Hi, This sub stil has a lot of activity and has grown 5X over the past couple years in membership. BUT the tone is a lot more negative.
First: why no success stories?
The top bootcamps have had lower placements rates for 2023 grads. The odds of getting a job are lower, and the odds of getting a SWE job, rather than a SWE-adjacent job, have gone down as well.
So if you are one of the lucky ones, it's likely you had an arduous journey and it's likely may of your cohort that you found just as talented as you are seriously struggling to get a job, and you aren't going to Reddit to brag about your job.
To make it worse, I've been seeing more layoffs of bootcamp grads down the road, compared to CS grads. So just getting a great job out of a bootcamp isn't the end, but the base of a taller mountain.
... and those a few years out and in good shape, graduated in the boom times and it's hard to related for 2023-2024 grads.
Second: bootcamps shrinking.
We've seen layoffs, shutdown, and pauses. Codesmith laid off 1/3 to 1/2 the staff and reduced number of cohorts from 4+1 to 1+1 and still can't fill cohorts. Rithm had a couple layoffs. Launch Academy paused entirelly. Tech Elevator laid off a bunch of staff after merging with Hack Reactor and Hack Reactor laid off a bunch of staff when shrinking offerings. Turing had layoffs. Epicodus shutdown. 2U/Trilogy's market cap is almost $0 now. App Academy's long time founder and CEO stepped down. BloomTech cutoff some of it's programs and almost all the execs have left.
Conclusion: clearly it's a brutal time for bootcamps AND for bootcamp grads, Far fewer people are going. Far fewer people are getting jobs.
We can't pretend this isn't reality. Those who do will fail.
But if step 1 is acknowledging reality, step 2 is dealing with it.
The world needs more engineers, it just doesn't need more bootcamp grads.
u/traintocode wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
> So just getting a great job out of a bootcamp isn't the end, but the base of a taller mountain.
This has always been the case for everybody entering software engineering. If you treat getting your first SWE job as the end of a process you are set up to fail, it doesn't matter
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I completely agree, I just see bootcamp grads have a harder time than CS grads (specifically through my lends at better tech companies). It's always expected new grads need time (at a loss to the company) to grow into engineers with more impact. At Meta I saw how bootcamp grads took longer - so long that they stopped supporting bootcamps they had experimented with hiring from.
u/kabuk1 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
So true!
In the UK, Makers is a big one and it seems they’ve pivoted massively. They still run their regular bootcamps, but much more is now going into their apprenticeship programme. You still do the bootcamp with them, but the courses are funded by the Uk gov and you get comp
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Apprenticeships are an amazing idea.
In the United States we to expand the tax credits under the federal apprenticeship program and this would be incredible.
Imagine Google getting more tax credits than it costs to run apprenticeships so that people can go to a free (or you get paid) Google Apprenticeship.
No guaranteed job at all, but the training would be a lot better and you have Goolge on your resume, and then bootcamps could be like interview prep only services to help those apprentices place at other companies (Google can't hire them all but would never help these people place at other companies because it's a conflict of interest)
I can expand on this but if I had political clout with the two Presidential campaigns I would push on this.
Note that Google actually does have a formal government approved apprenticeship under expanded Obama/Biden rules. But it's not enough to solve this problem for SWE specifically.
u/Cameron8325 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I just graduated from CareerFoundry's Full Stack Web Development course along with their Python course back on June 1st. I'm still applying for jobs to no avail. I'm currently working on building a website for a small business to add to my portfolio, trying to network daily, prac
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Congrats. The negative sentiment (which I've been accused of "causing") is directed towards the bootcamps and not the individual. Each person has a unique story, network, and raw aptitude and the trends don't apply to them. You have no idea what your journey will be but if you are rationally considering if s bootcamp is for you right now, the outcomes are he aily staclrd ahaonst you and it's not something you should choose because of pure optimism.
Once you're in, you're in. Maybe in retrospect you wouldn't have done it given the current sentiment, but you still did it and might as well give it your best shot your way.
u/Manoko wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
If you don't mind sharing, which bootcamp did you apply to, what course did you take and which role did you land after graduating ?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
One or two placements are unique edge cases, and not a reason to go or not to go. Even the "best" bootcamp has a 1 year placement rate for H12023 grads unofficially estimated by me at a coin flip (50/50, and possibly less) so I'd you are considering a bootcamp if: 1.should not expect a job and anyone making it seem guaranteed in a certain timeframe is misleading you, 2. you have advantages in your background (SWE adjacent work, STEM degree, etc....)
u/Ok-Green-8960 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Could it just be the market? Will they become valuable again? Or is the curriculum just not job worthy?
