Thanks for sharing this! This is pretty much exactly what I tell people 1-1 and if you are ready for this, it's the ideal place for you (and a number of people go!)... maybe we even chatted before you went haha.
If you are looking at other bootcamps and see super high CIRR numbers then looking to how it works and if it will work for you then it's absolutely the right choice, but if it doesn't work for you then you're going to be making a very costly mistake.
u/dak78 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
im a part time codesmith grad who got a job this year and I agree with your unvarnished take of the program.
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i think it should be a disclaimer for anyone interested in doing it.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
We finally agreed on something. This is the take I tell people all the time both publicly and in 1-1, yet Codesmith thinks I'm trying to take down their program (I've been shared this repeatedly from employees) and troll them with "lies".
u/FatFireThrowaway23 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Short answer: yes.
Long answer. I mean, I'm kind of giving a raw, cynical appraisal of the bad parts, because that's what I was missing when I was researching. You should see the bad parts from the perspective of someone who might view it super negatively, so you won't fe
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited
OP: how did the tone change between staff and consultants? do you know if the staff are aware of what the consultants are saying?
u/CodedCoder wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Copy and paste code smith ad, was wondering when this weeks would pop up.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Whether this was encouraged by Codesmith or not, it's at least honest. I dont think a random person would read this and join Codesmith versus many of the other pro Codesmith fluffy posts about how amazing it is without any specifics.
u/CodedCoder wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
It’s contradictory, they give the bad things then explain them away, also rate it 11/10 and also a never used account just sitting there, come on bro lol.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I mean I talk to people that literally say "I will lie, chest and steal to get a job" and this post would be reassuring to them.
I also talk to people that think the Codesmith community is amazing but they never lie and they are hence conflicted. And some people go but are conscious of all of this and some people choose another program.
I mean their enrollment is struggling and they might be trying a new strategy because the puff pieces have not been working. so maybe they're trying to lock in the right people? I don't know. I still think that this is better than the previous stuff because even if it is planted, it aligns more with what I hear from lots of alumni who are successful too.
u/evanhackett wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
If they really teach people to "lie" and do "ethically uncomfortable" things, I can't see myself recommending Codesmith. Just for the record, when I went to Hack Reactor in 2015, there was nothing shady or unethical going on. So, not all bootcamps are like this!
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
The documentation explicitly says to not lie, but they then also do background checks confirming months or years of experience for a 3 week OSP project. The staff remind people to not lie, but the career coaches help graduates fudge their resumes to lie.
It's really weird for sure.
I have numerous behind the scenes sources on this so I can't say that much without doxing people at this time, but it's something they are both aware of, but have created a narrative to justify it - so in their minds it's not lying.
u/Electrical_Mine7981 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
makes no sense. if it were ez why not every bootcamp do this? this review is reads like real person with a brain. sure they exaggerated but who doesn't lol. no program is perfect. youre spamming when you seem biased AF imo baby
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited
Everyone doesn't do this because, as I said above, most people have higher ethical standards. Codesmith grads believe they have imposter syndrome so their resume reflects their 'true potential'
u/femio wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
>The documentation explicitly says to not lie, but they then also do background checks confirming months or years of experience for a 3 week OSP project.
what do you mean by this?
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
The documentation says not to lie, means that their guides and docs and presentations tell people not to lie. It's awkwardly one of the FIRST THINGS they tell people.
The background checks? So they have a sister charity called OSLabs Inc. A member of that charity (who also happens to be Codesmiths chief academic officer) will do background checks for your work with the charity.
The thing is the "charity work" is really the 3 week long OSP group project. However I have first hand direct video evidence of an employee saying that the charity will sign letters of reference for your entire time at Codesmith, and longer if you "keep working on the project". A lot of people claim on their resume they did this for 6 to 18 months (as they continue job hunting) but almost no one actually had any involvement after their 3 weeks.
NOTE: Part time people spend longer on their OSP's because it's part time, but get credit for 9 months of OSP work on their letters of reference.
