NEWS: Rithm School is shutting down - the doom and gloom is real - and it pains me to say so 😢. An update on bootcamp closures as of July 2024.
An update on recent closures, layoffs, and pauses.
This is not a doom and gloom post but a wake up call to realize that things are not running smoothly right now and to be cautious about dropping $20K on a bootcamp because they told you things are great.
Marketing might be slick, CEO's might promise a rebounding market, but the fact of the matter is that clearly bootcamps are not doing well. Course Report can no longer be trusted - doesn't want to do anything about evidence of reviews being paid for.
Those that are surviving are questioning if it's the thing they want to do with their lives. The Codesmith CEO's dream is to become a [Lego Youtuber](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O8XsX7YCbM) for example. The long item App Academy founder and CEO stepped down. Rithm's incredibly passionate founders closed their doors.
Survival is coming at a cost and I see two buckets:
1. Lean and founder driven. Launch School is a great example of a program that doesn't have VC funding and is largely driven by the passions of the founder. As long as Chris Lee keeps on going, Launch School will keep on going.
2. Giant corporations. Triple Ten is pouring hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) into advertising, affiliate marketing, and referral bonuses and it if they survive it will work, but if they run out of money and the unit economics don't work, they will not make it. Galvanize keeps on chugging.
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[Rithm](https://www.rithmschool.com/apply/): notified via email of closure, no longer accepting applications
[BloomTech](https://www.bloomtech.com/courses/full-stack-web-development): notified via email of pausing, no longer accepting applications (has waitlist for new content)
[Codesmith](https://www.codesmith.io/blog/community-update-doubling-down-on-remote-learning-timeless-pedagogy-frontier-tech): laid off or lost up to 50% of staff, reduced cohorts from 4+1 full cohorts to 1+1 partially full cohorts, decreased number of instructors per cohort to 2. Still operating.
[Epicodus](https://www.epicodus.com/blog/epicodus): shut down
[Launch Academy](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/launch-academy-announces-strategic-pause-immersive-pamjc/): pausing indefinitely
[CodeUp](https://www.codeup.edu/): shut down abruptly
[Ada Developers Academy](https://adadevelopersacademy.org/): paused primary program indefinitely
[Galvanize/Hack Reactor](https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Galvanize-RVW87459495.htm): layoffs reported ongoing basis
[TechElevator](https://www.galvanize.com/blog/galvanize-and-tech-elevator-announce-operational-consolidation/): operations merged with Galvanize and laid off a lot of staff
App Academy: reported layoffs but still operating
[Full Stack Academy](https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Fullstack-Academy-Reviews-E980700.htm): layoffs reported due to consolidation
[Flatiron](https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Flatiron-School-layoff-Reviews-EI_IE964142.0,15_KH16,22.htm): layoffs reported
[General Assembly](https://www.trueup.io/co/general-assembly/layoffs): layoffs reported
[Iron Hack](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/xavier-lopez-reynau_hello-everyone-i-have-been-impacted-by-activity-7052306357990883328-8m8E/?trk=public_profile_like_view): layoffs reported
Le Wagon: closed campuses
[Coding Dojo](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1d18tnn/i_was_an_instructor_at_coding_dojo_for_4_years/): layoffs reported
[Career Foundry](https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Careerfoundry-Reviews-E893190.htm): layoffs reported
[Springboard](https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Springboard-RVW79669934.htm): layoffs reported
NO REPORTED LAYOFFS IN MY RESEARCH:
- Launch School
- Coding Temple
- Code Fellows
- Actualize
- Nashville Software School
- TripleTen: reported moving jobs geographically but no specific contraction reported
- NuCamp: dynamic workforce scales up and down so no news on their size, but no layoffs reported
u/Meg-Div wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
DigitalCrafts: layoffs reported
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Thanks, I'm going to edit to request more info, I'm not all knowing and don't have time to research every single one
u/Meg-Div wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
DigitalCrafts: layoffs reported
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Do you have a source? preferably direct, but otherwise like a mention a review or on socials?
u/jcasimir wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Dang we didn’t make the list! 😆
Turing is still alive and kicking. We have downsized dramatically over the last 18 months but continue to serve our students and alumni.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I wasn't sure to include you because you are accredited I can add you
u/encom-direct wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
What locations closed down for le wagon?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Apparnetly in Africa, but I can't find it in writing from the sources so will remove
u/encom-direct wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Well if it wasn’t in writing then how did you get such information?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Honestly, ChatGPT :( The source it linked to though doesn't appear to be closed.
u/encom-direct wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Their Africa locations seem to be operating:
https://www.lewagon.com/cape-town
u/michaelnovatireplied·
All of the "Stay Tuned" locations appear to be operating but have no upcoming cohorts. I have to dig more but I clarified for now. I don't have time to do it tonight :(
u/Lanky-Fix-853 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Been reading a lot on this sub and lurking to gain info. Thanks for sharing this post. This info dropped on the day where I was moving slow to fill out loan paperwork to potentially start a bootcamp.
