My suspicion was that it was a fake account. Codesmith has (or their 3rd party marketer) has had a bunch of fake posting activity here.
You all have to watch out for fake content on Reddit, some of it is very well hidden.
That person who appears like a student doing CSX and posting about it keeps sharing links to Codesmith with UTM tracking params in the URLs (which Reddit doesn't add and were added manually) indicating all of those posts are basically ads.
I'm not on the selection team but just from what I do know I don't think emailing will necessarily help, just because it's a fixed time window and until you've heard back then you're still in the running and we're only committing to make the decisions by the end of the window I believe is April 6th (check the website).
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate you being realistic about the market.
RE: 3RD PARTY PLATFORM
Personally, I'm not a fan of bootcamps marketing features that they outsource to 3rd party services anyone can use. You are indirectly paying for that choice.
Second, in this market you need people looking for different angles that other people don't have and using 3rd party solutions is using something a bunch of people have access to - like you said - jobs getting 100 applications in 20 mins.
RE: MONEY BACK GUARANTEE
If something is too good to be true it probably is. The motivations of the guarantee make sense, but it doesn't work if they refund most people and paid all this money on Prentus and staff members in the mean time, company goes bankrupt.
We're seeing that happen a lot of places!
But the ideal in this market is meeting in the middle - you have some lower…
I'm not sure on the ratios but overall a low single digit percentage of people will be selected. I would guess approximately 2X the number of people selected will be interviewed so the bar for being interviewed is also quite high given the huge number of applications.
Commenter above is likely a fake paid account. Note the UTM params in all their CSX links (a dozen or so across Reddit) and no UTM params in their other links. These are advertisement tracking params that are not automatically added by Reddit ever and had to have been explicitly added.
I've seen a number of bootcamp success stories over the past year (speaking personally, not professionally) across a range of bootcamps and I'm super inspired by the individual stories and journeys. Like almost tear jerker level of impressive grit and determination.
This weekend I felt really sad after hearing a story because the larger problem is these things just aren't reproducible.
Each person has their own story and the mechanics of how it happened are unique to that person.
The common traits are grit and curiosity that stand out as the top 20%.
Meaning if you went to a bootcamp, and there were 20 people in your cohort, you have to have more grit than 16 other people, so if they are working late, you have to work later, etc... If they are digging into "why" something is the way it is, you have to dig further.
If you consistently do that for 6 months post bootcamp you have a b…
>Our team is very focused on the bigger picture, being a rigorous and accessible pathway for a new gen of technologists able to help meet this moment (arguably the 4th industrial revolution)
Your team should spend more time on the ground with students and less time with the bigger picture. If you want to only work on the bigger picture, go into academia or politics.
Otherwise don't take peoples' $22.5K and use that money to fund your "bigger picture" explorations and ideas, or to fund the creation of new AI/ML programs.
VC, loans, and outside funding is meant for investing the future. Your students are paying to get jobs, not paying for developing future programs and so the team can go to conferences like Davos and write books.
I haven't made a penny of salary or compensation from my company in 5.5 years since day 1, and we have never had a profit, because every penny given to us is…
Which bootcamp is that? None of the mods have bootcamps. I recommend Launch School sometimes with caveats but you might be mistaken as it's not my bootcamp. I used to highly recommend Codesmith too and now I highly recommend not going under any circumstance, and it's not my bootcamp.
You can DM me and I can ping the team to make sure it wasn't missed, but I think they are still reviewing candidates and will continue to even after interviews begin.
This is a good point for short term intense bootcamps or fixed curriculum bootcamps.
Self paced program non-cohorted programs (e.g. TripleTen and Springboard) tend to have very low completion rates Sprinboard's CA report showed something like only 23% of people finishing within 1.5X the expected time.
I don't think this is 100% due to the self-paced nature but also due to the fact that people who have busy lives might self-select into these programs and end up too busy to finish the or change their goals.
I work at an interview prep platform and we see maybe 15% (educated guess) of people who stick around for a long time end up leaving before getting a new job for a wide range of reasons, but even people who are actively job hunting, they have periods of ups and downs and it's kind of the nature of this style of option.
Anyways this got long, I don't have time to write shorter, clea…
The applications for this year closed already, but we also don't accept direct referrals for the Netflix program - you would just ask someone to apply online.
No one and nothing is perfect and colleges are like $200K over four years and have lots of problems too.
But CIRR is a marketing organization promoting the bootcamp industry and it's not about transparency and this kind of manipulation just really bothers me because it gives the industry a bad name and people assume the worst when they shouldn't sometimes.
Yeah at Formation we support people until they get a job and it's very understandable that some people will change their mind and not job hunt, or change paths.
On a human level, at Formation, if you do 100 mentor sessions, a hundred practice tasks, and you change your mind about job hunting, it's not fair to get your money back or not pay anything. We'll keep supporting you and you are choosing to leave.