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
All of the above haha:
1. It's not just the market but if the market was still amazing for entry level, bootcamps would benefit too and sentiment wouldn't be so negative.
2. They won't become valuable again in their current form anytime soon. If the market improves they may return to some of their previous reputations. But there is far too large of a over supply of bootcamp grads and new grads to be corrected over night even if the market warns. Bootcamps have scaled back A LOT, so they will produce fewer bootcamp grads. As the over supply either get jobs or go leave the industry, then we might see it be a viable pathway for a small number of people in the future.
3. I have yet to see a curriculum that is worth the cost. I haven't seen a bootcamp curriculum that isn't better than a Udemy course. What you DO GET, is HUMANS to help you - keeping you accountable and helping explain and answer questions. If that's worth $20K or not is up to you.
The bootcamp pivot:
1. We're seeing some pivot to AI: BloomTech (Lambda School) is going heavily towards AI. Codesmith added 5 generative AI lectures to it's curriculum.
2. Unfortunately it's also too early for these efforts. Companies don't have hiring processes and requirements and vetting processes for AI-related jobs yet at scale so these jobs are not going to be the saving grace of bootcamp grads.
My Predictions: people will go to bootcamps to learn some programming so they can be better at their CURRENT JOBS. For example, an accountant going to a coding bootcamp will be a better accountant - able to use AI and spreadsheets more effectively. A program manager might be able to automate and process feedback better.
u/biblio_wander wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
In my situation, my bootcamp program will be paid for, and I will not have to spend a penny out of my pocket. So, is it still worth it for someone in my position?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Your time is valuable. If you could do something else with that time that would result in more impact or a better outcome, then even if you were paid to do it you might want to reconsider.
u/StockDC2 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Source?
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
If people were getting jobs then bootcamps wouldn't be shutting down/laying people off
1. [Launch Academy ](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/launch-academy-announces-strategic-pause-immersive-pamjc/)(indefinite pause)
2. [Epicodus](https://www.epicodus.com/blog/epicodus) (shutdown)
3. [CodeUp](https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2024/01/09/codeup-shuts-down-suddenly-leaving-students-staff-frustrated/) (shutdown)
4. App Academy ([layoffs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmIBwP6tBh4), [ceo step down](https://www.appacademy.io/blog/mari-nazary-joins-app-academ))
5. Codesmith ([shrinking](https://www.codesmith.io/blog/community-update-doubling-down-on-remote-learning-timeless-pedagogy-frontier-tech) - left out was 1/3 layoffs and reducing from 4+1 cohorts to 1+1 cohorts since 2023)
6. Tech Elevator ([merge](https://www.galvanize.com/blog/galvanize-and-tech-elevator-announce-operational-consolidation/) and layoffs)
7. Fullstack Academy ([sold to SimpliLearn](https://www.highereddive.com/news/zovio-sells-fullstack-academy-simplilearn-cash-deal-dissolving-boot-camp/637434/))
8. [BloomTech](https://www.classcentral.com/report/bloomtech-layoffs-2023/) (layoffs)
u/Useful-Land-7848 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Hi michaelnovati,
If you can please list the Apprenticeships that are are available and are not listed here so I can apply:
* [Google Apprenticeships](https://buildyourfuture.withgoogle.com/apprenticeships)
* [Microsoft Leap](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/leap/)
* [Multivers
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Those are all good. There are two types of apprenticeships:
1. Expect no experience with program, teach you basics, don't expect full time job at the company (e.g. Google Apprenticeships and Multiverse)
2. Expect you to have a lot of programming experience and possibly some past experience. These are like long internships expected to convert, e.g. Asana Up, Dropbox Ignite, Pinterest, Intuit
If you don't have programming experience #1 is what you want and not #2 is way too competitive (like < 0.1% chance of being chosen)
u/biblio_wander wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
What would you do if you were in my shoes? I want to be a SWE.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Maybe DM me with more specifics about your background and which program this is and what your expectations are after.
