, they need the support and aren't happy about it.
It can make people feel like they have to pay for this AI course to continue to get people's attention.
I stand by my opinion that if they have the resources to build this AI course, those resources should first make sure their SWE immersive is in good shape first. The instructors working on AI should be doing these career services.
Again, I see the argument for abandoning alumni and going all on in AI stuff - which is the trend - they just can't in the same breath say that SWE students are getting a world class best experience.
\+1. I should have maybe talked about this more, but I think AI will create a ton of new jobs that don't exist at the intersection of tech and other fields.
I actually think Codesmith is philosophically most aligned with me on this of the 4 but they are going about it in a really weird way for marketing it haha, which is an artifact of this pivot.
They can't say overnight "all you 3500 SWEs that paid us $70M over the past 10 years.... we're no longer making SWEs and we're instead making prompt engineering lawyers"
They can do the following over the course of 2 years though:
1. redefine SWE as the "modern engineer", someone who is less coding focused on has broad capacities to solve any problems
2. re-target the definition of the "problems" to "legal prompt engineering"
3. most of these "SWEs" start getting these "X prompt engineering" roles.
4. they remove the word SWE and call th…
I completely coincidentally just posted here about this trend across the industry: [https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1ggvdbo/in\_a\_last\_hope\_to\_survive\_bootcamps\_are\_going\_all/](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1ggvdbo/in_a_last_hope_to_survive_bootcamps_are_going_all/)
OMG they are also using Codesmith's slogan. 🍿 for the IP dispute and who gets the trademark.
In a last hope to survive, bootcamps are going all in on "Gen AI" programs aimed at their own alumni - 3.5 major bootcamps pivoting to Gen AI courses (Codesmith, BloomTech, App Academy, Deep Atlas (original Hack Reactor team)). AA and BT have PAUSED all SWE programs as of today (Opinions Inside)
DISCLAIMER: These are my personal opinions based on my observations as a self-proclaimed industry expert in the top-tier SWE industry and in the bootcamp industry. My company offers interview prep mentorship for generalist SWEs with experience. We are not offering Gen AI programs at this time and aren't working on it at this time, and I do not consider that a conflict of interest.
I noticed today that App Academy's SWE courses are all "waitlisted" now and no longer enrolling. For me that was the impetus for this post, which has been a month or two in the making.
First, summarizing the state: b…
Haha I wrote almost a year ago now and things are the same on the Formation side - we still don't take people without SWE work experience, and people with under 2 years have a very hard time getting interviews. On the Codesmith side, their grads are really struggling and those strategies aren't working anymore. Placements have tanked at Codesmith and people are taking significantly lower paying jobs (average salaries down about 15% from peak).
Honestly out of those ones Codesmith is still probably the best if you are entrepreneurial. Recent students and grads have reported that the bar has dropped from the past for technical skills, but it's high on communication and people tend to be driven achievers who go there. For all of the mess I mentioned, former employees describe it as even a mess internally during the peak times that was never run like a "real company" (reference from employee), and ultimately I think they try to produce a consistent experience for you the student.
It's a very uniquely weird one of all the others (which are more similar to each other)... it has a "cult-like following" (not in the religious sense, but colloquially). People who go in skeptical, tend to see it for what it looks like under the hood and feel like it's overpriced, the instructors almost all have no SWE experience, lots of superficial stu…
Sorry, I normally disclose more, Formation isn't remotely an option so I hadn't mentioned it but we do work with a number of bootcamps later on in their careers and a big reason I have a broad real time pulse on them and pay attention to the bootcamp industry.
That context is indeed helpful. I would look at structure linear courses that are less intense. Bootcamps are kind of a pressure cooker where you retain little of the actual stuff and instead are forced to learn how to learn under that much pressure (which is how your first job feels on day 1). The people who succeeded at getting jobs quickly already self studied and were ready to go hard.
If you are sure you can't do self paced, then I would do part time that isn't too intense.
Or you can do some classes first to get a headstart and THEN to a bootcamp.
But given your goal of starting a company/working at a brand new startup, I…
Yeah Rithm was fully in person before COVID and was a pretty cool office.
I don't know any that are left honestly. Office space is still to expensive, despite being very empty and no one wanting to work downtown.
You could maybe just get a co-working space membership for $500 a month and go there to do remote lessons, you'll probably make friends with engineers and learn some stuff they are doing and working on haha. Maybe work your way into an internship.
All of the bootcamps you mention are having struggles :(
**THESE ARE MY PERSONAL WELL-INFORMED OPINIONS HERE**, do your own research too:
App Academy recently downsized yet again a few weeks ago and is allegedly cutting back part time programs. It's relying more and more on "AI helpers" and it's all untested and hard to know if it will work. After some extremely loud and angry employee departures, I think it's risky to go because…
Yeah I see this kind of thing often. I started doing an analysis of bootcamps grads trajectories and if they still had their first job a year out. I didn't complete it, but it was a shockingly high number of people who changed jobs or didn't have a job within a year or so after their first one.