I've long complained about this because I think it's ethically wrong, but that's my opinion and you can decide for yourself.
u/CodedCoder wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
if this is true, it is absolutely horrible tbh. And it should be illegal.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I have an actual letter of reference yeah, I can't share it because it will likely dox the person who it's for.
u/Electrical_Mine7981 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
https://static.spacecrafted.com/b13328575ece40d8853472b9e0cf2047/r/c77fe728c552448599826332e49cb0ab/1/Codesmith%20Part-Time%20Remote%20Audited-AUP%20H1%202022.pdf
20% of code smith grads from their part time program got senior dev roles right after the bootcamp in 2022.
thes
u/michaelnovatireplied·
...where LinkedIn is a valid source of job titles for CIRR, which their auditor called 'basically the gospel'
u/FatFireThrowaway23 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I think we did talk. Or, at least, I've read all of your posts. I was motivated in part by your list of the 5 types of people who succeed after Codesmith. I actually know some other CS almuni who went to Formation as well, and highly recommended it. I was planning to apply in
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Hi, I highly recommend you settle into the job first and feel good for about six months and then talk to someone in our team about your next goals and see if it's a good fit. In this market, having 2+ YOE (like legit work) is ideal for opening up doors and starting six months before then would be ideal, but ultimately depends on your goals and the exact current job you have and happy to chat more to give more personal advice.
u/evanhackett wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
You realize that if everyone did this, then the people doing it would no longer stand out. The only reason it "works" is because most people are honest. You can get ahead in life by lying, I guess, but thankfully most of us aren't doing that.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Maybe professional atheletes using steroids is a good analogy. Like Codesmith has a really high bar to the average resident is quite strong already, and the lying is like doing steroids for that extra boost. Not everyone does it, but even some of the best do... and just like professional athletes, they do it because "everyone else is" and lose track of why we're all SWEs to begin with.
u/CodedCoder wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Agreed, it is crazy lol.
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy· edited★ FEATURED
\+1 there is a common pattern of Codesmith comments that get 10 or more upvotes in < 30 mins. I had evidence shared with me of a senior leader asking people to comment on a thread, and it's really sad that it happens, and they blame declining enrollment on anything but their leadership and just have stern talks with admissions people and pay them extra money to fill cohorts.
u/xtc2008 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
There will always be deniers because they couldn’t do it or jealous someone got farther in a shorter amount of time.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
If you are judging peope by how much money they make in as little time as possible, you are not setup to make 7 or 8 figures down the road in as little as a few years. You're going to be limiting yourself if you think you are truly better than most other people here for going to Codesmith an making $300K out of it and Codesmith is not equiped to help people like you get there.
u/CodedCoder wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I absolutely 100 percent do not believe you went from never working in the industry, to being a Sr engineer. With absolutely no job or workforce experience, no matter how good you were at algorithms. I know you all try to sell CodeSmith as the place that will teach you for 3 mont
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
The person is indeed a senior swe at a big 2nd/3rd tier company and got the job out of Codesmith.
The company has incredibly high churn because people use it as a feeder to FAANG and it's known to pay higher salaries to try to keep people as a result. It's a great place to go out of a bootcamp but I wouldn't celebrate is an an endgame role unless it happens to be the environment for you. And this person can likely be making $500K at a FAANG company if they took the jump and approached it right.
This person also listed their OSP as 1 year 11 months of work experience, didn't specify it was open source or a project on their profile and their GitHub contributions were 44 commits over 4 weeks. I guess my math is bad but somehow that = 2 years???
u/CodedCoder wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Agreed, it is crazy lol.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
\+1 there is a common pattern of Codesmith comments that get 10 or more upvotes in < 30 mins. I had evidence shared with me of a senior leader asking people to comment on a thread, and it's really sad that it happens, and they blame declining enrollment on anything but their leadership and just have stern talks with admissions people and pay them extra money to fill cohorts. (all second hand from primary sources)
This person is also affiliated with one of the instructors at Codesmith that is super all in on Codesmith and likely asked them to comment, and likely a leadership member asked the instructor to comment. I say "likely" because I'm not supposed to know these things haha.
u/illustrious_feijoa wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Without 5+ YOE, they would likely be leveled at Google L4 or Amazon L5, not even close to $500k. FAANG doesn't care too much about job title, even from tier 2/3 companies (not sure what that tier consists of, but I'm guessing something like Doordash or Instacart).
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Yeah that's a good point it would be extremely hard to just apply online and get interviewed as a L5.
If the person gets promoted to staff though at this company, they will have a narrative for a high L4 offer and possibly L5 - would need to deep dive into what the person did.
