Zooming out, masters degrees are super complicated.
You know how 2U/Edx/Trilogy has partnerships with most of the top schools to run bootcamps under their names.
Masters degrees fall into a similar world of for profit, where a lot of top schools that have expensive, short degrees that they offer online or in remote cities for a very high fee.
The real benefit I'm talking about above for CS degrees is if you are able to engage directly with recruiters who are dedicated to hiring from your school and get priority interviews and "the red carpet treatment" (recruiters taking you out for dinner, fancy events, boxes of coconut water mailed to you).
It's not going there just grants you these benefits, they happen because the students end up being superstars at the companies and the recruiters go back for the next year's graduates.
The fundamental problem with bootcamps is that there isn't…
I partially agree with the OP yeah. I do think the "ship has sailed" for a group of people that had a previous career they didn't like, saw the flexibility and high salaries of SWEs in a youtube video or an ad, and impulsively joined a bootcamp to career switch without considering all the options.
I do think a smaller number of people it's still a viable option (not THE ONLY option, but a viable one). People who have put in months or years of self study, have a lot of personal runway/savings and no hard headlines, and have a previous career that has some or many transferrable soft skills to SWE (e.g. lawyer, doctor, accountant, teacher). Then a bootcamp might be a good option to focus and make the final jump.
People post on here when they get their job or shortly after to celebrate, but it's not the end, it's the beginning and there is quite a journey ahead - of ups and downs.
But to…
My 2 cents are that it depends on:
1. your current programming and professional background (and prior education)
2. your goals in your next job hunt (including both the type of job and also the location)
3. your timeframe range (if you have one or not)
In the current job market, going to a bootcamp with little to no experience isn't a great idea because the market is really tough. The graduates getting jobs are those from bootcamps that have a high bar and require a lot of self-teaching before even being admitted (e.g. Codesmith and Launch School, both take months to get into).
That said, regarding certificates, they are useful if you are targeting specific roles that explicitly require them - tend to be roles at contracting firms, for example - and by having the cert, you can get put on the bench for new clients. But if that's not your plan, I don't think getting a certificate is rea…
I don't agree with the representation of all of the things that person sid, but feel free to DM me because I see you posting frequently about Codesmith as well. I talk to a lot of people who work/worked at Codesmith... there is a heck of a lot of churn in admissions and instruction and people's titles and jobs change like every week... there are dozens of people that Codesmith long forgot about that know a heck of a lot and share a heck of a lot.
I'll I'm going to say is people trust me because they see how I protect them in my frequent/daily posting and don't reveal what they tell me while still presenting the views they want shared but feel unable to for all kinds of reasons, but the stuff people share is well beyond anything I post.
So algo sessions are done in either JS or Python. Generally with your preferred language but it could be done in either. The main point of sessions is to learn and practice how to think about problems, so the language doesn't matter that much. But you don't develop a JS expertise at Formation.
We do have frontend work you can that goes through for JS language practice, but similar to DS&A it's more practice focused than teaching focused.
So the TLDR is that you probably want to be somewhat familiar with it but to not worry or stress about being good at it before starting.
I actually explicitly removed Outco from the list because they seem to have shut down and aren't taking applications and numerous people I've talked to said they have been non responsive to them :S.
Obviously I'm extremely bias but I would say that:
Formation is a completely different world from Outco, I know some people that did Outco and came to Formation and can connect you. For example, you get a team of three dedicated support staff, an adaptive platform, mocks with actual senior engineers and recruiters who actually work at FAANG companies, personalized prep for upcoming interviews, a custom platform built from the ground up for your progress, scheduling, feedback, job hunt tracking, etc...
Interview Kickstart is a little more structured than Formation and not adaptive to your progress and needs, but it's consistently been ok for preparing for interviews. Similar to Formation th…
I'm bias because I'm the co-founder of a mentorship platform/career accelerator, but I would consider this type of option if you already have work experience - [Formation](https://Formation.dev).dev, Interview Kickstart, Pathrise, Coachable (all of these have deferred payment options as well). These are all very different but they are all built to prepare you in different ways for the job hunt.
