Thoughts? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
When I mention the word Codesmith one to three people come out of nowhere and down vote every single thing I comment for a day or two
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Thoughts? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
100% agree, and that's why I am a white male who dedicated the rest of life to bridging this gap.
Lack of diversity in tech is in my opinion the most important factor in the future of tech.
But the lack in of diversity needs to be solved on menu fronts. If people with non traditional tech backgrounds and diverse backgrounds want a seat at the table, I'm here to help bridge part of that gap. It's not entirely systematic reasons, but part of it is too.
Thoughts? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Find someone else to harass. I don't stand down to bullies and what beats bullies is the truth.
Anyone can see my comment history and see what I talk about: Codesmith and otherwise. If you are stalking me with authorized Reddit apps that's harassment.
I get all my data from stuff the CEO explicitly shared himself, or public data, so turn your energy on him and ask him why he's shared this stuff if you are pissed off at me.
Thoughts? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Devil's advocate, been on the other side and seen bootcamp grads struggle to progress beyond a level because of major lack of concepts that are assumed to be covered in a CS degree.
They aren't tested for because they are just assumed, so if you don't have a CS degree and have never heard of most of these things and have no awareness of that, then I could see a CTO being concerned.
A mishire can be extremely costly
800 applications in, not sure where to go · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
The market hasn't improved at all and sorry it's been rough. It's not improved since you graduated and you've been through the rough of it.
I would start looking at support engineer and tangential roles to get stable and make a push to be a SWE later.
you might get lucky and get a SWE job right now, but you'll be in the minority and here's no systematic way to get there
Thoughts? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
"Yes, there have been instances where individuals faced legal consequences for misrepresenting themselves as engineers without the necessary credentials. Here are a few examples:
1. **Canada**: There have been cases where individuals were fined or faced legal action for using the title "Engineer" without being licensed. For example, in Ontario, the Professional Engineers Act allows the provincial regulatory body to prosecute individuals who falsely use the title "Engineer."
2. **United States**: In some states, unauthorized use of the title "Engineer" can lead to fines or other penalties. For instance, in Oregon, there was a notable case where an individual was fined for using the title "Engineer" without being licensed, even though the case involved a dispute over the interpretation of the law.
These legal actions typically involve civil penalties such as fines rather than jail time.…
Thoughts? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
You can but you can be fined or go to jail in the most extreme case:
"In some countries, the title "software engineer" is regulated and requires specific credentials or certifications. Here are a few examples:
1. **Canada**: In provinces like Ontario, the title "Engineer" is regulated by law. To legally call yourself a "Software Engineer," you need to be licensed by a provincial or territorial engineering regulatory body, such as Professional Engineers Ontario (PEO).
2. **United States**: The regulation of the title "Engineer" varies by state. Some states have laws that protect the title, requiring a Professional Engineer (PE) license to use it. However, in many states, the term "Software Engineer" is not as strictly regulated.
3. **Australia**: The title "Engineer" is also regulated, and using it typically requires certification by Engineers Australia or a similar body, especially f…
Thoughts? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
This is true in some countries. The word "engineer" is like "medical doctor" and saying you are one requires certification/credentials.
Thoughts? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Yeah I agree. We don't have apprenticeships en masse so what should someone do? It's a free for all and I don't think there is one way to do it, but the result is bootcamp grads fighting to find edge cases and one off opportunities to get a foot in the door.
Now that the entry level market was wiped out and there are no loopholes we're seeing a bunch of bootcamps struggling and shutting down and laying off.
The response has been to rebrand tangential engineering jobs as just as good or better than SWE jobs and have people go there.
Codesmith had a grad go to Palantir as a customer support engineer and framed it as a new role for the modern engineer.... when it's an age old role that is NOT a SWE role even though it is indeed a great job.
But these are the times we're in. If there are no SWE jobs and you can't rebrand, you will fail, not enough entry level SWE jobs to make a program t…
Thoughts? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
To me this is more complicated than a one sentence tweet.
Are you a software engineer? Sure, you can be whoever you want to be and it doesn't really matter because the Dunning Kruger Effect is much more important to understand.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/markmurphy/2017/01/24/the-dunning-kruger-effect-shows-why-some-people-think-theyre-great-even-when-their-work-is-terrible/
More dense original paper https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780123855220000056
It's not so much that "aha you ARE an imposter!" but a rejection of people who are at that initial peak of Dunning Kruger and have no idea whatsoever how far they have to go.
Like - I did a bootcamp, I'm as capable as a mid level and senior engineer is peak Dunning Kruger. Codesmith grads and Codesmith leaders you should read about this.
Helping you realize what you don't know yet is a step towards overcoming…
Any reviews of triple ten and how does there repayment after job work? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Which option do they have to defer payment until after you get a job?
The Meritize option doesn't defer until you get a job, but it defers for the time until you graduate, and that time is set at the typical expected graduation time.
