Wow that's a lot of hustle to try to find paths for grads and I think it's really the only way for bootcamps to survive right now.... by dedicating 150% of your time to trying to find any nook and cranny of advantage for your grads in a market so bad that each partnership puts only a small debt into the problem and you find something deep inside to keep on going.
We've seen a similar level of trying creative angles at Launch School (e.g. open source mentorships on Firefox and such).
Others give up and try to pivot to AI, like App Academy completely stopped its SWE program and only does AI - same with BloomTech. Launch Academy paused entirely.
Some of the larger ones like General Assembly and Galvanize are somehow keeping the lights on and I would like to know more about them.
I'm very nervous about Codesmith, which was arguably the top bootcamp based on outcomes until 2023, and which has made almost zero hiring program changes in response to the bootcamp crash of 2024 - with surface level marketing adjustments and no substantial changes. Spending a year to repurpose a failed ML offshoot and add 2 weeks and 5 AI lectures to their SWE program - some are already out of date. A
Instead of trying to find all avenues possible for placement, their CEO is spending time writing a book about AI ethics and inequality, going to conferences. All while being completely delusional about a placement rate that dropped 30 to 50% 2022 to 2023, trying to be covered up with ghost placements.... just so polar opposite of the bootcamps that are hanging on.
We'll see by the end of 2025 which SWE bootcamps make it, but it seems so far that the ones with their leaders giving their hearts and souls through 150% of their time, relentlessly trying to find creative new paths for their grads, are where I would bet on right now, not the ones focusing all of their time on creative marketing instead.
u/Real-Set-1210 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
So six month post grad - looking at zero percent that found full time swe jobs.
Got it thanks.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
My 2 cents is relative outcomes are important and as long as a bootcamp is consistent in it's measurement and explains the trends then we're good.
It's not good if see something like Codesmith where they change the goal posts (e.g. 12 month placements instead of 6 months - conveniently changing in a terrible market when their placement rate tanked) and trying to post metrics and numbers that look good, while insulting you by calling it rigorous transparency - that's scam behavior.
I expect Turing to continue to publish the numbers they have been and explaining the trends proactively.
I don't think Turing's recent struggles have been hidden or misleading anyone.
I would push on what 'market turning around a little bit in 2025' means.
I'm not seeing anything turn around for entry level roles and there are two possibilities:
1. The partnerships they are making are helping some people get placed here and there and there are enough to add up to impact the overall placement rate.
2. People are taking different kinds of jobs.
You can achieve a placement rate through #2 with a lot of sketchy twists - like Codesmith's ghosting placement count spiking to 65% of "placements" in 2023 - meaning the majority of alumni disappeared but counted as a placement from their LinkedIn, and without providing an explanation for why this spike happened.
Like Jeff said above, if more people got temp jobs in 2023 than 2022 and they count as a placement based on the rules they follow, then it doesn't tell the whole picture either.
u/Real-Set-1210 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Both you and Jeff are definitely solidifying that bootcamps are a terrible idea. Appreciate the openness and honesty.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Yeah my personal opinion is that bootcamps are a terrible idea right now. You can read my posts and I struggle to see how a SWE bootcamp can be relevant in 2025.
I do think a handful of programs will hang on and stay small and niche and maybe Turing will be one of the.
But the days of the SWE bootcamp disrupting the tech industry are over.
u/jcasimir wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I think that's right.
It's also a bit tough when we're always considering lagging indicators. No one wants to talk about 2021/2022 outcomes because that was "a different market" (I would agree), 2023 feels kind of "old", 2024 is so recent that you can only really evaluate the f
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Yeah I'm really curious what's working for entry level jobs. I have a very good handle through Formation on FAANG-mid-level and FAANG-senior.
As you know, I keep a close eye on Codesmith as the largest 'top 3' bootcamp, and placements are still terrible there and half the people placed have over a year of "work experience" on their LinkedIn which is their 3 week long project. I had some AI analyze that and it didn't do a good job to publish, but it was ridiculous to see maybe half the placements relying on framing a 3-4 week project as 12+ months of experiences only because they put "X - Present" on their LinkedIn and have been job hunting for 12+ months.... A bunch of the people also worked at Codesmith as a teaching assistant and they delay their clock by the time they worked there. So someone who graduated 2 years ago, was a part time assistant for 6 months, has 1.5 years at their group project listed on their LinkedIn then took another 11 months to get a job... counts a placement.
