Codesmith resident is a student
Codesmith fellow is a student hired back - they expend their graduation dates for CIRR which violates the rules but no one seems to care.
Codesmith mentor used to be a Fellow hired full time - they eliminated this position for cost savings, increasing the work load for instructions
Codesmith instructors are mentors promoted to be the primary teacher for a cohort
Codesmith lead instructors are instructors that get promoted to run a cohort.
I can try to make a diagram, it's like a pyramid shape.
I had the same reaction haha. But in all fairness, your time is not. Even if you're making under $50,000 a year required to get into this program, 6 months of your time is $25,000 and this program's hours are a full-time job and they highly recommend you don't even do a part-time job afterwards because you're going to be so busy.
so you're really giving up a lot to do it when you could keep your job and do a part-time program costing say $8,000 over the course of the next year.
if you make $50,000 in a year and spend $8,000, you're left with $42,000.
if you quit your job and take 6 months off, you're losing $25,000.
so in some ways it's not as trivial as it sounds, but it should definitely be clarified that the specific program is covered by New York City and free
Current Codesmith residents/recent alumni: how has Codesmith delivered on promised improvements announced earlier this year?
Hi all, I've been talking to a couple of residents recently and wanted to get a broader view on how Codesmith is doing towards it's suite of announced improvements from February (five months ago).
At the time I said I would revisit how they did in a few months and time flies, it's already been five months!!
Please comment (or DM me uncomfortable to comment and I'm happy to need your messages confidential) if you have insight into if any of the following have happened:
(From [source](https://www.codesmith.io/blog/community-update-doubling-down-on-remote-learning-timeless-pedagogy-frontier-tech))
1. Are in-person co-working spaces available in NYC and SF?
2. TypeScript integration into the curriculum?
3. Next.js integration into the curriculum?
4. AI copilots…
This is more like when Red Lobster went bankrupt.... the lobster kept on flowing.
Now that said, there might be a lot of changes and if you can leave with little to no cost, it might make sense so you can figure out what's going on and then re-evaluate in the future.
Paid for by NYC, 40 people selected, have to meet very stringent requirements, ex. live in NYC, make under $50K, be from a specific background, have NO TO LITTLE PROGRAMMING EXPERIENCE.
Congrats! So Future Code NYC isn't normal Codesmith. The day to day is similar but the program is meant for people with very minimal programming experience at all, and not the same bar as normal Codesmith. If they told you that then I would be very concerned.
So I would expect to aim for much lower and adjacent-SWE jobs than people in the immersive. I would be very concerned if they tell you you can expect the same outcomes as normal Codesmith because those outcomes are not doing well right now and their strategy isn't working as well in this market and those people generally have more programming experience than you should have.
I would also expect them to have hiring partnerships setup with the city of NY and that will be key in this market.
If they don't have partnerships setup and they are telling you you will get a similar job to the immersive, then I would seriously consider lea…
Hi, the reputation filters use AI so it's not so much people who have no history, but people who perhaps us the same computer to have a number of accounts that are all used to vote etc... It looks like your comment went through.
Congrats! So Future Code NYC isn't normal Codesmith. The day to day is similar but the program is meant for people with very minimal programming experience at all, and not the same bar as normal Codesmith. If they told you that then I would be very concerned.
So I would expect to aim for much lower and adjacent-SWE jobs than people in the immersive. I would be very concerned if they tell you you can expect the same outcomes as normal Codesmith because those outcomes are not doing well right now and their strategy isn't working as well in this market and those people generally have more programming experience than you should have.
I would also expect them to ha…
I wouldn't listen to any online reviews and instead would try to find people who did it who are similar to you and ask them specifically what was good and bad for them. If you can't find people, ask them to connect you. If they don't connect you or you can't find someone, don't go
I don't know Clarusway but what I would look into is who owns them, who the leaders are, who the founders are, and how they make money.
These questions normally paint a picture of where the company is coming from, why they exist and what their goals are.
Where am I pumping out my company exactly? Where are any recent examples I was promoting not in response to someone asking?
You know Reddit wiped out a dozen pro Codesmith suspicious accounts and two moderators of their sub, and a lot of the threads where I talked about it were in response to those accounts attacking me or my company. Hasn't happened in weeks since those accounts were permanently suspended by Reddit.
Dude, Rithm - one of the best bootcamps - shut down. BloomTech paused. Launch Academy paused. Epicodus shut down. Code Up shut down. 2U/EdX went bankrupt. The majority of surviving programs have had layoffs.
It's not me, it's the industry and there's no spinning it positively just because you want bootcamps to work so bad.
"shit ton" doesn't matter if more people aren't getting jobs. It means it's theoretically.pososnle to get.s job out of a bootcamp.
But right now it's an edge case and not a reproducible outcome.