As far as career pivots go, I'm still interested in making the pivot to Data A
u/michaelnovatireplied·
It's tough because bootcamps are great for some people, just a smaller number and narrower range of backgrounds than in the past.
You could be that person.
But statistically, you aren't :(
A master's isn't a bad idea while working. I also recommend to take a job that is at a tech focused company in an adjacent role and try to learn on the job and eventually transition there (this is not an easy or guaranteed path, but it's something to consider trying.
My general advice is to not drop everything to do a 12-16 week bootcamp right now and try cheap and slow approaches. I like Launch School's self-paced Core that you can do over months and then do the Capstone IF you make it that far AND you feel confident it's for you because you've been doing Core already for so long.
That way you strike when the iron's hot instead of crossing your fingers and diving off a cliff into the unknown.
But really depends a lot on you, your risk tolerance, your personal situation and non of my advice is universal.
u/sarah_srt8 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Anyone have screenshots or links to Bloomtech’s changes? Will it affect current students? Have they laid off employees this week??
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I don't have any further information. If you are a current student I would ask your Student Success Advisor.
u/encom-direct wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Where does it say stay tuned?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
On the locations page with all of the locations listed.
u/LeddyTasso wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Interesting. I just checked the Nashville Software School and their Java/AWS career track [is paused](https://nashvillesoftwareschool.com/programs/software-engineering) due to lack of post-camp jobs. But good on them for being transparent and not leading anyone down the wrong pat
u/michaelnovatireplied·
thanks, will add
u/frenchydev1 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
"the doom and gloom is real"..."This is not a doom and gloom post" hahahahahahaha
u/michaelnovatireplied·
The doom and gloom is real = the overall bad vibes are not just bad vibes, the facts are clear that bootcamps shorting down left right and center
This is not a doom and gloom post = this is not me talking about my feelings and railing on the industry, it's sourced facts about the industry.
If I wrote an opinion piece then I wouldn't have said that.
u/BeneficialBass7700 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
now there will be even more eyes and scrutiny over the job numbers report next week. not that there is much to be done about it since the reporting period is already over and the numbers are set. if the numbers are good, there will be people who say it's faked and rigged. if the
u/michaelnovatireplied·
People can yell loudly on Reddit and it doesn't make them right.
Numbers are numbers and I plan on evaluating for what they are when they come out. Launch School has been pretty transparent about their cohorts. They are small cohorts and they explain what happened to each person, so there usually isn't much to say, but if they continue to be transparent then I would +1 to that publicly.
u/NerdPiola wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Microverse also "paused" enrollments
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Do you have any documentation? I can edit if you have something
u/NerdPiola wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
[https://www.microverse.org/blog/temporary-enrollment-pause](https://www.microverse.org/blog/temporary-enrollment-pause)
For almost a year now
u/michaelnovatireplied·
thanks! adding
u/Blu3Tomat0 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Given this current state of tech layoffs in the economy, if one still has innate interest in going for a CS degree due to knowing programming is for them, what would you guys recommend?
Still go for a 4 years CS degree, or try a full stack bootcamp course for 4-6 months and app
u/michaelnovatireplied·
You could do a bootcamp still yeah, just make sure to spend a lot of time finding the one that works for you personally, not the one with the loudest CEO or best reviews and expect to spend 1 to 2 years post bootcamp before getting a job.
i.e. treat it as a stepping stone and not one step.
u/knight_of_mintz wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
the cup is half full: the fittest will survive and they will realize powerful new techniques that wouldn't have been necessary in an easy market. once the market recovers the next wave will be stronger than the last wave as these better practices spread
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
This is true but there are some caveats.
1. not a single boot camp has demonstrated the ability to scale. the best boot camps that try to scale have grown by multiplying out their staff and have hit big problems. generally what worked when they were smaller. oftentimes where a founder was personally really involved and carrying a lot of the program, and then that doesn't scale in the program starts doing things like lowering the entrance bar as more people drop out etc.
so if boot camps are consolidated, I don't know if that would necessarily be a good thing. it might be an industry that just needs a lot of small players that each take like 10 to 20 students at a time.