Since you already have legit work experience a bootcamp probably isn't what you want to do because the majority of people you work with be much further behind. **You will have way more exerience than most of the instructors who teach you.** And you don't actually learn much raw skills. If you do want to choose a bootcamp, Codesmith is probably the best option for you if you want to hustle your way into the next job and get all the support you need doing that, but I wouldn't go there to actually…
Three Important factors:
1. flat out lying and having the bootcamp verify your experience to get through a background check
2. performing well on interviews. Whether it's raw work ethic or ability to sponge knowledge or extreme practice of the narratives, and relentlessly until you get a job
3. The job is the beginning. You have to be ready to put in work everyone, put in nights and weekends to secretly catch-up while pretending to be relaxing etc...
This is what I hear from Codemsith grads but I'm happy to share my personal opinions too.
Yeah I push back on people who have crazy conspiracy theories and I only say things that I have observed first hand, or been given evidence of, and I have many, many people of all kinds of relationships to Codesmith share their own things with me.
... the decision isn't always A or B, it can also be "none of the above" and Codesmith IS BETTER than many programs objectively, but it still might not be the right program for YOU and to me that's critical to evaluate.
I've been here for almost two years now and heard numerous arguments almost word for word the same and I've heard numerous arguments that this is offensive and fraudulent. We're not going to solve this in this thread... people reading this get to decide which approach they want. I tell people who agree with you to go to Codesmith on a weekly basis. I tell people who disagree to not go on a weekly basis.
1. Maybe that's the problem with bootcamps if all graduates have to lie to get jobs?
2. Individual cases vary - people who go to Codesmith have a higher entrance bar and are allegedly already "hirable as junior engineers" so it's likely that more exception cases of people who can perform well on the job are from Codesmith grads, but just going to Codesmith isn't the reason why, YOU are.
3. I've posted extensively on this but there are four buckets of grads I've seen: ones who do well, one's who get fired on their first job or laid off because they don't make it, one's who struggle and barely get by and job hop, ones that just can't get a job.
4. How do you know you couldn't have done better with something else other than Codesmith? If you are as successful as you say you are, this would be top of mind. If you aren't making 7 figures yet then aim higher if you're that good.
It reads more like 1-2 years of experience, and most companies that hire Codesmith grads are smaller non-tech companies OR contract roles that don't really know or check.
But correct, I have a number of industry friends who have gotten upset at recruiters for wasting their time in the next rounds, and experienced engineers can tell in seconds/minutes of a behavioral interview.
Codesmith's sister charity (OSLabs) that manages the projects, provides background check letters and reference checks to confirm your time. I have a video record of an employee saying that they will sign off on 'your entire time at Codesmith' under your "OS Labs work" and longer if you "kept working on your project". A sample letter I reviewed showed active work over 4 weeks, but the letter stated 3 months of experience.
Yeah that's a good point it would be extremely hard to just apply online and get interviewed as a L5.
If the person gets promoted to staff though at this company, they will have a narrative for a high L4 offer and possibly L5 - would need to deep dive into what the person did.
I went from new grad to E5 at Facebook in roughly 2 years, so it's definitely possible, but it's not the norm.
Not to toot my own horn here, but that's why things like Formation exist, because everyone has a unique story that needs to be untangled. We can only do so much, but there are exception cases when this kind of thing can happen.
\+1 there is a common pattern of Codesmith comments that get 10 or more upvotes in < 30 mins. I had evidence shared with me of a senior leader asking people to comment on a thread, and it's really sad that it happens, and they blame declining enrollment on anything but their leadership and just have stern talks with admissions people and pay them extra money to fill cohorts. (all second hand from primary sources)
This person is also affiliated with one of the instructors at Codesmith that is super all in on Codesmith and likely asked them to comment, and likely a leadership member asked the instructor to comment. I say "likely" because I'm not supposed to know these things haha.
The person is indeed a senior swe at a big 2nd/3rd tier company and got the job out of Codesmith.
The company has incredibly high churn because people use it as a feeder to FAANG and it's known to pay higher salaries to try to keep people as a result. It's a great place to go out of a bootcamp but I wouldn't celebrate is an an endgame role unless it happens to be the environment for you. And this person can likely be making $500K at a FAANG company if they took the jump and approached it right.
This person also listed their OSP as 1 year 11 months of work experience, didn't specify it was open source or a project on their profile and their GitHub contributions were 44 commits over 4 weeks. I guess my math is bad but somehow that = 2 years???