Ultimately the contract you sign governs the relationship though and if you owe the money you'll owe the money, so if you don't want to compromise and approach the situation reasonably then you shouldn't expect to not pay anything. You are working with businesses and you are asking all your peers to pay for you if you do that.
For example, if a program offers you a contractual promise that they don't fulfill and the contract says you don't owe anything then you shouldn't pay anything…
what percentage of people do you think? drop out because they are advertising a something percent placement rate within 6 months and the fine print says that about 70% of people graduate.
do you feel like of the people you started with, than more than 70% are still there?
I'm not on the selection team, but I also can't give away anything that wouldn't be fair that hasn't been shared broadly. So the one thing I'll emphasize is to research Netflix in their culture memo and explain with examples why you think you would have a lot of impact there based on that memo.
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
CIRR is dead and deserves scrutiny because Codesmith's marketing of it has mislead hundreds of people to pay them $21,500 in 2024, it is indeed worthy of scrutiny.
When Codesmith had like 12ish cohorts in 2024 and 2-3 of them say that they only know about 1 person placed in 6 months, that's not a fact by any means but it raises flags and warrants questions.
Codesmith's response has been to entirely evade the question.
They clearly have 2024 data of some kind that they are publishing, but they aren't publishing H1 2024 placement rates - which they obviously have preliminary versions of or they can't publish the offer data they have.
Even if they don't have or want to publish placements rates they can say "warning, placement rates are down, we want to double down on finding and supporting the RIGHT people for Codesmith so if you want to become a SWE, work with us and we'll be honest wi…
1. first try free and cheap online resources and courses until you feel like a couple of things are clicking
2. look at Launch School - it's the "slow way" to becoming a SWE, but it works well if you are a good fit. The reason it works is because it's small and only takes people who are very likely for it to work for
3. consider bootcamps ONLY TO LEARN not to get a job. you might get a job, but you should look into them as a way of learning skills you don't have in an intense way and if that approach will work for you. Codesmith is like $22.5 for 14 weeks so that's like $1500 a week and for some people it's worth that much "just to learn", for many it's not - and the curriculum itself is like not the same as the public content they do - it's more like 2 hour long slide show lectures on a topic + projects.
4. consider an online masters like Georgia Tech OMSCS - this is ideal if you hav…
Sorry this is confusing, I'm intentionally not giving specific timeframes or specific details on events because it will reveal who is involved and Codesmith has at least two times tracked people down from Reddit with specific examples shared to me of that.
All of that is correct no?
1. Codesmith is arranging letters of reference from OSLabs (there is a specific person mentioned in arranging I'm not disclosing their name)
2. The example presented to me evidence yesterday was not about a reference that took place yesterday
3. I'm not giving details of what this example was because even the type of reference, time, location, people involved I think could DOX who it is.
4. As far as I'm aware OSLabs is still providing reference checks and as far as I'm aware, the person signing them is still Phil. Someone sent me a letter from a few years ago signed by Phil and this is not about that si…
Can you clarify what you are asking? I don't want to mistake it and I'm not 100% sure. I wasn't informed of a specific person signing letters today in a specific situation on a specific letter, rather that Codesmith as a whole supports and instructs graduates on and how to prepare for OS Labs background checks when you are asked to verify "work experience" there.
I think people are interested in scams, my Netflix and HBO are full of scams and this is far more interesting than those scams because it's so polarizing - some people think this is fine and others think it's completely fraud.
When 80% of people get jobs it certainly helps, when like 20% of people get jobs and they see this stuff it has a real financial impact on them.
Codesmith took in about $80M over 10 years if they actually had 4000 paying students, so that's up there with some of the biggest ed-tech headlines I've seen.
Anyways, my understanding is Phil is still an advisor at Codesmith despite having a new full time day job.
The person who signed letters is Phil Troutman who was Codesmith's Head Instructor for 10 years and left recently.
Codesmith's placement staff "help coordinate" letters for you if you have trouble.
And OSLabs phone number is intended to go to Phil.
The instructions presented to me offer support for "work verification", "background checks", and more and indicate that Phil is the primary person who does background check calls.
**The board members on the site, look into them:** one is Codesmith's lawyer, two I beleive are Codesmith alumni who don't advertise it much but show up on alumni lists.
The "director" is not affiliated with Codesmith but I'm not sure if she works there, last I chatted with her she was "on leave" and she reported some security problems I had to Annie - Codesmith's Director of Outcomes and Admissions who is present here on Reddit.
Finally, OSLabs tax records sho…
It's a rolling window, so the team is reviewing all the applications and if they choose to move forward with someone they will offer an interview right away, which they continue to review more applications.
I would expect the first pass to be complete this week or next week with initial wave of interviews offered and as we see how many people pass interviews and meet the qualifications (graduation dates, etc...)