The job is just the beginning. Bootcamps sell you the job as the end because for them that's when they advertise you everywhere and call it a day.
There's even a bootcamp Codesmith that after promising support for life after, just launched a cash grab AI followup course for $900 for alumni. A completely untested gamble and having the audacity to charge alumni for it. In all fairness, they don't charge for the classroom part of the course as they offer that in their bootcamp now and retroactively give that to alumni for free, so you are paying $900 for 4 Saturday workshops and a monthly "leadersh…
Yeah I would at least apply and talk to someone to see more.
Signals of strong fit:
1. you are getting interviews already and failing them or feeling lost (would expect subscription or shorter time at Formation)
2. you know you need to practice leetcode, system design, etc... but you have no idea where to start and you are busy and want to be efficient about it (would expect 3-8 months)
Hi, I can answer with my Formation hat on. It's a good question because there isn't anything else that operates like it, even competitors like Interview Kickstart are also super different.
In one sentence, we're an interview or and mentorship platform. Our focus is job hunting and preparing you for your upcoming interviews.
So philosophically we are based on the idea of mastery and helping you efficiently get form where you are to where you want to go. This means we try to spend your dollars efficiently by giving you the type of session we think you need at the right time.
If you want to hire an Open AI engineer who makes $1M to be your tutor, it would cost you hundreds of a ton and they wouldn't even be able to give you the time you need.
Instead, we give you mocks with those totes of people when you need it - usually when preparing for specific upcoming interviews, and when you don…
Some alumni have talked to me about the materials yeah. They said they only received the 5 lectures but that the projects weren't done yet. I think the people starting Codesmith now will get the real material for the first time in abouf 2 months. Which is why it's insane to me they are charging $3200 (discounted for the first cohort in Jan) instead of making it free. They both have to iron out the bugs and also have no idea how useful this course will be.
The lectures sound laughable as you said. Like RAG and fine tuning spent defining all of these techniques that were invented in the past year but not really being that useful.
There are some excellent free under the hood YouTube series on AI. There is an amazing one I watched part of that is like dozens of lectures for 2-3 hours each that really explains from basics how everything works, and still often says things alike "this is a si…
Codesmith also launched their standalone AI course. 4 weeks part time for almost $5000: https://www.become-irreplaceable.dev/ai-ml-program
I commented on this and will continue to comment it.
The best way to learn AI if you are a generalist SWE is to get a job at a top tier company and learn through their internal materials, confidential research, and thousands of ML engineers.
These are cash grabs capitalizing on fear of missing out, unless you want to be a prompt engineer and not a SWE job. But those jobs haven't solidified at all to justify experimenting on you to try to get you there.
I would recommend no, and I've been consistently recommending against AI/ML bootcamps unless you want to transition to a non-SWE AI role. I posted a poll result here a few weeks ago that shows at the top tier tech companies about 90% of engineers weren't evaluating for AI skills in interviews and had no plans to.
MY STRONG ADVICE TO ANYONE WITH EXPERIENCE WHO WANTS TO DO AI: get a normal SWE job at a big tech company that has a lot of AI product or infra and learn internally. They all have thousands of amazing engineers working on AI, breaking confidential research not released to the public or discussed outside, and many have internal courses on AI... it's like better than doing a course in every way.
In the face of tanking enrollment, a number of bootcamps have added AI/ML standalone options for existing engineers: BloomTech and Codesmith being two of them.
They are popping up as a…
I have the perspective of:
1. being a silicon valley outsider who broke in
2. working at Meta from 200 engineers to 10000 and learned a ton about how the sausage is made
3. I started a mentorship program to help engineers prepare for interviews and many people went to bootcamps in the past so I know about them and their pros and cons for your career down the road.
The story of why I'm here.
It all started when a bunch of people applied to my program claiming to have about 6 months to a year of work experience. When I interviewed them their stories all fell apart quickly and I realized these are all Codesmith graduates and the work experience was actually 3 week long group projects and when I confronted someone they said that they were coached into how to talk about it like it was months of work experience.
I did a deep dive and found a Reddit post from 2019 from a tech hiring manager…
I know of two instructors who worked as SWEs and then went back as instructors at Codesmith. I can't speak to their personal situations, but they seem like at least not bad engineers. So I wouldn't say that's universally or unanimously true.
If a decent paying job drops in your lap and you otherwise wouldn't have income, I can see it being an okay option while you job hunt.
I was being sarcastic, but people are paying bootcamps because they think App Academy or Codesmith will get them a $120K job in 12 weeks for $20 to $30K.
So if that's what they are expecting, then what are bootcamps missing - well they aren't getting people jobs quickly anymore... haha.
If people cared about HOW the bootcamp works they wouldn't have signed up in the first place to pay $20K to do a udemy-type course taught in large part by recent graduates.