+1 it can go both ways for sure and I didn't comment on salaries at all.
That said, there are always people who ghost salaries every half, and it's generally a smaller number, but it REALLY tanked this half and I think something else is going on. Like combining all of this, 25% of people are ghosting in some way in H2 versus hardly anyone in H1 and the market only got worse in the rest of 2023 for H1 2023 grads.
It should be zero surprise that sentiment on this sub is bad and that enrollment tanked 70% in end of 2023 and it's certainly not me pointing this stuff out that's causing it. Smart engineers making $130K salaries can figure this out by talking to these alumni and hearing about this stuff from them.
Now I have inside info here that end of last year, Instructors were asked to text and reach out to alumni to try to get placement info out of them via whatever means they could to…
From the interview prep company point of view, like Pathrise, Formation, Interview Kickstart, these places aren't schools and aren't 'education' and I can't see why they would join CIRR (personal opinion)
It might end up bing a waste of time to come up with a standard you think will work for these companies by observing from the outside without getting to know how they work first.
I know for Formation, it would be like making a standard for Personal Trainers for how good they are at being a personal trainer based on analyzing all of their clients. Some people are overweight and want to just lose weight. Some people are in good shape and want to get ripped. Some people want to get skinny. Some people want to run a marathon. Some people want to be a sprinter. Some people are recovering form injuries.
Like weight lost, muscle gained all misleading metrics. Some people want to lose weight…
I think you're trolling me so I'm going to link to my recent answer about this too: [https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1bm94be/comment/kwdvx3n/](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1bm94be/comment/kwdvx3n/)
And my most recent post before the CIRR one today was about Launch School: [https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1blhhh0/launch\_schools\_2023\_capstone\_outcomes\_commentary/](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1blhhh0/launch_schools_2023_capstone_outcomes_commentary/)
If Codesmith did what Launch School did in that AMA and presentation, then there wouldn't be a discussion because it was just all super clear and transparent about what was going on in the market cohort to cohort and month to month.
Codesmith's Unofficial/Reverse Engineered H2 2022 CIRR Report - NOTABLE OPINIONS: concerning increase in number of ghosters on salaries (that still counted as job obtainers !!), 180 day placement rate of 63% (a little higher than expected)
CIRR finally published 2022 outcomes! They aren't as bad as expected at first glance, but I'm not a fan of the change to 360 day reporting period. Three schools reported, one of them had only 15 graduates in all of 2022, another published H2 2022 outcomes instead of full year 2022 outcomes.
So I reversed engineered some of the the H2 2022 outcomes for Codesmith.
DISCLAIMERS:
1. See Methodology for how to reproduce what I did yourself.
2. This may contain errors or misunderstandings, please check the numbers yourself and point out corrections and I will update anything incorrect.
3. These are illustrative examples based on the **reports and the me…
I'm on Reddit representing myself.
RE: Formation, I've explained here fairly recently why CIRR or CIRR-like reports don't make sense in advancing open and transparent understanding of what Formation does. Maybe some other standard would but until we get to a point where Pathrise, Interview Kickstart and us need a standard, we publish information on our blog about outcomes: [https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1bhvmzf/comment/kvi0wyz](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1bhvmzf/comment/kvi0wyz)
For the past year we don't accept anyone without a year of SWE experience, and literally a handful of people who appeal to come in with say 6 months of experience but are clear on their goals and aligned, so no one recently does them back to back.
We've had way more people come back to Formation twice and pay us twice (or three times) than we have people who have done Formation immediately after graduating Codesmith.
The fact that people come back to Formation multiple times and pay us each time is a very clear indication we are not remotely anything similar to Codesmith. We don't teach anything.
The personal trainer analogy is much stronger. Hire a personal trainer, get into shape, good for a few years, have new training goal, get into better shape again, good for a few more years. Have a kid, need to make routine changes, get into shape again.
\`I think it is very difficult to obje…
What you said here to me is that the people attending Codesmith are awesome. The people graduating are self-organizing to run standups and encouraging each other in the job hunt.
That's all fantastic stuff but is it what you are paying $21K for? Imagine a random person added all those same people to a Discord and they all had self studied and were supporting each other just the same.