2. I think that there's a possibility that not even the best will survive. Codesmith - one of the previous best bootcamps - when they announce downsizing 4 months ago, they said that they're going to be making changes as you allude you to, they said they were going to have co-working spaces, a ton of in-person events and a number of curriculum changes, and so far all I've done is add a couple of gen AI lectures. I think they're still working on this, but all of those powerful new techniques might not be able to be created if there's no money to invest in creating them.
like even if you're one of the best and you have to lay people off, there's just no resources to do put a lot of trial error into inventing the best new techniques.
u/Wadddl3 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I guess my local bootcamp is doing well then because they’re hiring more instructors
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Well they could be laying off more expensive ones and hiring more junior/cheaper ones :(
u/strummer86 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Ummm, you forgot the prestigious edX bootcamps :) Lots of solid coders have come from edX, take me for example. I'm a year out and still have no SWE job, AMA
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Yeah I left them all out intentionally haha. 2U is currently worth less than $12M (market cap) down from $3.5B so I don't want to kick them when they are down.
u/Nsevedge wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
This is a quick response from myself as CEO of Devslopes (while I’m waiting for a flight to takeoff. Please, give me some leeway for the grammatical errors. I can post more in depth later.
For context, at Devslopes we’re moving at a great speed and adding in more and more resour
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I agree with all of this about the industry and appreciate your transparency here! Thanks for sharing.
Number 2 is the biggest problem with the whole bootcamp industry. Codesmith's a good example of becoming desperate because their entire reputation is about six figure outcomes. They loudly published 53 offers accepted in April-May 2024 and even added that stat to their official curriculum docs... That number is already far under pace from their recent CIRR outcomes but June-July 2024 is looking to be half that! If they don't give us an updated June July numbers, and leave up that cherry picked sample set - which is already worse than previous numbers, it's graping at straws and extremely misleading that will push away students who know better.
TLDR: if you bet the house on outcomes and the market is against you, you give up control over your destiny.
Number 3 is a hard one for programs that scaled too much. I've seen this like too many back-office people and too high of a CAC. But another problem is if the founder steps back from day to day and early employees fill out executive and managerial ranks. You get kind of stuck because as you scale back, it's hard to let go of those people or ask them to take a pay cut, and you need them to return to more on the ground roles as their teams under them are scaled back and they have the most context and loyalty to help the company. But without lowering their salaries to down scale, you end up where you were 4 years ago with a 2X payroll and still can't make it.
TLDR: I think founder led programs where the founder/CEO takes on a lot of work (and contractors do teaching and TAing) and takes a personal salary hit if needed, have an advantage in this market.
u/-Paraprax- wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
> You could do a bootcamp still yeah, just make sure to spend a lot of time finding the one that works for you personally, not the one with the loudest CEO or best reviews and expect to spend 1 to 2 years post bootcamp before getting a job.
I honestly don't think this is good ad
u/michaelnovatireplied·
All of that is true but I think it can work for a small number of edge case people. Like Launch School has pretty good outcomes from what they have reported so far, but to get into Capstone you need to spend months to a year on Core to make sure you are a good candidate who is likely to succeed. And even then it's not 100%, even if it's more likely than not that you'll get a job.
And people's jobs are increasingly engineering adjacent to get a foot in the door.
I personally recommend caution as well but a complete blanket advice to not go would prevent that 1 in 50 person from going who it would actually work for.
u/OrdinaryRedFox wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Hey there, previous codefellows student. They downsized they closed their nights and weekends, and their self paced program. It’s only in person online now.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
do you have a source I can link to, even loosely? even if it's a social comment but not anonymous haha.
u/OrdinaryRedFox wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Yeah I let me see if I kept the email. Also you can just look at their website and see they aren’t offering those classes any longer.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Thanks, I'll see if I can tell from the way back machine and link to that
u/OrdinaryRedFox wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Yeah I let me see if I kept the email. Also you can just look at their website and see they aren’t offering those classes any longer.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
The best I could do is see that a few months ago thye had MANY courses listed upcoming and now they have NONE :(
u/thinkPhilosophy wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Glad to see my alma matter CodeFellows hanging in there! Anyone know anything about Thinkful?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I'm not sure if that's the case, I just spent some time on the weekend digging, and updated my post. They removed all the publicly listed courses from their site. Doesn't mean they paused them, but they removed them all for some reason.
u/CicadaSilent8883 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Code Fellows has ceased operations as of two days ago - [https://www.codefellows.org/https://www.linkedin.com/news/story/online-eds-2u-files-for-chapter-11-6116068/](https://www.codefellows.org/https://www.linkedin.com/news/story/online-eds-2u-files-for-chapter-11-6116068/)
2U
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Thanks for sharing Code Fellows, will make top level post for full closures like I did Rithm and 2U