For anyone reading this who is skeptical because of the somewhat sketchier pro Codesmith posts recently, this person is a very long time reliable commenter who has been here for a long time.
So about 70% placement in A YEAR is quite low compared to the past CIRR results almost concerninly low because they are advertising an 80% placement rate in 6 months post graduation and telling people that in info sessions. Just because CIRR hasn't published an H2 2022 report, they have a report prepared already and know the numbers and that's deceptive in my personal opinion to life in customers knowing the latest placements rates are.mjch lower. The CIRR executive director already said that Codesmith is free to self publish those if they want to.
Everyone reading this - CIRR is expected to change the 6 month window to 12 months and I expect Codesmith to start quoting 12 months placement rates of 80% and say 'placements are still the same rate but just taking a lot longer'. Will cross this bridge when we get there, it's a legit statement to make but just in those extra SIX MONTHS more can happen that the school has nothing to do with... like how Lambda School talks about students who years later are making a ton of money (without acknowledging those people like have gone to other mentorship, programs or services later on for help to get there)
Do you have a sense of how many were within 6 months of graduation, for the "CIRR comparable"? You said placements were trickling in so I'm ballparking a 50% placement rate at the 6 month mark?
u/WillHungFan wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
My cohort is at about 40% right now and we finished in April.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Finishing in April means your CIRR 6 month mark was October, so that's about a 40% placement rate. I tend to round up because people that you dont' know ghost, and if their LinkedIn says they have a job, they count as a placement anyways. So let's say 50%, which is consistent with Triathletes' comment. This is also consistent with the data I have as well.
I still think they should be more transparent about this since since they are so all in on CIRR and transparency in results.
u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
So you just skipped over the part where he said 26/36 of the people got jobs?
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited
Which is crazily lower than the placement rate in their website and what they tell people in info sessions....
Best of bad options might be the best but it doesn't mean people have to choose any option at all.
u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Leave it to Michael to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. The point isn't that it's 60% or 80%, the point is it's not 0-25%. Codesmith self-reports 80%, someone who attended says it's 50-60% over six months and 70% for a year, big deal. You're beginning to fit that definitio
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
Like I said before, my commentary reflects what people tell me. With recent churn of staff and longer time staff who left a while ago reappearing there is more going on here.
Look at their Glassdoor reviews (I hadn't but a prospective student shared them and asked if I knew of they were real). Notice how all the 1 star ones have a shit-ton of upvotes and the great ones have none. And this is with Codesmith monitoring page and reporting reviews for fraud review.
u/LongjumpingFan9447 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Yes but in CIRR they have 5% of people who are not doing a job search and 5% that did not graduate so you can already take off 10% of people.
I think this is odd and they should include **every** person but it does mean that actually 26 of 36 is more like 80% of those remaining
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
80% in ONE YEAR vs 80% in SIX MONTHS is very different.
Imagine people went to an interview prep program after and got a job from that, all within the 12 months... Codemsith still gets credit. The longer the time period the more people do on their own afterwards that contributes to their job than. And the portion any bootcamp would claim for the success of failure at that point is lower and lower. That's my point here, not that it's not a good point that people are getting jobs but just taking longer.
u/LongjumpingFan9447 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Congratulations! I am in the bootcamp and was in a talk where they showed the last 100 offers and the average for the last 30? was $130000 so things seem to be looking up at least. I will see.
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
The market is indeed picking since end of September through now. It will be critical to see through Q1 2024 how things go, as new budgets and headcount kick in. All of my friends are doing all of their headcount planning right now and we'll see. No one can time the market, but you can make the thoughtful decisions you can with all the data you can.
Unfortunately Codesmith is sitting on their H2 2022 report and won't publish it and people can't make thoughtful decisions.
u/Old_Cheek1076 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I’m a year and a half out, and still no dice. Don’t know the stats of my cohort, but there’s at least a few of us still looking. Maybe more than a few.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Feel free to send your resume for review, I'm also curious what you've been doing since then since that's a long time. The market is indeed tough for people without experience and there's no shortcut (other than if you lie or exaggerate on your resume) so it does take time, but I can give some tips for things to do while job hunting to be ready.
u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
For all I know that could be you and your team upvoting the bad reviews (shit-ton equaling 6 people). But yes I get the shtick Michael. Everything's bad and Codesmith is evil.
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
Only people who drink the kool-aid feel that way from what I see, the vast majority of people outside of the Codesmith bubble think I'm balanced and reasonable and I tell many of them to go to Codesmith if it's the right thing for them. I help a number of Codesmith grads (at Formation and not at Formation) think of ideas and things to do who are stuck. So I imagine that my view is skewed more for people on the struggling side who don't drink the kool-aid.
But like I said, many of the bootcamp leaders (current and former) talk with me anyone from once in a blue moon to regularly, except for Codesmith - they instead just call me a troll to their staff instead of acknowledging the truth in the things I say and making changes. With so much churn in staff, some of those people who are not so bought in are going to start talking to me (when they see me challenged by people who drink the kool-aid) and maybe I have a super skewed one-sided view of all the internal problems etc...