Similar arguments are made about going to Harvard Business School - you go to meet the people, not to learn anything special, so it quite frankly might be worth the cost.
I talk to a lot of alumni, and the lowest ballpark I've heard is 30% placed in a year, and the highest is what you just said at 75%.
Given that they had about 1000 students START in 2022, and 550ish offers in 2023, that sounds like a 50ish% placement rate within a year - maybe higher on CIRR because they reduce the number of people in…
What information have I refused to release? I've explained extremely transparently what information we have and don't have, and why we do what we do. You can see an entire list of every single placement's company on our blog.
If you think that CIRR would work for Formation, you don't understand what Formation is and how it works, and coordinated downvoting my comments doesn't make you all understand what Formation is better than I do.
If you want me to give you a CIRR report you have absolutely no idea how Formation works and you should not be signing up whatsoever until you understand what it is and what you are getting.
We very transparently explain the average compensation gain of a placement which tanked last year from $100K to $80K and will hopefully be much higher in 2024. We were also transparent about how top tier placements tanked from 75% of outcomes to 50% (which is back u…
I wouldn't say it's the "only objective metric" no. It's a reliable and good signal to use, combined with other data and information.
The outcomes themselves are more indicative of the job market than the programs themselves, so judging a program by it's outcomes alone was never a good idea, even in the good times.
The fact that a CIRR report exists checks off one box of legitimacy, but it's far more concerning that Codesmith and possibly others had H2 2022 outcomes audited and ready for 6 months and won't share them, while they tout H1 2022 numbers in marketing. Even if this was not CIRR data, if that fact was true I would be demanding transparent placement rates before signing an agreement if it was me, but others might have a different bar.
Just to be clear, this post was a personal opinion and not one of Formation and not about Formation.
RE: Formation, I take that as feedback for sure, I don't think the 750K number is really effective too, but it's accurate and it's what our competitors do, so we took the easy there as we focused on other parts of our website.... Which I think is the fundamental reason we're on such different pages here, Formation isn't a bootcamp and CIRR-type data makes no sense. We've tried to cut numbers with artificial time windows for banks and loan providers and all those people love them and support us strongly, but we don't share them publicly because they used for math for finance people and don't help an individual understand their journey and likely would only mislead them because of the unique commitment and path that each person takes.... the timeframe is largely up to the person.
Not all…
CIRR appears to be done and irrelevant now - Codesmith needs to get off the Titanic before it sinks (Personal Opinion)
As many are aware, [CIRR](https://cirr.org/) started out a business-league from Skills Fund to try to standardize bootcamp outcomes in the early days of bootcamps.
While CIRR's stated goals were to create transparency in the Bootcamps industry, it was ultimately not a charity - and was a business league, like the Chamber of Commerce, whose practical value was promoting and marketing for it's member bootcamps (who pay fees to be members) that did particularly well. So as bootcamps started doing terribly - particularly in 2022 -> 2023, a lot of those backers left.
**You can see this in how important "transparency" was when bootcamps were doing well, and how quickly and efficiently they posted outcomes, and how when outcomes are terrible everything comes to a halt - this…
Codesmith (due to declining enrollment) shutting down NYC in-person, merging remaining full time remote cohorts into one. But also alludes to new Future Code program, co-working spaces and announces new changes! See my line by line commentary and personal opinions.
SOURCE: [https://www.codesmith.io/blog/community-update-doubling-down-on-remote-learning-timeless-pedagogy-frontier-tech](https://www.codesmith.io/blog/community-update-doubling-down-on-remote-learning-timeless-pedagogy-frontier-tech)
DISCLAIMER: The following is my top to bottom analysis and personal opinions. I always disclose this and hopefully it's not boring. These are my personal opinions. I've not new to the sub and I have been giving my opinions on bootcamps for almost two years now, daily, from the FAANG angle, and also having worked with hundreds of bootcamps grads. I'm the co-founder of an interview prep mentorshi…
Yeah they are preparing to release 2022 outcomes any day now so that means they just use the data you self submitted in the form.
The auditors don't check everything and they are just checking Codesmith's math and processes that they are following CIRR, they are not actually auditing that your salary is what you say it is.