You have to pay interest in the mean time, and you have to start paying it back after some maximum amount of time even if you aren't graduated by then as the deferment period is based on some expected graduation time.
I can't explain this to you legally, but you should make sure you understand all the details from them!
Tech Adjacent Roles? Give up? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
These roles can be fantastic in big tech and great outcomes for bootcamp grads. If you want to be a generalist SWE though, it can be a tough conversion down the road. You might need extra training if you want to becomes a SWE by switching companies and the ideal is to switch to SWE IN THE SAME COMPANY and be supported doing so.
Capstone Project Ideas for Bootcamp · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Very busy, might add more after, but 10 second advice - build something you would use and you know some friends would use. Get them to use it and get some feedback and iterate on it!
u/michaelnovati replied ·
The only setting I see (there are far too many settings and Reddit is working on improving moderator tools) is the spam filter aggressiveness on "links" is set to high (which is the Reddit default). There's no granular setting I see about links to images.
They rely heavily on AI to moderate and a lot of stuff is flagged. For example some of the other people were flagged as "harassment" so the AI is determining sentiment and more now.
AI Development Career Path · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Can you elaborate on how you know this will improve your life 10X?
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I started a mod thread about this and was encouraged to ban all of you, which I'm not doing because I think that's wrong.
But seriously get it together and stop making stuff up, just ask and believe my answers or discuss them without making false accusations. If you don't trust me and I'm a moderator and you don't like this place, leave and go spend your time more effectively elsewhere.
I got banned from the Codesmith sub, from Codesmith CSX Slack, permanently banned from all Codesmith events, for pointing out an alumni placement they were highlight is no longer employed at the company they said he was.
Not all communities are for everyone and if this one isn't for you, you can leave!
Don't waste your time with this bootcamp · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I've been seeing them all over the place yeah and offering huge discounts, 30 to 50%. Using that $16M you mentioned!
Idk man... Tech Elevator just wasn't it for me · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
They aren't and they are closing. The ones that do like TripleTen and Springboard, are incentiveized to get you to 1. stay long enough to owe the full amount, 2. not help you on the job hunt so you miss rigid requirements and eye the full amount.
This is cynical way of looking at it, but my personal opinion is just that it doesn't work unless most people get jobs and in this market most people aren't getting jobs.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
This is correct. When I talk about other programs there are very short threads. When I talk about Codesmith people come out of nowhere and we have these endless back and forths
The Codesmith comments are very dense on Codesmith posts and comments and it has to do both with my frequent commentary about Codesmith AND the amount of back and forth that happens when I talk about them.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
It's called Crowd Control and it's an automated Reddit tool working effectively at hiding low engaged accounts that show up in the sub.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
This comment was also removed with the same message "Removed by Reddit"
I believe you are seeing that, Reddit has a ton of consistency issues across old vs new
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I can't share screenshots in comments but it says "Removed by Reddit" to me and it doesn't say a reason.
Maybe a "Reddit Moderator"?
I didn't report it either so I would GUESS AI doesn't like it.
Similar to Google Ads, sometimes we can't explain the AI lol
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Reddit removed your post I think, wasn't me and not sure if my reply will go through, but I'm replying anyways:
1. 100% agree one of the things that comes with being open is that you should be reasonably questioned and that's the critical part to being open. On the other hand, it's not open seasons to anonymously attack me (which you aren't doing Ludo and you aren't anonymous, but others have over the years).
2. I don't know what to say, I logged into our Google Ads account and spent time to confirm myself and the only keyword we are targeting with the word bootcamp in it is "formation bootcamp" and it had 0.2% of all impressions compared to all of our keywords. Google Ads use all kinds of algorithms to display you ads and we are not targeting any other terms with "bootcamp" in it and most of the impressions are for variations of "interview prep".
If you don't think I'm lying on the r…
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
FACT: I stated this for the public record: I asked the team and we do not and have not as far as they are aware, bid on any Google search keywords containing the word "bootcamp", other than "formation bootcamp" (as we bid on many phrases containing formation as it's a Beyonce song and common term)
I don't know all of the job offer details people are getting no, but if it was shared to the public intentionally I would see no problem using it in theory. But no, I don't know all of the job offer details.
I key part of this analysis is that CIRR 2022 data is out, so if I run a less perfect analysis on 2022 data and compare to CIRR, I can do the same analysis on 2023 data and adjust the output based on that + other factors (like that 2023 cohorts were on average smaller according to the public record, APPROX: 30ish H1 2023 and high 20s in H2 2023.)
I'm allowed to pay attention to details,…
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Are you saying that I'm not accurately describing the job market right now?
And you are saying that my narrative around the terrible and negative market is intentionally a lie to manipulate people?
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
1. We're not competing with any bootcamps at this time and have repeatedly told you that. I've given you the objective correct answer from the source of truth and you keep spreading the same false narrative. If you do not have a year of SWE work experience you will be auto rejected. If you have under 2, you will likely be rejected but can have a conversation about. If you are special case, we might admit you under a year, but I can count those people on one hand in the past year.