If you are judging peope by how much money they make in as little time as possible, you are not setup to make 7 or 8 figures down the road in as little as a few years. You're going to be limiting yourself if you think you are truly better than most other people here for going to Codesmith an making $300K out of it and Codesmith is not equiped to help people like you get there.
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy· edited★ FEATURED
\+1 there is a common pattern of Codesmith comments that get 10 or more upvotes in < 30 mins. I had evidence shared with me of a senior leader asking people to comment on a thread, and it's really sad that it happens, and they blame declining enrollment on anything but their leadership and just have stern talks with admissions people and pay them extra money to fill cohorts.
Maybe professional atheletes using steroids is a good analogy. Like Codesmith has a really high bar to the average resident is quite strong already, and the lying is like doing steroids for that extra boost. Not everyone does it, but even some of the best do... and just like professional athletes, they do it because "everyone else is" and lose track of why we're all SWEs to begin with.
Hi, I highly recommend you settle into the job first and feel good for about six months and then talk to someone in our team about your next goals and see if it's a good fit. In this market, having 2+ YOE (like legit work) is ideal for opening up doors and starting six months before then would be ideal, but ultimately depends on your goals and the exact current job you have and happy to chat more to give more personal advice.
The documentation says not to lie, means that their guides and docs and presentations tell people not to lie. It's awkwardly one of the FIRST THINGS they tell people.
The background checks? So they have a sister charity called OSLabs Inc. A member of that charity (who also happens to be Codesmiths chief academic officer) will do background checks for your work with the charity.
The thing is the "charity work" is really the 3 week long OSP group project. However I have first hand direct video evidence of an employee saying that the charity will sign letters of reference for your entire time at Codesmith, and longer if you "keep working on the project". A lot of people claim on their resume they did this for 6 to 18 months (as they continue job hunting) but almost no one actually had any involvement after their 3 weeks.
NOTE: Part time people spend longer on their OSP's because it's pa…
The documentation explicitly says to not lie, but they then also do background checks confirming months or years of experience for a 3 week OSP project. The staff remind people to not lie, but the career coaches help graduates fudge their resumes to lie.
It's really weird for sure.
I have numerous behind the scenes sources on this so I can't say that much without doxing people at this time, but it's something they are both aware of, but have created a narrative to justify it - so in their minds it's not lying.
I mean I talk to people that literally say "I will lie, chest and steal to get a job" and this post would be reassuring to them.
I also talk to people that think the Codesmith community is amazing but they never lie and they are hence conflicted. And some people go but are conscious of all of this and some people choose another program.
I mean their enrollment is struggling and they might be trying a new strategy because the puff pieces have not been working. so maybe they're trying to lock in the right people? I don't know. I still think that this is better than the previous stuff because even if it is planted, it aligns more with what I hear from lots of alumni who are successful too.
Thanks for sharing this! This is pretty much exactly what I tell people 1-1 and if you are ready for this, it's the ideal place for you (and a number of people go!)... maybe we even chatted before you went haha.
If you are looking at other bootcamps and see super high CIRR numbers then looking to how it works and if it will work for you then it's absolutely the right choice, but if it doesn't work for you then you're going to be making a very costly mistake.
I 100000% agree and I'm speaking out about one program in particular, Codesmith, that I don't think is being transparent about the reality of the market and a number of staff/former staff/alumni have privately messaged me asking me too.
Is there a reason you don't want to say where you went though? Every bootcamp and program is different.
I'm extremely biased because I'm the co-founder of Formation, but I would consider coaching (not necessarily at Formation but somewhere). It's possible that you're over focused on just passing LC DSA questions and lost track of the whole point of these interviews.
This is the problem solving approach we follow and if you don't have a clean, systematic approach to problems, that could be why you aren't passing, so check this out:
https://formation.dev/blog/the-engineering-method/
Can you elaborate more on what toxic positivity means to you there? I hear it a lot and have numerous examples myself but I'm curious what examples you see that way.
Like I've seen both dismissive and ignoring of criticism but also covering it up by asking people to remove posts or tracking people down who have NDAs or gag agreements and asking them to remove stuff.