It's one of the misunderstandings of CIRR. CIRR allows self-reported salary data without specifying how it should be verified so the auditors make sure Codemsith is following CIRR and ultimately involves a heck of a lot of self reported data.
My understanding is that your offer details form IS what they use for CIRR. Their auditor contacts a random sampling of people to confirm the numbers they have for you are what you told Codesmith originally and that's the extent of the audit
With the new CIRR rules, which have t been published yet (which isn't great because the outcomes might come at the same time as the new spec, not leaving time for anyone to give feedback on the spec, other than the 3 schools remaining in CIRR) so I can only speculate, but if you graduated in 2023, you might not get contacted until 2025 with the 12 months cycle. So try to remember exactly what you told Codemsith haha if it comes to an audit.
Codesmith posted an "Early Look" into 2023 outcomes w/ 2022 comparisons. My personal opinions and anlysis. Notable to me is both that median salary was $130K in 2022 and that it was $115K in 2023. Placement rates are missing, but I would guess much lower, for a double whammy 🥺
SOURCE: [https://www.codesmith.io/blog/early-look-2023-outcomes-and-analysis](https://www.codesmith.io/blog/early-look-2023-outcomes-and-analysis)
DISCLAIMER: These are my personal opinions about the data. I'm human and I make mistakes, but I'm giving my quick personal thoughts and opinions the most open and transparently I can, comments and corrections with sources are appreciated. I have a long history of being around this sub and giving my opinions from the FAANG angle, and the bootcamp angle (having worked with hundreds of bootcamp grads from all kinds of bootcamps over the years). I'm the co-founder of an…
I'm acting as a moderator because there is an ongoing conversation that OP is involved with making very large claims about Codesmith with I've seen first hand evidence of some of those claims. Some public messages called out certain individual Codesmith employees resulting in the account being suspended and the person appears to be trying to steer the conversation in a constructive direction with this new post.
It sounds like you made the right choice going to Codesmith and it's a fit for you. Some people don't like the "cringe moments" and some alumni, as they get real industry experience, feel like people there don't "know their shit", but instead know how to portray that they "know their shit". You won't be able to judget that until you are in the industry for a few years, but regardless, it doesn't mean the experience can't be effective at helping the right people find jobs.
Where…
Hey, thanks for sharing your experience with everyone, two follow up questions in bold below. There's a lot of common stuff I hear about career support at Codesmith (in terms of response times and the idea that they don't really care if you give up after a year because it won't impact CIRR numbers anymore). Additionally, people often report that alumni mentors tend to regurgitate the lectures, repeating the same solutions and people who get it, do well and people who don't just get told they are "hard learning" and to figure it out.
**I have a follow up question, which is how many people in your cohort do you think were in a similar boat, i.e. what was your approximate placement rate within 6 months?**
Codesmith aggressively markets that their alumni are mid-level and senior engineers and bluntly, I saw [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/18cpq98/analysis_of_52_most…
I don't know but Codesmith is one of them, also don't know who the new president is.
If the new president is from Codesmith then it basically makes CIRR a marketing tool to validate their outcomes, just like GRAD for Hack Reactor and Rithm 's own standard. Which is totally fine just have to realize that.
There are no bodies and I don't expect one to happen because CIRR had more force than anyone and failed to get schools on board.
I can clarify that my motivation for the original post was to point out that CIRR appears to be falling apart and that Codemsith is the only entity left with motivation to keep it going, so that a former Codemsith employee being connected to CIRR to work there could possibly indicate close and control between CIRR and Codesmith.
That's all, I don't think I implied anything about anything nefarious going on or changing standards or a Codemsith person backdooring anything and if I did, I'm happy to edit that to make it clearer.
When I reread the title, it's not the best, it's limited to 300 characters and I could have done better. I'm literally skiing all over Hokkaido and waking up at 5am every morning to work and dropped the ball a bit with the title in terms of communicating what I intended. The content itself is only briefly about Codemsith and is mostly about concerns about CIRR.
Yeah I mean I'm not trying to call any individuals out, except maybe Eric K because he seems to be at the center of all the stuff people tell me about that is personal about me by name. But the CIRR people: nothing personal in calling this stuff out, literally just open and transparent and want people to see interesting realities
Words are easy, actions are hard.