I get a number of messages that are 'I just left Codesmith and I've been dying to reach out because the way they talk about you is delusional and I don't think the leaders have any idea what's going on' - if you got a number of those messages (all similar with that framing), wouldn't that just raise more questions and flags, or would you call that totally normal.
I've asked people about why and they think it's because they aren't open minded to people challenging them - like if they genuinely think OSPs are "worth 4 months of work experience credit" for a 3 week project, we are never going to agree on that and I don't think we'll agree to disagree.
u/godzillahash74 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Is it me or are there a lot of glowing “reviews” of codesmith lately?
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
Yes, from talking to a number of people casually, this is my current understanding (this is not fact-based but connecting the dots from various first hand sources):
\- enrollment is down, one timezone was removed, there were layoffs a month or so ago
\- there is pressure on admissions to get people admitted faster (less time between interviews and more discretion, BUT KEEPING THE BAR HIGH! - which is important)
\- the teacher hierarchy is students -> fellows -> mentor -> instructor -> lead instructor -> head instructor and program director. when someone leaves they get replaced by someone one step lower in the hierarchy
\- so when pressure comes from the program director, head instructor, and outcomes advisor to increase enrollment and that message gets spread down the hierarchy and eventually hits the current students.
so my working theory is that say the program director pulls in some mentors or fellows and says "hey we have to get enrollment up, try to encourage people to share their positive experiences out there" and then the mentors/fellows talk to THEIR most positive people and say "you are doing just so incredible here, I wish we could get more people like you here, try to spread the word if you can!" and then those people post on Reddit.
u/SlowestTriathlete wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
So, I personally don't like guesswork and assumptions. I haven't been contacted by anyone to post anything. I've been asked to be a speaker in whatever presentation, but have declined because I cannot sit there and tell every random person that they can totally do this.
As I me
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I also don't think you would fall into this bucket based on your post and your clear and transparency for 2+ years here.
I know a number of people that post on their own free will, a number of people who ask me to post things on their behalf, a number of people who just tell me about their multiple accounts and how they use them, it's a really wide spectrum.
Like I do have a trusted source who claims to have first hand evidence of an employee directly asking a group of trusted alumni to comment on specific posts and I want to figure out how THAT is happening and sprinkles down to others.
I don't know if you agree or not, but each cohort is a little different. Part time is a lot more chill (and hence why their ghosting rate is much higher on CIRR), new york onsite is super intense, east coast I get the most concerns about toxic positivity, etc... I don't know all the of the instructors but the ones most complained about to me are the ones most talked about by their leaders publicly, and the ones people really love, have left.
I actually have a very busy day job and just sponge things up and don't really have much time to proactively dig into all this, nor do I have any kind of reasons or interest in doing so. If I was retired maybe that would be different because there's a lot of super interesting things people sent that me as a software engineer am curious about.
The only thing I DO CARE ABOUT PROFESSIONALLY is the "mid level and senior characterization" and the "OSP characterization" because those things impact me, my friends and peers, and the people I work with on my day job, and I do feel I have to challenge openly on that.
u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
> Codesmith has a 5% acceptance rate.
I've spoken to Codesmith administrators and they don't know where this 5% number originated from. Anecdotally they've told me it's more so around 20%, but you have to factor in there's no barrier for an interview so you're getting all sorts
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy
How did they reply to your questions directly so quickly? Can you ask them why they won't self publish their H2 2022 CIRR report ready to go and let me know, because I can't get an answer.
u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
For all I know that could be you and your team upvoting the bad reviews (shit-ton equaling 6 people). But yes I get the shtick Michael. Everything's bad and Codesmith is evil.
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited
I sent you a LinkedIn connection and happy to chat there if you want to try to explain more where I'm coming from here, I feel like we're on very different pages and I know where I stand but I don't know where you do.
u/fluffyr42 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Super important point here. University placement rates are all over the place, if you can find them at all.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I argue this often but all the Stanford CS grads I know have 10 offers and red carpet treatment during the CURRENT new grad hiring season RIGHT NOW.
So if you are calling yourself the "best bootcamp", as numerous Codesmith leaders and staff unabashfully do - both internally and externally, then you have to compare yourself to the best.
If Stanford were to compare itself to all the for-profit online schools, it would be apples to oranges.
And comparing Codesmith to programs with no or lower entrance bars is also apples to oranges.
u/quartz-crisis wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I doubt that. 130k is maybe a bit above the average (of OFFERS) for my cohort. But if they are giving the average of the last 30 offers received by any new Codesmith grad it would still make sense.
Keep in mind that like every 6 weeks basically 100+ people graduate from Codesmi
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
I also monitor Codesmith offers and one interesting thing going on here, is there are a number of people being placed who have been job hunting for almost a year now.
They still list their OSP as X - present, so the longer it takes them to get a job, the more fake work experience it looks like they have. This is the dirty secret in many of the struggling-graduate Codesmith resumes I see (many people send me resumes for reviews outside of my day job).
As /u/SlowestTriathlete said, they are trying to motivate graduates by showing recovering results.
The market is indeed doing better, but it's not doing better for people without any experience.