Definitely not all, some do, and I have no idea if it's more or less than CS grads or the general pop, but these are the four buckets I've identified IMO and they apply to a lot of bootcamps. I just tend to see wayyyyyy more Codesmith people who come to me in their first job and ask for advice because they are struggling to keep up and don't want the company to know they have no experience because they stretched it a bit during interviews. But 100% anecdotal and not can't any meaningful statistics from that, jusy my 2 cents from my position.
https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/173usbz/job\_market/k46xcya/?context=3
1. They aren't just looking for raw coding skills, but communication, collaboration, improvement, etc....
2. The fact that you care so much means you probably prepared a lot more for the 2nd one and are/will show great improvement.
3. If you get anxious or freeze up, take a deep breathe and focus on clear communication.
4. If you get nervous, or are worried about panicking in the interview, PRACTICE A PROBLEM SOLVING METHOD and stick to it. BIAS, THIS IS MY COMPANY: this problem solving method can be used to solve any problem, helps people pass Google interviews without doing my LeetCode. It's more complicated than it seems to get good at this under pressure, but check it out: [https://formation.dev/blog/the-engineering-method/](https://formation.dev/blog/the-engineering-method/)
5. Most of the interviews are friendly and collaborative, but don't be TOO friendly, you want to balance dem…
\+1 this, Codesmiths placement rate isn't great right now. They published some SALARY numbers for 2023 on their blog but conveniently left out placement rates. Fortunately I know a bunch of people who work and worked there and they share these things internally - the numbers are down, they know it, they aren't telling anyone and people have a right to not be happy about that and to demand numbers. If Codesmith info sessions and their website tout an 80% placement rate when their internal presentations show a lower number - that's not cool.
They laid off almost 20% of people, who are under gag agreements, but there are numerous people considering leaving or who left who are not. They have reduced cohorts, they are moving around resources for the Future Code program, there's so much going on that people should not be judging Codesmith by CIRR right now even if they did publish 2022 results. Everyone has to be so positive on camera and behind the scenes I bet Codesmith has no clue who the people who are most upset are.
\+1 this, I don't agree with the decision to withhold 2023 results until 2024 so that 12 month placement rates can be reported.
From my conversations with people, numerous +1s to publish the H2 2022 data as is, and then republish 2022 data with 12 month placement rates.
Even people who graduated in H1 2023's data isn't relevant right now as the market changes week to week, and H2 2022 is even irrelevant at this point.
At the end of the day, it's no secret bootcamps are cutting back: Hack Reactor just chopped of the part time program, Codesmith laid off almost 20% of staff and a few people have left since then from what I've seen - and remaining staff are feeling pressure to pick up the slack (on the admissions, instruction, and placements side of things).
So trying to massage the data to present a better picture will never connect with an educated audience that knows the market is…
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
\+1 this, I don't agree with the decision to withhold 2023 results until 2024 so that 12 month placement rates can be reported.
From my conversations with people, numerous +1s to publish the H2 2022 data as is, and then republish 2022 data with 12 month placement rates.
Even people who graduated in H1 2023's data isn't relevant right now as the market changes week to week, and H2 2022 is even irrelevant at this point.
At the end of the day, it's no secret bootcamps are cutting back: Hack Reactor just chopped of the part time program, Codesmith laid off almost 20% of staff and a few people have left since then from what I've seen - and remaining staff are feeling pressure to pick up the slack (on the admissions, instruction, and placements side of things).
So trying to massage the data to present a better picture will never connect with an educated audience that knows the market is b…
I would walk through the exploration. You might say something like "I think I have a good instinct on where to go in this problem but let me walk through first".
And then do a typical:
1. confirm you understand
2. identify a few approaches (even though you know the one you want to go with)
3. then start coding
This is my company's approach that you could follow, but highly recommend following a structure problem solving method even if you know the solution: https://formation.dev/blog/the-engineering-method/
In all fairness, Codesmith literally says in their info sessions "If you are admitted into Codesmith you are already employable as a junior engineer and Codesmith will turn you into a mid-level or senior engineer". If you know anyone there you yell at them with the same insults and tone as your comments here.
Hi, I appreciate you for being transparent and disclosing biases, it's really hard to know who is posting what on here and even though your post is obviously very positive, it helps having context and seeing your passion come out.