It's even more weird if a CIRR.org owned Google Drive is being edited by a former Codesmith employee, no?
Like it's not flip the table conspiracy theory, it's just this is not the bar I expected from CIRR or from Codesmith and they all need to get their stuff together! Codesmith has so many problems with their website, privacy, cookies, sharing of data, I don't know where to even begin, and this CIRR thing isn't helping convince me otherwise lol
Anyone have any updates from CIRR and their new standards for 2022 full year outcomes? All the "official standards documents" on their website are "owned" by Codesmith's former product manager (!?!), not someone at CIRR, and haven't been updated in a long time.
Hi all, I'm hitting the slopes skiing in Japan and what else would I be doing but checking up on CIRR's website because we're all awaiting new updates any day now! However, I'm more concerned than ever that it's kind of falling apart :(
1. All previous data seemed to have disappeared, so there are no past reports to look at, zero data on the site. After the site changed ownership and hosting behind the scenes, I'm concerned they lost access to the previous data and it's gone :(. I would love any evidence anyone has if this is correct or not, just a theory because I can't imagine why they would delete all the old data.
2. I notic…
It shows 40% were above 120K, which seems about right. That's a very very large drop. The median was $115K according to this and this data is legit and up to date and it was $127,500 on their last CIRR report.
Regardless of the context around the numbers and cautions one should have, these are very larger drops in salaries.
Codesmith's CEO has attributed it to people taking lower offers sooner instead of waiting for a better one and that the world is changing - more types of companies are hiring engineers.
I attribute it to people taking less strong jobs are less tech-focused companies and that the world isn't changing.
But the jobs are clearly still very good compared to most bootcamps.
I think the 12 month placement might be higher than 60% but we'll see. We know placements have been a lot slower, but it's hard to tell whose getting the jobs.
If I had more time or cared about this more I repeat my 52 person audit and cross reference their cohorts from some other data. Part of the reason the average time on OSPs was 12 months was becasue people tended to be job hunting longer and just had like June 2022 - present, listed for their OSP. But when you do all the accounting I don't have a strong sense of where this lands but I highly suspect 6 month placements rates of 50 to 60% are reasonable.
My nightmare that everyone should prepare for is if CIRR comes out and Codesmith has a 12 month placement of 78% or something, and touts that as not much different than the H1 2022 SIX MONTH rate of 83% (or whatever it is close to that) then I think that would be bad.
No one has a right to any data, but they have a right to say CIRR's data is outdated, sorry if that wasn't clear.
I don't think I'm pedantic about why we don't report CIRR results or other reporting standards, I'll try to explain again very bluntly and directly.
Formation is a mentorship and benchmarking platform and not a program or school so we don't publish CIRR-like outcomes data. We really want to publish more data but when we sit down and look at it, it's just almost impossible.
We had two $500K+ seniors Meta offers in the past three weeks - for people with a many years of experience and we recently had someone with a few months of experience get a role paying much less at a startup that they are thrilled with.
It's super meaningless to publish CIRR-like data that doesn't take background into consideration.
Sounds easy, publish data by experience level right? Now because we wo…
I don't think Tech Elevator is a particpate anymore. They merged operations with Galvanize (which has their own reporting system) and have let go of a number of long time staff. It's still running great and a solid option, especially if you are in their in-person cities, but I doubt they will participate in CIRR anymore.
CodeUp shutdown so they are probably no longer a participant either.
So from the CIRR website that leaves:
Turing - an accredited school
Code Platoon - a school focusing on veterans
Hacktiv8 - a bootcamp in Indonesia
Codesmith - a full stack immersive bootcamp in the USA
Launch Academy - a full stack immersive focusing on Boston
These are so different it doesn't seem useful really
I highly encourage schools to make their own standards, have them vetted and audited and then publish their own data on their own time. Using CIRR for branding doesn't seem to have the…
The latest CIRR reports were for graduates from Jan 2022 to June 2022.
Jan is over 2 years ago, and June is 1 year 8 months, which rounds to 2 years too.
So if someone graduates now 2024, that would be like receiving data about them in 2026.