Congrats on doing well btw! It gets lost in my post but one thing Codesmith does very well is choose amazing peope to let in who really give it their all.
u/quartz-crisis wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
We were told by Phil that he would only give a reference that you were working on your OSP for your time in Codesmith.
Which, yes, I know we only really worked on it for like 4 weeks…
I have to say, as someone who now has even ~6 months of actual work experience, I have no ide
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
Thanks, I largely agree with your assessment too and it's why I try so hard to help the right people go there. People who go just because of the outcomes won't do well.without those other traits and attitude.
RE: OSP, it's a straight up lie that you worked for 3 months on the OSP and Phil saying that is actual fraud if he said that he does that. I understand that he thinks all of the time at Codesmith goes into that OSP but residents are also listing all of their other projects on their resume too, and their tech talks, and their "publications" (I e. medium post about the OSP) and that is all double or triple counted if you are getting 3 months credit for the OSP.
That said, they will also verify time spent after Codesmith. I found someone who removed a word from the README file 4 months later and they claimed 7 or 8 months in their LinkedIn.
I know several alumni who are floating 1 to 3 YOE to get interviews and jobs - and if works - and they just role the dice that no one will ask for a reference or that Codesmith will confirm the time ranges they request.
When a resident asks for a reference from Codesmith, they put down what they TOLD the company.... who the heck asks that on a normal reference request form... why is it relevant what I told the company, isn't the point of the reference check to independently match that what I told the company is true.
u/Dense-Vector wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Another Codesmith grad here, currently job hunting. It's rough, and it feels like you have to be comfortable with a certain level of dishonesty--which Codesmith definitely promotes--to even get your foot in the door. I don't blame Codesmith for encouraging that dishonesty, becaus
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
This is why I so strongly eco this loud and clear no matter who pushes back or no matter how much Codesmith leadership badmouths me to their staff to try to turn them against me.... you know what their response to my recent wave of calling this out: 'Codesmith is the best and the best always attracts haters'.
No... systematically supporting lying and looking the other way attracts haters.
u/quartz-crisis wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Yeah so I think what Phil said is that they will provide a reference for the dates you are in Codesmith that you were also at Open Source Labs for that time, not necessarily that you worked at your OSP for that time.
Probably how they get around it because you are technically p
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Yeah but do you sign any paperwork that you are part of OSLabs or that you are admitted to it?
I volunteered for a number of charities and you always have to sign paperwork.
Otherwise your IP contributions are ambiguous. If you aren't just committing open source code but are a part of OSLabs, then your contributions to the projects they own (regardless of open source or not, they own them) need clear IP ownership.
If they aren't educating you on how open source really works, then you arent being prepared to use open source properly on the job either. I learned all this almost immediately st Facebook and many friends learn about it too at their companies. If you are going to be a mid-level or senior engineer and you aren't learning this stuff, that is a major hole.
Codemsith can't have it bofh ways. If they want to use open source to accelerate people then do right... otherwise it's all marketing and you aren't learning anything about open source and just learning how to market yourself as an open source engineer.
This sounds pedantic but we have a fleet of silicon valley lawyers and all of this stuff comes up in due diligence... and Codemsith doesn't have investors who require them to have due diligence so that's probably why this hasn't come up.
u/Dense-Vector wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Actually, if you have the time, I'd appreciate hearing your advice for those who've graduated into the current market. I've checked out Formation's website, and it seems to just be an interview prep program. I'm not really looking to drop yet more money on something that's not an
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
Correct, Formation is not ideal for bootcamp grads who can't get jobs right now. We have people who joined the hot market with no experience and we stand by our unconditional support until they get a job but it's a rough market and we don't do miracles . We take a very very small number of people who do it with no experience while job hunting because they don't care about the cost and want structure instead of just job hunting alone but they enter with reasonable expectations.
So you can consider it but I would strongly recommend getting a job first and coming back in the future when you are ready to level up.
u/quartz-crisis wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I actually think that we did sign something when we first started that said we were part of both Codesmith and simultaneously OSLabs accelerator.
I’m not sure about the IP of the work within it. I know that I asked what license we should use when creating our OSP project and go
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
Yeah I agree Codesmith is still one of the best bootcamps, they just bill themselves as an elite grad school and are unabashedly talking about how good they are in all the talks I see and I see graduates carry forward that vibe... when on paper they are doing like a "good bootcamp" education and not anywhere close to something billing itself as an way better.
For gosh sakes, their contract is a Google Form equivalent that doesn't meet basic requirements of a contract, it's a one way form.
If you have paperwork showing what your IP relationship is with OS Labs then I would back off on that. I hadn't seen it in the contracts sent to me by people asking about things in them.
u/Acceptable_Skin7080 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
You are really a coach. Thanks for your advice.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Haha I wrote almost a year ago now and things are the same on the Formation side - we still don't take people without SWE work experience, and people with under 2 years have a very hard time getting interviews. On the Codesmith side, their grads are really struggling and those strategies aren't working anymore. Placements have tanked at Codesmith and people are taking significantly lower paying jobs (average salaries down about 15% from peak).