I'm not sure what comments or posts you are referring to, but I personally don't think being "the best" bootcamp in this market necessarily means you should go there in this market. (I'm NOT making an analogy between bootcamps and cigarettes in ANY way) But being the best cigarette company doesn't mean everyone should be smoking, but if you do, maybe you would buy them from that company. So people recommending not to do Tech Elevator (or any bootcamp) right now might not be attacks on TE itself.
Finally, I don't think there's any best or worst programs and the right program for the right person is key. Codesmith has super high outcomes but isn't the best prog…
Does that mean that the expectation is that if someone wasn't following CIRR standards, they will have to pass a consistent audit in order to be posted?
FOR REFERENCE OF WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT:
I mean they published [this](https://www.codesmith.io/blog/codesmiths-commitment-to-cirr-transparent-reporting-frequently-asked-questions) and stated:
>Who is included in the “hired by school” statistic?
Codesmith deeply values team members who grow their careers from the ground up and have a first-hand understanding of the mission behind the work that we do. For this reason, we appreciate instructors who have completed the immersive program themselves and understand the student experience. When you see the percentage hired by school on a Codesmith CIRR report, these are a very small handful of graduates that have moved on to work full time as instructors or Software Engineers for the compan…
I added a correction to my comment above. So Codesmith has been telling prospective students and staff their CIRR report will come out any day now. Given that this is changing and it will now come out in January is there anything stopping them from self publishing an official report themselves without the CIRR designation?
Hi Rachel, I have a bunch of questions! I very openly have numerous criticisms of the CIRR standards but I also appreciate the vision of having standardized outcomes. My goal is to ask fair questions with no shades of opinions and hope to have constructive discourse.
1. Why are the results delayed for Q2 2022 compared to the Q2 2021 timeframe for release?
2. Why did the domain name expire earlier this year and no one renewed it for about 10 days afterwards during the domain recovery period?
3. What are the annual fees for being a "member school"?
4. Why is CIRR a 501c6 business league instead of a 501c3 non-profit?
5. What's the process for making changes to the standards and how to members contribute to that? (this might be a very long answer but just a high level overview)
6. What is the role of a board member of CIRR and what does the board do?
7. Why are outcomes reported as percent…
I think this reply characterizes the controversy as I see it as it represents the attitude that Codesmith itself has about things.
I went to an info session once where the one of the speakers 'We're ready, ask us the hard questions' followed with a bunch of thumbs up emojis. So I asked passive agressively (anonymously) 'How did you get your current job 8 months ago' (because their LinkedIn showed they were employed as a Software Engineer at their OSP - no "OSP" - the company didn't say "Open Source" in a single place, or OSLabs. NO RESPONSE. No emojis, no acknowledge, like it wasn't even asked.
Like you can't say give me all the hard questions and then only answer the hard questions you want.
This attitude is pervasive at Codesmith and in this subreddit.
I'm pretty tough on Codesmith in this regard and I haven't seen evidence yet that people are paid to write reviews, I have seen potential symptoms of that but I personally can't draw that conclusion.
I think that people who love Codesmith might be mislead into posting and commenting without realizing that it was strategic on behalf of the company.
I don't know if you've been to any Codesmith events, but a number of people there are like crazy crazy crazy friendly, positive, and emoji reaction to everything-type vibe and I can easily see how "an instructor saying everyone: we need to tell the world how awesome this is!" can turn into Reddit comments and posts, and the instructor said that because the program manager said that enrollment is down and they need to try to boost enrollment and the instructor too in on their own accord to ask people to do that.
Like I don't think it's like b…
Good outcomes + marketing.
1. Codesmith has the highest outcomes on paper and about a quarter of people who go there found them on Reddit (internal second hand number)... so people find it on Reddit and then come back to where they found it to talk about it.
2. Rithm is a very tiny program, but is also good and word spreads. But give it's size and much smaller alumni size I don't expect as many students to hang around.
3. Launch School Unique mastery model and "slow approach" so it gets discussed a lot and the Capstone rivals Codesmith for outcomes.
4. Turing. The only accredited bootcamp that became a school, other than Make School that shut down.
5. Hack Reactor. One of the oldest programs, consistently with pretty good outcomes. Has a lot of alumni over the years hanging around.
It's called Formation, but just to be clear, it's not super relevant for this sub (it's meant for people who have been working as a SWE already for 1+ years and generally more) and I'm here to try to give helpful advice because I have both extensive industry (including 8 years at FB as it grew from 750 employees to like 20K) experience and have worked with hundreds of bootcamp grads later on from all kinds of bootcamps (and helped my partner run her own free in person bootcamp for 2 years), and synthesizing these, I feel gives me a unique point of view to share.