I also have audited Codesmith students later in their careers and at least 10% (rounding down a lot to account for error) that got jobs don't currently have a SWE job anymore (or any job) according to LinkedIn... so there's more to it than just getting that job, there is keeping it. A lot of people who do have jobs have a very jumpy early career moving from job to job, unlike CS grads.
Bootcamp grads don't just have a hard time getting jobs but they have a harder time progressing once the pure grit and hustle wears off and gaps become apparent. Some do extremely well but most don't.
Maybe be a mentor at a program that's working or at a community college or old-school school.
Or get a job at a big tech company where you can teach - either full time (which is rare), or the ability to teach courses or mentor others within the company (a lot more common)
There are no explicit requirements or quotas and the rule in the contract is broader that you have to be actively job hunting and intending to get a new job.
We are so adaptive to each person, having exact quotas doesn't make sense.
We see our role like a coach or personal trainer and we need to have a trusting partnership with ways. Meaning if you are seeing Formation as a transactional way to get a job for the lowest cost you can, it's not the right mindset. You have to trust us and our advice that we are trying to help you achieve your goal, and we have to trust that you are showing up and working with us.
If you aren't ready to interview we don't want you applying to jobs. If you are ready we want you applying to jobs. The advice depends on you and your progress, traction, strengths and weaknesses, feedback etc....
With flat rate unlimited (which is still offered but unlisted on the site right now) there is no timeframe yeah. We have a small number of people with us for quite a long time and still going as a result.
With the performance based unlimited (our main option right now) there is a 15 month cap (which can be extended because of personal circumstances if approved).
This is why we might not accept you if you only have like two companies you're targeting or will only accept an offer at a very small number of companies. We don't know what the market's going to be like in a year and if we did our part and prepared you for all the interviews and your passing all of the mock interviews and doing great and those companies just aren't hiring. there's nothing we can do about it but we did our part.
So maybe I should emphasize that you're primarily paying to confidently get your skills and intervi…
You could leave (at the $500 a week refund policy rate).
You could target new companies and keep going.
So our process has two parts. First, you go through a number of challenges to practice and benchmark until your raw skills are at the top company bar. Second, as you get real interviews, we help you do mocks for the types you have and strategize for the process (e.g. push out interviews if you aren't ready).
The first part is like getting in shape at the gym. The second part is like practicing a race before the final race.
So if you change your targets it's really the second sort you have to keep doing and adjust and not the first.
Typically around 5 companies yeah, but you have to be open minded and.not limited to just them, because we have no control over the market. We can prepare you the best we can for those companies but if you interviewed at them all and didn't get an offer and you give up then you can leave Formation, but you won't get a refund.
If you are targeting just 5 companies I would recommend the 3 months package we currently offer. It's the month to month subscription with a discount if you pay for 3 months upfront for $6000 (as of July 2024). We prepare you the best we can during that time and then you either get an offer and leave or you leave and wrap up your job hunt on your own.
Hi, thanks for the question, We don't support people only looking at one or two companies. we do support you if you have a small number of dream companies, but are open to taking a good offer that you're happy about at a different company as well. You could be the most prepared possible and due to factors beyond your control just not pass and our job is to get you the most prepared possible, but no one can guarantee that you'll pass a specific interview.
Hi Dan, we're seeing some bootcamps close, some pause, some pivot, and some being delusional about the market.
I appreciate you sharing so openly about Launch Academy's position.
These are common complaints I hear too.
I would add "I don't like it when bootcamps let anyone with a pulse in who thinks the bootcamp will get them a 6 figure job"
Your company is not alone, that's the common sentiment.
If the companies were doing better then they can afford to take a more junior, cheaper, high potential candidate, and basically waste their salary ramping them up for a year before they contribute.
In the "year of efficiency" (which is now permanent) there ain't room for that.
Yeah if the ISA was modeled as a loan "Income Share Loan", then it's modeled similarly. Essentially a loan with a variable interest rate and interest rate cap, that can be paused if you don't have income in a given month.
This is the shift that happened after Lambda School got crushed by regulators and the loan providers followed what regulators wanted.
This is my partner's argument - but her views on education + investors/VCs.
1. The nature of VC is that you have to have a path to 10X, 100X growth to justify venture capital as opposed to other forms of loans or funding.
2. You can only get to that scale through code. We commonly see two failure paths. First, bootcamps have used their funding to scale their HUMANs and it's destined to hit a wall. Second, programs that go all in on code are using the code as a means to an end and are not TECH COMPANIES, but 'schools using tech' and the code isn't intrinsically valuable - think programs using Canvas vs programs building their own platform.
So really VC investing in bootcamps hasn't worked. VCs need to invest in TECH COMPANIES.
