Q: Why didn't schools publish H2 2022 outcomes like normal 6 months ago, followed by "new" 2022 full year outcomes six months later?
I'm working on a quick analysis of some of the 2022 year outcomes because one can reverse engineer H2 2022 given H1 2022 and full year 2022, and H2 shows some very concerning trends that are masked by 2022 full year outcomes.
Followup: Given these trends why not make schools publish H2 2022 outcomes as we transition to this new standard?
u/SimilarGlass5 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
"as we transition to this new standard" We? So Formation will be adhering this a (or any) reporting standard too? That's great news!
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I'm on Reddit representing myself.
RE: Formation, I've explained here fairly recently why CIRR or CIRR-like reports don't make sense in advancing open and transparent understanding of what Formation does. Maybe some other standard would but until we get to a point where Pathrise, Interview Kickstart and us need a standard, we publish information on our blog about outcomes: [https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1bhvmzf/comment/kvi0wyz](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1bhvmzf/comment/kvi0wyz)
u/SimilarGlass5 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
You, the owner of a competing company (whether you accept you're in competition with other SWE job pathway organizations or not) just happen to be focusing in on one company to critique them endlessly? That's completely impartial, you're right.
A bit like a politician endlessly
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
I think you're trolling me so I'm going to link to my recent answer about this too: [https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1bm94be/comment/kwdvx3n/](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1bm94be/comment/kwdvx3n/)
And my most recent post before the CIRR one today was about Launch School: [https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1blhhh0/launch\_schools\_2023\_capstone\_outcomes\_commentary/](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1blhhh0/launch_schools_2023_capstone_outcomes_commentary/)
If Codesmith did what Launch School did in that AMA and presentation, then there wouldn't be a discussion because it was just all super clear and transparent about what was going on in the market cohort to cohort and month to month.
u/CIRR_Board wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Yes! This is one of the initiatives we are considering going forward. We’d like to be even more inclusive and would love to find opportunities to work with different kinds of technology bootcamps, with transparent standards so students can feel they’re making an informed choice.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
From the interview prep company point of view, like Pathrise, Formation, Interview Kickstart, these places aren't schools and aren't 'education' and I can't see why they would join CIRR (personal opinion)
It might end up bing a waste of time to come up with a standard you think will work for these companies by observing from the outside without getting to know how they work first.
I know for Formation, it would be like making a standard for Personal Trainers for how good they are at being a personal trainer based on analyzing all of their clients. Some people are overweight and want to just lose weight. Some people are in good shape and want to get ripped. Some people want to get skinny. Some people want to run a marathon. Some people want to be a sprinter. Some people are recovering form injuries.
Like weight lost, muscle gained all misleading metrics. Some people want to lose weight and some want to gain weight. Some want to lose muscle, some gain muscle.
Maybe come up with a universal fitness test? And have people do it before and after? People goals would need to be quantified, locked in, and then measured against.
With CIRR right now, there is one goal - placed or not placed. With interview prep there are dozens of goals and some not quantifyable.
Maybe doing a universal satisfaction survey?
But at that point, is that even is CIRR's charger anymore and why? Just focus on the charter and the bootcamp industry no?
u/fluffyr42 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
>Q: Why didn't schools publish H2 2022 outcomes like normal 6 months ago, followed by "new" 2022 full year outcomes six months later?
Right, I think this makes a lot more sense if the goal is transparency.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Yeah no kidding, and and u/CIRR_Board (Fluffy works at Rithm School) didn't answer that question... if they want you guys at Rithm and people like Launch School (who want to be more transparent than CIRR is today) to join CIRR and help it grow, CIRR shouldn't broadcast themselves as the gold standard of transparency trying to get other people to join with an arrogant attitude like this below:
>Schools will care about this if prospective students care about this. The more students who ask a school why they aren't reporting to CIRR or to see their outcomes reports, the more pressure there is on them to participate. We will continue to try to increase participation, but I will put out the bat signal to you all for help.
Some people don't join CIRR because they want it to be more transparent and why face an uphill battle when they can make their own standards more easily on their own.
That's not to say the CIRR standard is decent, it's not extremely far from perfect or the gold standard, and acknowledging that and seeking help to improve it might go farther than trying to "pressure" (their words) people into joining CIRR.
u/CIRR_Board wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Follow up thought here from one of our board members (Dimitri) after the close of our AMA:
Schools will care about this if prospective students care about this. The more students who ask a school why they aren't reporting to CIRR or to see their outcomes reports, the more pressu
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Are you saying that people should be pressuring schools to join CIRR or pressuring them to be more transparent? Or are you implying that CIRR is the only source of transparency?
Rithm School and Launch School are best of the best bootcamps and both have a similar vision of providing transparent data and choose to not be in CIRR because of they have different views on transparency than CIRR does.
If CIRR is going to put efforts in lobbying to try to brand themselves as the only transparent source of bootcamp data, it's not surprise no one wants to be a CIRR member and don't reply to your emails.... the spec is full of issues and problems.
I don't even want to help fix those because you aren't open and transparent about how the spec is managed. You said you had a meeting to adopt the spec AND approved the results at the same time? and the new spec was published alongside results instead of prior to them.
Finally, of all the loopholes and clarifications that could have been fixed in the 2024 revision, the only thing changed was the 360 day time window... which is arguable more self serving to bootcamps than say fixing the reporting requirements for salary data, or clarifying how medians work (the medians are not the "median salary of a graduate", they are the "median salary of placed graduates who reported salary data" yet Codesmith advertises this on their website as 'Software Engineering Immersive Grads Median Annual Base Salary"
I know I'm being a bit of a jerk here and should probably backchannel this stuff, but I am trying to be open and transparent even if it's a bit awkward for me.
u/CIRR_Board wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Great question(s). Our primary focus is on the initial employment outcome. The first in-field job that a student accepts is the one documented by the school and submitted to CIRR. Otherwise, we would see subsequent offers to fall under a different bucket of long-term employment o
u/michaelnovatireplied·
The CIRR spec isn't consistent with this. cc u/StephenScript, u/CIRR_Board
1. "If a student has held multiple positions, you may report on the position acquired at your discretion. However, you must use the salary of the position that matches the student’s offer or start date."
This sounds like you can use offer you want, as long as the the start date corresponds to the salary.
2. "Documentation for all job outcomes must: Indicate that the offer was accepted."
So only an accepted offer can count in CIRR data and not just offers received.
u/fluffyr42 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
So in that case, would it make more sense to publish every six months, with updated data relating to the previous six months?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
+1 to this, I agree with adding 12 months, but the question was about the timing of results, not about adding 12 months as an option
u/michaelnovatireplied·
1 year later. No audited 2022 results released, no 2023 results published, no changes at all to CIRR, other than increasing the number of reasons a bootcamp can use to exclude a student from data.
Words are words and actions are actions. I know CIRR has good intentions and it's not personal, but it's hope, optimism and good intentions should not mislead people about the state of the market for the past 2 years.
It's not putting the student first.