I went from new grad to E5 at Facebook in roughly 2 years, so it's definitely possible, but it's not the norm.
Not to toot my own horn here, but that's why things like Formation exist, because everyone has a unique story that needs to be untangled. We can only do so much, but there are exception cases when this kind of thing can happen.
u/slickvic33 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I have a similar take. It is what it is. And it is a good experience for people ready to grind
u/michaelnovatireplied·
You also work there though... :D
u/Flimsy-Possibility17 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
This is why reference checks and background checks exist lol. Even if this was a real person not a marketer, you can't just blatantly lie your way through the process. I've seen so many people try this, and they're a soft yes/maybe but we get to the final step and their reference
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Codesmith's sister charity (OSLabs) that manages the projects, provides background check letters and reference checks to confirm your time. I have a video record of an employee saying that they will sign off on 'your entire time at Codesmith' under your "OS Labs work" and longer if you "kept working on your project". A sample letter I reviewed showed active work over 4 weeks, but the letter stated 3 months of experience.
u/Flimsy-Possibility17 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
And even if we counted OSLabs as "works experience" there quite literally is a difference between hey I worked 5 years at XYZ ad I worked 3 months at the non profit tech accelerator. HR might be dumb but engineers aren't lol and HR also isn't that dumb
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
It reads more like 1-2 years of experience, and most companies that hire Codesmith grads are smaller non-tech companies OR contract roles that don't really know or check.
But correct, I have a number of industry friends who have gotten upset at recruiters for wasting their time in the next rounds, and experienced engineers can tell in seconds/minutes of a behavioral interview.
u/Happyhotel wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Who cares? I need a paycheck. If I am performing the job well and earning that paycheck I am not defrauding my manager.
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited
You are harming all the people of equal skill who didn't lie or don't lie. If Codesmith is condoning this behavior, the thousands of people who don't lie who are looking for entry level jobs could sue Codesmith for damages for that.
u/Happyhotel wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
By your logic it would be impossible to get a job via a bootcamp. I got a job via codesmith. Since starting I have received two raises, multiple performance bonuses, and a promotion. I am not defrauding the company in any way and will never regret what I did to get this position.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
1. Maybe that's the problem with bootcamps if all graduates have to lie to get jobs?
2. Individual cases vary - people who go to Codesmith have a higher entrance bar and are allegedly already "hirable as junior engineers" so it's likely that more exception cases of people who can perform well on the job are from Codesmith grads, but just going to Codesmith isn't the reason why, YOU are.
3. I've posted extensively on this but there are four buckets of grads I've seen: ones who do well, one's who get fired on their first job or laid off because they don't make it, one's who struggle and barely get by and job hop, ones that just can't get a job.
4. How do you know you couldn't have done better with something else other than Codesmith? If you are as successful as you say you are, this would be top of mind. If you aren't making 7 figures yet then aim higher if you're that good.
u/Happyhotel wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Why would it matter if I could have done better with something other than codesmith? I went to codesmith and it worked out extremely well for me. It is on the company hiring to determine whether a candidate will work out for a given position. Given how much tech companies depend
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I've been here for almost two years now and heard numerous arguments almost word for word the same and I've heard numerous arguments that this is offensive and fraudulent. We're not going to solve this in this thread... people reading this get to decide which approach they want. I tell people who agree with you to go to Codesmith on a weekly basis. I tell people who disagree to not go on a weekly basis.
u/Happyhotel wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
What I take issue with here is people who might miss out on an enormous opportunity because they read one of your comments. But yes there really isn’t much to be accomplished in this discussion.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
We're on the same page there... I actively try to steer the RIGHT people TO Codesmith for that reason for sure, if I think they have a higher chance of being those people.
u/Erised_phoenix wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Hi, could you please explain how/why employers hire recent bootcamp grads with no SWE work history, as mid-level SWEs? Since in every job posting even entry level jobs require at least 2 years. What convinces them?
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
Three Important factors:
1. flat out lying and having the bootcamp verify your experience to get through a background check
2. performing well on interviews. Whether it's raw work ethic or ability to sponge knowledge or extreme practice of the narratives, and relentlessly until you get a job
3. The job is the beginning. You have to be ready to put in work everyone, put in nights and weekends to secretly catch-up while pretending to be relaxing etc...
This is what I hear from Codemsith grads but I'm happy to share my personal opinions too.