Next problem. Let's say you are a tech company and raise funding to give this a shot. Tech companies need a deep bench of tech and product talent to product…
This looks pretty accurate to me, might want to factor in that if a bootcamp uses a loan provider they probably see 50 to 90% of that "upfront tuition" in the bank actually upfront, and the rest at graduation or after the loan starts getting repaid.
Small programs can get by if they have almost no marketing cost (word of mouth and leader's organic reach), but if you grew during the boom times and have a staff of directors... easier said than done to remove all of those people and get your hands dirty again. A lot of people would rather close up shop and do something else if they are going to have to start over again anyways. But some do and I'm sure those programs will survive.
The other anti-pattern I'm seeing is programs in trouble are throwing out AI recklessly for marketing and to lure people in, rather than having any idea what to teach. BloomTech is going all in on their AI and f…
If this is a loan partner of the company, yes this is normal to get pre-approved. After you get pre-approved, the company will have to 'certify' that you are enrolled with a valid agreement. And then finally YOU have to officially sign loan documents to activate the loan - which you shouldn't do until you've signed your agreement.
I'm also going to hold off on my comments for now and add later. I have a a view of: bootcamp operations, loan provider operations, job market, economics.
My answer would be a novel or feature length documentary so even if I was going to share now I wouldn't have the time or space to write out with proper sources.
I do stand by my statement that the only programs that can survive this year are:
1. giant corporations with a lot of funding that streamline backoffice and make up for losses in other areas
2. tiny programs that are founder run with like 5 staff and 15 students at a time.
Well I think the Founder of Launch School is fairly open about the strengths and weaknesses haha.
No one who pours their hearts into their work wants to see it criticized by people who don't understand the nuances so I think some of the intensity comes from a deep passion for what you do.
But if what you do is charge $20 to $30K for a 12-16 week program that is supposed to have a more likely than not chance of getting a $100K job at the end, then a healthy ecosystem will have voices on both sides having level headed arguments and hearing out the other side.
You have to battle test anyone making these kinds of claims about their programs and be open to hearing the responses.
I can't speak to the Launch School students but the Founder engages any kind of respectful question and comment on here at least.
It was on the "no news" list, no news isn't necessarily good news haha.
But someone did note that they wiped the future cohort list from the site and I updated that post after hearing that with links to the way back machine before and after.
Yeah It's very intense community, I think because they spend so long in the ecosystem and then they see it working so they believe. Codesmith is a similar kind of community. It's extremely powerful when the results are really good, but then the community will fall apart when the results are not good and ultimately it's what the graduates see in their own cohorts and their previous cohorts and how the company explains that to them and presents themselves.
Launch school's outcomes have gone down a little bit, but the way that the team has explained it has maintained trust with the students.
Codesmith is losing their students right now from the people that I talk to who are either current or recent alumni and people aren't buying the message. They have no visibility into outcomes and are judging based on their cohort and the previous cohort they work with.
Ironically the Codesmith CEO…
NEWS: Code Fellows has ceased operations and shut down. Ending an 11 year legacy.
Source: https://www.codefellows.org/
The message they shared is really bittersweet and you can see the passion and impact they had over the years but they just couldn't make it work as the market has permanently changed.
They tried to adapt and innovate but at some point it's time to look elsewhere to have impact the world because the market is the market.
"Achieving greatness at the scale we’ve reached at Code Fellows requires exceptional people working together tirelessly toward a shared mission, under shared values. It has been a privilege and an honor to be part of this journey and to witness the incredible outcomes of our mission-driven work. From the beginning, our mission at Code Fellows was to provide transformative, career-focused education that opened doors for people from all backgrounds. Our…
Have you looked into the data and have ideas where the holes could be that you can ask Chris to address?
Completion rate = # graduated / # enrolled
So do you think the # graduated could be manipulated and include people who didn't actually graduate?
A question might be, what is the definition of graduated and are there every any exceptions to the definition?
Do you think the # enrolled could be manipulated and exclude people who were actually enrolled?
A question might be what is the definiotn of enrolled and are there any exceptions to that.
At the end of the day the percentages don't mean anything without context. And Launch School presents all the context so you can interpret things as you will. My biggest gripe with CIRR is they chop away at the denominator and their placement rates are not nearly as transparent.
I mean they outline every single person who started and what happened to them.
In 2020 and 2021, one person each year didn't graduate.
Codesmith's graduation rate is like 95% too, doesn't seem that unreasonable, if you have a program that people spent months and months preparing for and preparing their entire day to day life around so that they can make it work.
The only reason people might drop is unexpected chronic illness or unexpected military deployment and maybe there are cases to exclude those from the denominator?
cc u/cglee. Nice thing about the Founder being here is you can just ask haha.
NEWS: 2U (EdX/Trilogy) Files for Bankruptcy - if plan is approved - will survive as a restructured private company
Source: https://www.wsj.com/business/2u-ed-tech-company-files-chapter-11-bankruptcy-24ca1017
Will edit with comments in the future.