I hope Turing grads aren't getting jobs using these tactics. It does work, but some day it will collapse, and that might be now.
u/jcasimir wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
It's a bit tough because in the aggregate I don't want to see people misrepresenting themselves and also, I know that if I'm in those shoes, I'm doing everything I can to find a job even if it means bending the truth. I don't tell anyone to do those kinds of things and also I und
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
Yeah for sure, I've also seen probably every permutation of representation under the sun haha.
Ultimately people are responsible for their individual choice. If they over-represent and perform poorly, then it makes companies never want to hire bootcamp grads again (which is one thing that has happened a number of times). If they over-represent and do well, do the ends justify the means? A lot of this is blurry for sure.
The thing I have a major problem with at Codesmith is the majority of people have the exact same looking experience on their resumes, and grads have told me it's the only way the career support engineers advise doing it (as an explanation as to why -as Codesmith denies telling people to do this) - and then their 'sister company' OSLabs signs letters of reference for background checks backing whatever people tell them they did.
Codesmith's CEO has stated explicitly that gatekeepers are blocking high-capacity bootcamp grads from getting a chance and that Codesmith grads ARE mid level and senior engineers - so while he's never said the 'ends justify the means' explicitly, he's implied that Codesmith grads should be getting jobs they deserve and it doesn't really matter how they get them.
u/jcasimir wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Yeah at the point where there are secondary companies and people are writing letters of reference -- it sure feels like you've crossed a line.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Yeah I've actually seen some Codesmith grads start an LLC for their project. Not sure if the IP paperwork is on the up and up there, but running an LLC teaches you something! haha.
Before I did Formation, we ran a company called Buildschool that WAS a free bootcamp, where senior engineers did paid contracting projects and the students learned by shadowing those projects and some became paid contractors on them later on was a really good model and a lot of those people placed and have great jobs.
The problem is the projects don't scale. Each one is different and unique. But like I keep saying, if you stay smaller and hands on focused on placement, it could work.
u/decaf_flat_white wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I’m impartial here friend. I am just calling out the need to write an essay as a response to every question. That reply could have been three sentences, maximum.
Long winded answers give the perception that you aren’t confident or are trying to mislead or confuse by wordsmithin
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I write long answers because I don't have time to write shorter ones.
u/sheriffderek wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
\> trying to find any nook and cranny of advantage for your grads in a market so bad...
I don't think this shows the full picture though.
Not everyone is trying to get a *software engineering* job. There are plenty of web developer type jobs people who are reasonably capable ca
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I agree that the world is changing and SWE bootcamps haven't adapted, but at the same time the SWE market isn't tiny and it has trends and well the world is changing, there are tons of SWE jobs still and they are going to top CS students.
I'm using that to judge specific bootcamps marketing and claims that say otherwise.
Stanford CS is like 200K plus 4 years plus effort to even get in the first place.
So there's an argument that a boot camp could accelerate something in a shorter period of time, but it is not getting you to the same destination.
therefore, my view on this is that bootcamps are competing for the wrong SWE jobs.
It's irrelevant that the market changed, all that did was expose the above fundamental facts.
When I see bootcamps like Codesmith just yesterday advertising incredible 2024 outcomes (like they did throughout 2023 and 2024) they are absolutely delusional about reality and all the bootcamps that think like this are going to fail.
u/conmanhater wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
The responsible thing to do would be to SHUT DOWN THE GRIFT.
I know way too many people who are in $50k+ of debt because of this program without a job in tech, not even an entry level call center job, myself included. I graduated in the last couple years and still haven't f
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I think a lot of this applies to a lot of bootcamps right now. If they only admitted people with corporate experience and who are well connected, then it might work for those people and maybe the business can go on.
Gone are the days that just anyone can walk into a bootcamp and leave with a SWE job... it never made sense and it still doesn't.
I feel super cringe when I see posts and ads from bootcamps like 'X did it you! You can too!' or '2024 was a great year, are you next?'... it should be illegal but it isn't and I'm in this sub to look at things from a middle of the road angle.
Turing sure is trying and you can pat them on the back for trying while simultaneously stating that they have an impossible mission....