u/cluelessbeyond wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Don't forget Turing, layoffs + closed down multiple programs since late last year.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Yeah I have referenced the layoffs before, but do you have some kind of primary link for that? I couldn't find one but I searched off my personal notes database (which is large haha) and googled for best sources, and didn't have a primary one for that
u/cluelessbeyond wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
They kept it on Slack, but it reached Reddit. If you're referring to the program closures, there's the second link + they recently closed FE & BE for one single remaining track
[https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/17j872f/turing\_lets\_14\_staff\_members\_go\_withou
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Yeah just wanted a primary source, like a blog, or recognized publication article, but I'll edit and put as source pending
u/yesdog96 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
So, I've been considering going back to school for coding/IT. Would the best route be getting a bachelors instead of a boot camp?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
My first rule of thumb is to try to transition back at your current job. So for example, if you're like a customer support person, then trying to become a support engineer at your current job is good. if you're an accountant trying to become a data analyst at your current job, the step in the right direction. It's always great to transition in an environment where you already understand so much context. it makes it easier.
u/duchessviolet wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Hi Michael! I don’t see much discussion these days here about the Hack reactor 12 week immersive! Could you please share your views on their current curriculum, if it’s worth it and if their standards of teaching have gone downhill? Any advice appreciated, thanks in advance!
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Hi! Yeah I'm surprised there isn't as much commentary around Hack Reactor given that it's historically one of the top bootcamps. All of this is my personal opinion, but I would put them in a bucket with App Academy right now.
Sorry this is a bit rambly, I don't really have strong opinions now. My views come from what people tell me, and I don't proactively seek out that much (unless following up on something someone tells me), and I talk a LOT of specific programs that people talk to me about. No one talks to me about HR!
Both are historically "top bootcamps", that have scaled pretty well and helped a lot of people. But both have evolved from there as well. App Academy recently had their founder step down and a more corporate business-y person came in to manage it. Hack Reactor sold to Galvanize in 2018. Since then, they have stopped offering in person, merged with Galvanize's back offer, absorbed Tech Elevator and merged it with their back office as well. Galvanize itself was acquired by a large public ed-tech company in 2020. So Hack Reactor of the old days doesn't exist anymore.
During the boom times, they built out this longer, 19 week, program for "beginners" that kind of imploded during the market crash that followed and they laid off a lot of the team. Since then consolidating Tech Elevator resulting in more people leaving. I got yelled at on here for daring to talk about that, and a week later the Tech Elevator CEO left.
Anyways, I can't comment it it anymore because all the people I know who did it, did it before all of this and I would have recommended it before. It's weakness was the entrance bar was a bit lower so more people dropped out, but generally people that finished did comparable to other good bootcamps.
u/duchessviolet wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Thank you so much for the detailed response, much appreciated! Just one more follow up question though, what bucket would you put App Academy in right now? Could you share your views about their current trajectory?
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
So the way I see it, again this is my personal opinon and I don't have any formal relationships with any bootcamps, is that the smaller, founder-led programs: Rithm, Launch School, Codesmith, some others, tend to be smaller, higher bar to get in, more expensive, and a lot of positive qualities. App Academy and Hack Reactor fall in the more "big business" bucket of companies that are run like real companies. With that comes some amount of accountability in that they have legit lawyers to review stuff, career professionals doing finance, HR, etc... With that though you lose some of the personal touch of the founders.
I'm currently not recommending Codesmith because they appear to me to be imploding. Bunch of pro-Codesmith accounts, including two moderators of their sub, got suspended from Reddit, a couple more staff left, they are going all in on "the modern engineer" and losing focus. I think they are living in a fantasy land in their heads that's a little too abstract for what's needed right now - on the ground excellence and industry experience to help you navigate.
All of this aside, the common thread to success is YOU THE STUDENT. The tough market has shown us that a bootcamp can only do so much and that the strong outcomes in the good market were more a testament to you and the high bar of acceptance, and not the bootcamp itself. That's not to say bootcamps do nothing, it's just that they contribute a PIECE OF THE PIE AND NOT THE WHOLE PIE.
Another reason I'm not recommending Codesmith right now is they are not acknowledging this, and making up a story about the "modern engineer" to justify their tanking outcomes, instead of listening to their employees and getting feedback and actioning it.
Of all the bootcamp founders speaking publicly I think Chris at Launch School and Elie at Rithm have been the most transparent about the market and what they can and can't do.
u/metalreflectslime wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
> reducing from 4+1 cohorts to 1+1 cohorts since 2023
What do "4+1" and "1+1" mean?
Do you mean 4 full-time cohorts and 1 part-time cohort?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
correct yeah, I could have been clearer.
And these cohorts run every 6-7 weeks for full time and every 3 months for part time.
I e. total cohorts in a year from 30 or so to 10.