Hi, we are processing applications and doing interviews on a rolling basis throughout March.
I'm not on the selection team but the entire application is important, from your resume experience to your loom video.
Having a higher score is better but it's not necessary if you have a very strong video. And having a higher score alone isn't sufficient.
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
I was informed today that Codesmith is still signing letters of reference and background checks on behalf of OS Labs to confirm fake work experience.
I care less that people are lying on their resumes and care more the Codesmith has been participating in these lies for years and years.
Codesmith alumni, spread the word - 3 weeks of commits on a project isn't 7 months of unpaid work experience at OS Labs. Tell Codesmith this is unethical and let them know loud and clear.
People are sending me evidence of this stuff because maybe they are afraid to lose their jobs for being found out and it's sad.
If you feel guilty about this and don't want to be public - my DMs are open. I won't stand for this garbage behavior from people with no integrity.
It's exactly spot on, one school with an interest in CIRR appearing to be alive is propping it up so it appears alive on the outside but it's completely dead inside.
Formation isn't a school and doesn't teach any concepts like that. We are a place to practice problems, get feedback, benchmark, enhance your job hunt and do mock interviews.
We believe there are tens of thousands of hours of excellent materials out there and we try to help you navigate that.
All of our efforts are out towards our product and you can see form our launches blog how much effort that is.
Codesmith doesn't have dynamic scheduling of 500 sessions a week, source thousands of job posts a week and provide personal recommends and network outreach, provide a job tracker tool that helps you prepare for upcoming interviews through personalized practice and interviews automatically, collect and read about a dozen feedback points per person every week, provide a personal algorithmic feed of things to work on, provide a custom built on platform collaborative coding environment suppo…
CIRR is dead - missing audited 2022 reports were due last December and they have gone radio silence on where they are 3 months later
I've been very critical of CIRR before and the problems with it's specification with very fair critical analysis.
This post is not that, this post is about me trying to stand up for people being manipulated by a shell company that appears to primarily represents one bootcamp - Codesmith - to create an illusion of validation in outcomes.
**One of the misunderstood aspects of CIRR is that initial results are NOT AUDITED. The results are for 20222 were submitted in March 2024 and the official audited results were due in December 2024.**
The last sign of life of CIRR I saw was in January, when a Codesmith advisor who is on CIRR's board changed the specification to make it looser on who they can exclude from statistics.
Yet no audited results were posted.…
This looks like an automated email (given the person doesn't work there anymore) but the strikes are probably real. Will they go after you if you don't pay? No idea, but you signed up for it and if you aren't happy with the changes (which I wouldn't be personally) then I would explicitly tell them instead of ghosting and hoping the problem goes away.
I have dozens of screenshots and PDFs,.HTMl logs etc...but I don't have time to bundle it up, and I would also prefer discussing it with their team privately first so they can respond.
If they apologized and assured me it would never happen again I might just drop it.
The person's Reddit account was permanently suspended along with dozens of other accounts and a number of official Codesmith accounts as well. When all of the accounts were suspended I also noticed a bunch of accounts that have been harassing me for a year now for suspended too and since then I have had relatively little harassment on here.
I would love to publish a case study some time because the behavior is insane and hard to tell at first!
But revelaing this might also help the bad guys get away with it by understanding the sophistacted techniques I used :(
The fake accounts would warm up by posting and commenting…
The interviews will be rolling over the next few weeks so I would wait until the interview deadline on the website.
The team just started looking over applications today.
Thanks for considering, I am very upset about Codesmith's behavioral and I'm sorry if I come across confrontational, I think we should all speak openly about Codesmith's outcomes and stories because even amongst the group of alumni I'm calling out above - those people on an individual basis are all really awesome people - working incredibly hard to have more impact and a better life (many with families), and don't want to come across as judging those people entirely. I'm judging Codesmith for selling those stories as a magic pill to change your life, instead of being transparent about how it all works.
What's your email address, I'll send you the chain of proof evidence of someone named "Will S." hiring someone on Upwork to post a disparaging comment about me on Reddit.
I 100% assure you that no one got an SDEIII senior role at Amazon out of Codesmith with zero work experience.
SDEI - L4 is entry level there, SDEII - L5 is mid level. I know 2-3 people from Codesmith that got L5 jobs (and I think at least 2 are still there) and those are extreme edge cases out of 4000 people.
These aren't case you put on the website as a core feature of Codesmith.
The fact you call their Leadership Principles questions "bullshit questions" shows me how messed up and broken Codesmith is... taking ambitious people and making them feel like the job market is a "game" to get a high score on.
They don't set people up for good careers and with good long term mindsets. It's all a game where the ends justify the means.
You completely dodged my rambling about how people lie on their resumes to get jobs and it's a fact from my research. It's the elephant in the room. Amazing…
Those placements were accidents and people exaggerating on their resumes.