It's real but it doesn't mean much and you have to thoroughly understand how Launch School works to make heads or tails.
What it means is that their multi step process with Core actually works at sending the right people to Capstone.
They perhaps are rejecting others that they should allow in and maybe are even too strict at 100%.
But if you are a student this is what you want. You want to be let into Capstone knowing it's right for you and knowing that even in this market it's functioning more often than not.
Yeah having to complete Core first is akin to people doing CSX first for Codesmith, but even higher bar. It helps Launch School Capstone be very sure about the people they let in. Core isn't free, but it's also a lot cheaper than if you went straight into a bootcamp.
Definitely need to understand the whole picture, no shortcuts in the bootcamp world.
NEWS: Launch School Official 2023 Outcomes: 75% placement in 6 months but time to placement almost double peak year at 14 weeks (still blows away competition). Impressive transparency. Described changes in response to market in detail and their impact 👏
DISCLAIMER: these are my personal opinions and feelings, when I state numbers or data, it is based on the source provided or other data that I have internally to inform my comments, by I'm human and not perfect, and welcome any corrections.
Source: https://public.launchschool.com/salaries
Video: https://youtu.be/_v1fccQ7OGM?si=s-Utxc4kdJVHkq7S
Launch School has great transparency so I don't really need to interpret things.... just read the data and see what happened to every person. It's like one of those farms where you can track the carrot you ate from seed to table lol.
Commentary:
1. Placement rate within 6 months is crushing at…
Their stock price is down 99.8% from the peak, and the whole company is worth less market cap-wise than the typical YCombinator 2 person startup is.
I would expect a lot more disruptions until they figure out what to do, or someone acquired them and reorganizes things.
We don't have any discounts right now. We have a number of ways you can pay that can help defer the cost but not outright discounts or scholarships. We occasionally have small (a few hundred dollars off) discounts for people applying via different organizations like Women Who Code and Techaria, but I don't think we have any active right now - possibly for Taro Premium members).
We have a special program we run for companies where they pay for Formation for people, but that's for current college students preparing for internship interviews.
I commented below, but yeah it's not a "bootcamp" so happy to talk more about how it works day to day as well. But the people that have posted in here that I've seen, are people who went to bootcamps in the past and were more junior. I don't know the identifies of all of them, but the ones I can tell from their posts.
If you our blog here: [https://formation.dev/blog/outcomes-report-first-half-of-2024/](https://formation.dev/blog/outcomes-report-first-half-of-2024/), you can see we do have less experienced people (... 0 YOE can include contract work, internships, etc... so it's not necessarily NOTHING, but it's "junior".
Every single Meta placement was Senior or Mid-Level and you can see a ton of them in that post as well, and it's help boost those 3+ YOE numbers.
A senior Meta offer is in the ballpark of $500K first year TC and we have a number of those in there. Based on your Linked…
Hey, I'm the co-founder of Formation and can give the company's stance on this but encourage others to share their views and experiences.
Our base case is FAANG senior and mid level engineers - people with 2 to 10 years of experience.
Some recent placements from the past 6 months we wrote up:
https://formation.dev/blog/success-story-how-drew-bartlett-landed-a-role-at-atlassian/
https://formation.dev/blog/success-story-mike-clarke/
https://formation.dev/blog/fellow-spotlight-sofie-graham-three-offers-from-faang-companies/
Of the new Fellows who introduced recently in order the last five we have:
- 4 years at Microsoft
- 4 years at Atlassian
- senior engineer at consultancy
- returning Fellow from 3 years ago: mid level / senior
- 8 years at Nordstrom
Now that said, there we do work with people more junior and during the boom times we do more often, so you would interact with mo…
correct yeah, I could have been clearer.
And these cohorts run every 6-7 weeks for full time and every 3 months for part time.
I e. total cohorts in a year from 30 or so to 10.
I don't think so yet. There are three players right now:
1. Career Karma - pivoted to be AI customer engagement company in february, so I don't think that their judgment will change much overtime and their content is there more for SEO and to try to collect some income to the company
2. Course Report: their ethics statement hasn't changed so I don't expect the reliability to change. I think it's just similar to CIRR to understand inherent biases. If bootcamps who pay their sponsorships fail, Course Report fails. If no one wants to go to bootcamps, Course Report has no purpose. So their existence relies on bootcamps doing well. They don't make money from prospective students paying membership fees but they DO make money from referring a prospective student to a partner bootcamp and getting a large referral fee. To me, them selling is a sign that none of these revenue streams made sense…
I'm not sure if that's the case, I just spent some time on the weekend digging, and updated my post. They removed all the publicly listed courses from their site. Doesn't mean they paused them, but they removed them all for some reason.