Codesmith for example said they were ready to publish their old format H2 2022 CIRR report and (before the change in specification) said to my recollection that it was coming out 'any day' - which it never did after CIRR changed the specification. So the data is there and wasn't' released and I think people have a right to claim that published CIRR data is out of date for that reason alone.
CIRR essentially collapsed and one of the board members took over and is trying to reboot CIRR.
I have no idea why all the historical data is gone but it's expected for CIRR results from 2022 to come out in February (i.e. this month).
The new results will look at a 12 month placement window in addition to 3 and 6 months, which is the cause for the delay.
The new director of CIRR is super reasonable but I disagree with almost all of this and I get the feeling like CIRR collapsed and lose it's members and the director has great intentions of rebooting it, but it's going to take a lot of time.
That said, the new Director just started a full time job and it's questionable how much time and effort their going to spend on CIRR.
Anyways, **there is absolutely no reason why schools didn't publish 6 month 2022 CIRR data and then re-publish the 12 month data under the new standard.**
At the…
Yeah totally agree that it's a huge amount of time! Like people might go back to their old jobs as a mechanical engineer or what have you and count as "offers". They can't call those jobs "non engineering roles" for CIRR but call them "engineering roles" on their resumes - have to go one way or the other.
I also found that a significant number of alumni who got offers frame experience as jobs on LinkedIn and I always wondered how the auditors reconciled those. Did they flag things as jobs that were just projects? etc....
Yeah I mean it's on the lower side of others I've heard, but when you factor in non-job hunting individuals, out of country (they said they had people from 13 countries), and then exclude people who didn't graduate or ghosted, and then people who went MIA but got jobs on LinkedIn, it might end up being closer to 50 to 60% for CIRR.
Either way, this is what people ask me all the time and we need to see the data.
I really want to see 6 month data for H1 2023 and we won't be seeing any 2023 for a long time with the new CIRR rules, but they have been sitting on the informal 6 month data for H1 2023 for almost a month now.
I think their director is a reasonable person trying to make CIRR better, but there are hardly any schools left and Codesmith is the elephant in the room.
I mean I expect they will have to show 3 month, 6 month AND 1 year placement rates, and hopefully it will be clear people are taking a lot longer to find jobs.
I'm not anti CIRR or anti bootcmap, I'm just a perosn who believes in the win-win-win - student wins by being in the right place, bootcamp wins by making money, company wins by hiring the right person for the right job.
I've been extremely middle road in trying to examine Codesmith outcomes for a while now (I know I have personal opinions about the framing of OSPs and mid level and senior projects but on the outcomes I try to follow the facts). I am often attacked here on different sides because this is a controversial topic, but please try to have a fact based discussion, no one off anecdotes.
I think it's important to get more data on placement rates because Codesmith is presenting marketing that everything is going great, and we only have anecdotal and napkin math estimates for placement rates.
This is what Codemsith has said so far about 2023 publicly:
1. They had 600 offers (CEO in public talk)
2. There were 68 offers between October 15th 2023 to November 30th
3. There.is a blog post showing average salaries dipped to $110K medium but have been going back up.
4. Last week, the most recent 10 offe…
The changing narrative around becoming an engineer in 2024, an argument for taking a longer and slower journey to becoming a SWE instead of a 12-16 week bootcamp.
Before beginning I want to disclose that these are my personal opinions (I know I post here like all the time and you probably know this, but I have to disclose!) but that I'm the co-founder of mentorship platform that while isn't a bootcamp, does work with a lot of bootcamp grads in their 2nd, 3rd, 4th job transitions. In some ways that might bias me want more people to go to bootcamps and this post talks about taking your time instead, but this post is my personal views on the topic.
This is a mini essay I threw together to outline some new thoughts I had. Curious to hear your thoughts. I'm not going anywhere and this is not an anti-bootcamp post. I might post something else making the case for traditional bootcamps too. Th…
Interesting, yeah I would like to see more data on placement times.
Codesmith has provided a whole blog post on salaries in 2023, and published a bunch of aggregated data in info sessions, like schools people went to and industries people got jobs in.
So it should be trivial to publish the length of time it took people in those placements, since they do that for CIRR already.
Maybe prospective students should push them on that. Slower placement times don't mean anything bad about Codesmith, but it's critical to know about if you are planning your life and savings.