There isn't a single person with zero relevant experience who had an honest resume who got a senior role.
Did people get "senior" titled roles at Capital One (which map to entry level FAANG) by lying about their SWE experience and getting referred by other Codesmith grads and get coached on questions in a special Capital One channel? Yes.
Did people leverage past experience that maybe wasn't SWE work but had a lot of similar behavioral skills and call it "engineering" experience on their resume to squeeze into mid level roles? Yes.
Did most people put their 3 week long project as 8+ months of work experience? Yes.
Did people who were hourly TAs at Codesmith put down months of work experience as a Software Engineer at "CS Engineering" that Codesmith provided background checks for? Yes.
People who got these job…
It's been 7 months now and based on the people that have pinged me on and from this thread (not sure if it's circulating with a cohort) the placements haven't changed much and these cohorts were described as a ghost town and worse than ever placement rates - some saying they don't know anyone placed in their cohort.
**You knew at the time of posting that 2023 cohorts had been doing half as good as 2022 cohorts (40% 6 month placement rate) and you knew how the earliest 2024 cohorts were doing and terrible things were.**
I saw an ad last week saying that 2024 was great for outcomes and "you could be next".
Historically they never did that though as far as I know so I would t assume but this is awfully suspicious given then anecdotal evidence and the massive increase is ghost placements demands at least a clarification. like if it was legit I don't see why they wouldn't say Michael. this is absurd how we do even suggest this, we obviously are not committing fraud like that, and they haven't acknowledged it.
No placements here either: [https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1ewbapi/comment/mgwdgic/](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1ewbapi/comment/mgwdgic/)
There was a bit of an issue because their CA 2023 report originally had 20% placements for 2023 grads which they updated to 42% by adding in like 40 to 60 people who didn't report salaries and were verified by LinkedIn.
I asked them about it and they didn't respond (while they responded to other questions, so it wasn't due to lack of receipt).
Apparently a contractor/advisor did the report so I asked them if it's possible all of those LinkedIn verifications were ACTUALLY OSP PROJECTS PORTRAYED AS WORK and not actual jobs, and they didn't reply to that either.
I started doing some analysis but I'm way too busy because I'm working on so many crazy AI features that are so exciting and cool I just doing have like an hour to do the actual number crunching, but I really want to know what's going on.
It's impossible the leadership doesn't know about these problems no? Like how could they mi…
That's awesome, I think more people should do more affordable boot camps purely to learn and is one step of many on their journey and I think it's a good thing that you didn't do it to get a job and you did it just to learn some stuff and then you learned some stuff.
It's really interesting there because they offer a job guarantee and giant letters across their website, so I would assume that the vast majority of people go there, expecting a job or expecting to pay nothing.
in your case, it sounds like you went in. expecting not to get your money back but thinking that what you would get would be reasonable for the cost and you think it was.
How far along are you? I'm a mod here and we have a problem with people 1 to 3 months in coming to Reddit, offering referral codes and then disappearing.... no one ever comes here when they finish talking about how things went.
Do you know how many people are finishing and getting jobs? The headliner person on their website went here years ago and with AI and stuff there's no way that things are remotely similar to what they were 3 years ago.... if they are, that's a big flag too.
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
33 is a pretty big cohort too for 2024. If this is true, I really wish people would do their fricken research and stop believing their bullshit marketing and leader.
I used to have way more pros and cons about Codesmith and things have degraded to much over 2024 starting when they laid off everyone and promised amazing changes that never happened.
You can follow my history. I'm pissed off now but back then I very rationally paused my endorsement of Codesmith in February when those layoffs happened and then a few months later when things continued to decline I actively recommended not going there.
Now the leader is writing a book and barely involved, grads are less and less prepared and alumni complain to me more and more about grads who are faking their resumes but not accompanying if with the grit and hustle needed to fake it til you make it.
Codesmith CEO: here's a thought experime…
This came up in my Youtube queue: [https://youtu.be/yZomz9vPqjg?si=QJ0DHU\_PrGEMMdHP&t=683](https://youtu.be/yZomz9vPqjg?si=QJ0DHU_PrGEMMdHP&t=683)
Apparently the CEO totally is transparent that it's not that he's "not a very good engineer" but he's "barely one at all" and that "the stuff I was teaching \[\] I was learning as I go", "when I was making my hard parts workshops I didn't know how a map function works"
So I guess it's not really a secret that he new practically nothing about engineering when starting Codesmith and he actually considers it a strength.
But he does claim that he made the Hard Parts from scratch. Which was late 2010s, so even if it's true that the original materials were copied, it seems he entirely changed to a first principals approach at some point long ago such that any recent Codesmith student went through original curriculum.
I mean I don't know what's confidential but there were private legal processes involved and the sourcing seems good, I just can't source publicly so I have to say allegidly.