You can look up more about Formation.dev and ask me questions. It's a unique type of approach that not a single other program is doing and we're working on updating our website to try to explain better what it is haha, but definitely ask questions.
/u/InTheDarkDancing you are a by the books and audit-appreciating person who disagrees a ton with me about most things, so what are your thoughts on this?
Am I wrong in asking this "violation" (i.e. inconsistency with CIRR standards) be disclosed by the auditors in the report because it's not for Codesmith to decide what rules they choose to follow and not disclose in the official paperwork, or do you think this rule breaking is so obviously okay that we shouldn't question it?
I'm fine either way as long as it's consistent. Like we all follow the rules and disclose meticulously when we don't and feel justified, or we get aways with fudging the rules when we feel like it and hope that everyone agrees but it should discredit the trustworthiness (just a little bit.... not entirely obviously) of the outcomes.
The voting on these comments suggests people are in a different camp: 'Whatever…
Hiring is picking up for mid level engineers. Disclosure: I'm co-founder of a mentorship platform for SWEs with 1+ YOE under their belt. We have seen 4 or so Meta offers in the past few weeks and many more interviewing. It's definitely not easy but if you have a legit 2+ YOE (like full time SWE job, not projects, not open source, etc...) then you should be getting interviews in a reasonable timeframe in this market. There are many more challenges in passing the interviews and with headcount, but the gears are turning.
That's not at all the case for new comp sci grads and new bootcamp grads (including Codesmith and Launch School and other programs that have these kind of "open source work experience" projects) and the market remains incredibly hard just to get interviews without lying about that experience. The exception being CS grads from top tier CS school - they have a lot of choice…
This makes me sad :(. I think each individual has a different path. You might not be cutout for SWE, but just because Codesmith didn't work, it doesn't mean SWE isn't for you, it's just ONE way to do it.
Feel free to chat with me if you want to talk about your experience and get my 2 cents on other things to try.
I fully agree and support this, just make sure to consider the OSP projects at Codesmith projects and not number 2 or 3.
A number of people have like X to present, it might look like they have a job but that was just their project.
Speaking from experience and trying to help navigate your search.
Yeah that's fine!
I think I haven't reached out because I'm introverted and shy lol. I prefer talking to people async online and make up for shyness with extreme responsiveness. So almost all the leaders I've talked to have been long and slow online conversations first.
I don't know if I would immediately jump on a call, but I would appreciate having a direct and open channel to be like 'hey, someone sent me a screenshot, is this a thing' and where he can be like 'hey I feel that comment is misleading can you adjust it because of Y', and then hopefully being more understanding over time, even if we're not best friends lol.
That's awesome and congrats! I'm really happy for you as a person and you sound like you have a superstar trajectory. My FAANG comment was not meant to be a comparison, just that there is +/- six figure negotiations at that level so I was genuinely curious how he helped navigate that!
I have seen his videos, and notes of his advice and I think it's on point and solid, but it's also inline with the advice that industry career coaches and negotiation coaches give. So it's fantastic that this is included in Codesmith and for life, like [Levels.FYI](https://Levels.FYI) charges like $2500 to help with negotiations per time! But I also think people who he's helped often portray him a flawless person who truly knows everything and has all the answers, and quite honestly, he literally said the above, that he knows "everything about the industry" because he's friends with "the CTO of Disney" (bt…
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy· edited★ FEATURED
100% I literally recommended OP consider Codesmith and was discussing in private 30 mins ago.
The ignore strategy is because I mean this: I've talked to the founders of numerous other programs on here and have professional open conversations with them, and not a single leader at Codesmith has contacted me for 1.8 years now of me being the same old person on here every day.
Instead, the CEO has badmouthed me in internal all hands, the outcomes advisor has texted someone telling them Formation's a scam and he'll give them all he needs. An alumni made very inappropriate comments about me in an alumni Slack that were screenshotted to me. And all this kind of BS in private and the public response isn't "he is dark depraved person whose sole mission in life is to take down the great thing \[we\] have built" (this was quoted to me by a student but I don't know if they quoted it or paraphrased…