I agree they are just one tool and each person will use them differently. But they are also an expensive tool that tie their legitimacy to their job outcomes.
I am super strong proponent that a bootcamp should be judged by the quality of the education and experience that it provides and in the provable skill gains it produces, rather than job outcomes.
If someone wants to pay $20K to level up as a stepping stone, and then spend up to 12 months finding a job, and are satisfied, that's great. A very large number of people I talk to expect a job out of a bootcamp, and I think in 2023 people started realizing that they shouldn't be expecting that anymore - but the bootcamps that are hanging on continue to publish job outcomes reports to validate themselves.
NuCamp gets some flak for publishing satisfaction reports instead of job reports but I actually agree with this in spirit. I'm not j…
Yeah Codesmith is a place where people intentionally delay their job hunt start date to teach and many of those people find that time both challenging and useful.
\- They are paid about $50K a year, which is much lower than the $120K job expected at Codesmith, but people see it as continued learning and don't mind the "lower" pay.
\- The time windows for CIRR get bumped until the end of the TA-ship
\- A handful of these people get hired as full time mentors, paid $80K to $100K and have a pathway to becoming an instructor paid at $120Kish if an opportunity arrises.
So this is a very unique pathway but one that Codesmith has gotten working like a machine and it's been critical, in my opinion, to helping them scale very well.
I agree a lot with this point, but I think there is value of all sides and often say reality is usually somewhere in between.
The most important thing is to have well sourced and correct information, otherwise people can't make good calls. If you have something from two people, say it's from two people. If you have a complete data set, say it's a complete data set, and have integrity in what you put out there.
The challenge with the bootcamp market is that bootcamps (which as for profit businesses they have every right to) are in the other camp, where they make things sound the best possible and it's good to see more sides of things.
For example, CIRR decided to remove all their reports on their website and delayed publishing of 2022 reports so they can publish longer placement windows. You can argue this is a good decision for transparency, but in the mean time, Codesmith had their…
Yeah I did analysis of how people present themselves on LinkedIn. Codesmith's placement numbers themselves in their CIRR are accurate. The numbers their senior advisor throws around are less so more like mischaracterizing.
My data shows that the average recent Codesmith placement (reported job in past few months) claimed to have 11.7 months of experience on their LinkedIn from their 3 week group project.
So while the outcomes themselves are good, people might be exaggerating or mischaracterizing their backgrounds to get there.
If you are answering the check in emails and saying you didn't get a job then they won't count it. If you entirely ghost then they will try to find you and have any friends you had on staff text you to see how life is going and try to get info.
CIRR has two fields to try to counter this:
1. Salary unavailable (so if they count it as a placement because of LI and you ghosted them it would show up in this field)
2. Job placed out of field. The definition is if the skills you learned are needed on the job or not. Codesmith teaches 5 things and only 1 is programming skills, the rest are soft skills, so not sure how they interpret that rule.
This post is sadly something I hear often right now and is why I'm not happy about CIRR changing their metric from 6 months placements to 12 months placements.
So much happens in that year of job hunting that it's largely irrelevant what the bootcamp did. The bootcamp could do nothing and then you could spend NINE MONTHS studying DS&A and get a job and the bootcamp gets credit.
Anyways, sorry to hear about this.
I know it's doom and gloom but it's also true that the market is just overloaded for entry level and the only consistent path I'm seeing is if you are a new grad from a top school, all other placements are one off. Sorry and Codesmith grads that lie about their experience are also getting placed.
That's what I say but they defend this to the core internally. The staff I've spoken too think it's part of the effort to build people's self confidence in overcoming imposter syndrome and if they kind dropped this narrative then people might not have the confidence to get those jobs anymore and if they don't have $125K CIRR numbers, people won't join anymore.
At Formation (we aren't a bootcamp or school and CIRR doesn't work for us) but we have a 95%ish completion on our rigid success form because we work with people intensely until they get a job.
The fact that it's so hard to gather outcomes from people is a sign that the longer and longer time goes by post-bootcamp, the less and less the bootcamp has anything to do with the outcome. And the fact that the more time goes by the harder and harder that gets, is also notable for this.
My 2 cents against using the 12 month window for placements, but that's a whole other discussion haha.
I also don't think you would fall into this bucket based on your post and your clear and transparency for 2+ years here.
I know a number of people that post on their own free will, a number of people who ask me to post things on their behalf, a number of people who just tell me about their multiple accounts and how they use them, it's a really wide spectrum.
Like I do have a trusted source who claims to have first hand evidence of an employee directly asking a group of trusted alumni to comment on specific posts and I want to figure out how THAT is happening and sprinkles down to others.
I don't know if you agree or not, but each cohort is a little different. Part time is a lot more chill (and hence why their ghosting rate is much higher on CIRR), new york onsite is super intense, east coast I get the most concerns about toxic positivity, etc... I don't know all the of the instructors…
Finishing in April means your CIRR 6 month mark was October, so that's about a 40% placement rate. I tend to round up because people that you dont' know ghost, and if their LinkedIn says they have a job, they count as a placement anyways. So let's say 50%, which is consistent with Triathletes' comment. This is also consistent with the data I have as well.
I still think they should be more transparent about this since since they are so all in on CIRR and transparency in results.
For anyone reading this who is skeptical because of the somewhat sketchier pro Codesmith posts recently, this person is a very long time reliable commenter who has been here for a long time.
So about 70% placement in A YEAR is quite low compared to the past CIRR results almost concerninly low because they are advertising an 80% placement rate in 6 months post graduation and telling people that in info sessions. Just because CIRR hasn't published an H2 2022 report, they have a report prepared already and know the numbers and that's deceptive in my personal opinion to life in customers knowing the latest placements rates are.mjch lower. The CIRR executive director already said that Codesmith is free to self publish those if they want to.
Everyone reading this - CIRR is expected to change the 6 month window to 12 months and I expect Codesmith to start quoting 12 months placement rates of…
Thanks for sharing this! This is pretty much exactly what I tell people 1-1 and if you are ready for this, it's the ideal place for you (and a number of people go!)... maybe we even chatted before you went haha.
If you are looking at other bootcamps and see super high CIRR numbers then looking to how it works and if it will work for you then it's absolutely the right choice, but if it doesn't work for you then you're going to be making a very costly mistake.
They laid off almost 20% of people, who are under gag agreements, but there are numerous people considering leaving or who left who are not. They have reduced cohorts, they are moving around resources for the Future Code program, there's so much going on that people should not be judging Codesmith by CIRR right now even if they did publish 2022 results. Everyone has to be so positive on camera and behind the scenes I bet Codesmith has no clue who the people who are most upset are.
Does that mean that the expectation is that if someone wasn't following CIRR standards, they will have to pass a consistent audit in order to be posted?
FOR REFERENCE OF WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT:
I mean they published [this](https://www.codesmith.io/blog/codesmiths-commitment-to-cirr-transparent-reporting-frequently-asked-questions) and stated:
>Who is included in the “hired by school” statistic?
Codesmith deeply values team members who grow their careers from the ground up and have a first-hand understanding of the mission behind the work that we do. For this reason, we appreciate instructors who have completed the immersive program themselves and understand the student experience. When you see the percentage hired by school on a Codesmith CIRR report, these are a very small handful of graduates that have moved on to work full time as instructors or Software Engineers for the compan…
I added a correction to my comment above. So Codesmith has been telling prospective students and staff their CIRR report will come out any day now. Given that this is changing and it will now come out in January is there anything stopping them from self publishing an official report themselves without the CIRR designation?
Hi Rachel, I have a bunch of questions! I very openly have numerous criticisms of the CIRR standards but I also appreciate the vision of having standardized outcomes. My goal is to ask fair questions with no shades of opinions and hope to have constructive discourse.
1. Why are the results delayed for Q2 2022 compared to the Q2 2021 timeframe for release?
2. Why did the domain name expire earlier this year and no one renewed it for about 10 days afterwards during the domain recovery period?
3. What are the annual fees for being a "member school"?
4. Why is CIRR a 501c6 business league instead of a 501c3 non-profit?
5. What's the process for making changes to the standards and how to members contribute to that? (this might be a very long answer but just a high level overview)
6. What is the role of a board member of CIRR and what does the board do?
7. Why are outcomes reported as percent…