We might compete with bootcamps in the future, but have no plans to anytime soon and it would require a large investment and changes on our part.
2. I explained how we advertise on Reddit and that we target all the top programming subs and we have re-targeting ads anywhere. So people who engage with Formation will see us everywhere, not just here.
3. You don't have any right to say who I am and why I do what…
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
1. As I told you privately before this post, I had our team check and we do not bid on any keywords containing the word "bootcamp" other than "formation bootcamp", and none of our Google ads say we are a bootcamp.
2. As I'm sure people here will attest, we flat out automatically reject people who don't have a year of SWE WORK experience since mid 2023. So a struggling bootcamp grad will not be a candidate for Formation right now.
3. I openly acknowledged my conflicts transparently. The individuals whose close allies have informed me lurk this sub anonymously and manipulate by engaging under the radar are who you should be going after if you care about conflicts and integrity.
Don't waste your time with this bootcamp · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Wow is that a real post or sarcasm, that's crazy!
Don't waste your time with this bootcamp · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Are you able to comment on the job guarantee? Like if students actually received it, how many, etc....?
Futurecode NYC x Codesmith program · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I think they will allow you in as long as you don't have paid work experience doing programming and don't have a CS degree.
I was also confused about this because Codesmith claims people who did CSX are junior engineer hirable so therefore they shouldn't be eligible but they assured me that someone who did CSX could do this as long as they weren't paid SWEs.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
+1 CS grads are having trouble too and it's not the single answer
Futurecode NYC x Codesmith program · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah that sounds like a good reason to go for it yeah!
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Yeah I mean the number of alumni in 2023 vs 2022 is about the same and I expect 2024 to have like 1/4 of the number of alumni and they are more "ready" for the process mentally speaking. I don't know if that means they'll get more jobs.
I know Codesmith for example, people are starting to tangential jobs and be celebrated for it. Like customer support engineering roles, whereas historically people got SWE roles and all they talked about was mid level SWE.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Got long, TLDR: agree a bootcamp should do what it needs to to help you get your first job, including career services, but ultimately you are paying a bootcamp to teach out and not paying for a job and that has the following consequences.
-----
I have had super intense arguments with Codesmith people about this who adamently INSIST their lifetime mock interviews are amazing and any other service (like [Interviewing.io](http://Interviewing.io) or my company) are a waste of money.
There is a massive difference in a mock interview run like a real interview with a former Google engineer who has interviewed people on the job recently, than an alumni or teacher doing a mock interview and giving you feedback.
Notice I said "DIFFERENCE" and not that one is better or worse, both are good. The bootcamp should do what it does because it's super helpful to have multiple points of view and types…
u/michaelnovati replied ·
just for clarity: I meant "top" in terms of graduation rates + placement rates + outcomes, but it's subjective what bars are the "top" for these things. Like "world's best hamburger"
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Well this bootcamp is arguable the best one/top three, and if this data is accurate, it's whoing that no matter what they do, it's not giving you more than a coin flip chance at getting a job in a year after graduating.
That's not the right characterization because each individual has control over their actions and it's not a coin flip.
But assuming they let in amazing people in 2022 and just as amazing people in 2023. The ones in 2023 are getting jobs at a much slower rate, or not getting them at all yet.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I totally agree that even in the good market people EXPECT to do extra work after graduating and good bootcamps prepared people for that.
What I'm talking about is people who do extra PAID stuff. Like interview prep, mock interviews, online course, mentorship circles, etc...
People who paid $20K for the bootcamp, then did 3 other programs after paying another $20K, don't attribute their job super strongly to the bootcamps (like they get SOME CREDIT! just we don't see those people posting on Reddit about how they finally got a job and their bootcamp was responsible).
I personally saw this way more often in the boom times of 2021. Right now it's so hard to get a job for bootcamp grads we're **declining** to work with post-bootcamp grads trying to get first job for 6 months and want more paid support.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
SWE generalist is the most secure you can be. Which is a SWE who can work in any part of the stack on on any kind of problem.
I wouldn't worry about AI yet. AI is going to create a bunch of new kinds of jobs - which might be amazing for bootcamp grads. We're seeing Codesmith go heavily in this direction trying to push AI skills to students and encouraging them to take all kinds of "tangential" SWE jobs. Those are all one-off jobs right now, e.g. a Lawyer Prompt Engineer (definitely not something anyone going in would assume they would get), but in the future, these will be real entry level jobs to get into tech, and being a Generalist SWE will be the longer term thing you become over time.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Well people who get jobs aren't generally posting about it haha. Because they know they are the exception case and posting about it is like bragging you won the lottery.
I also know people getting jobs > 1 year after graduating, after doing other volunteering, mentorships, projects etc... and they don't attribute the whole placement to the original bootcamp and some ways are not happy that they had to do so much extra to get the job.
Futurecode NYC x Codesmith program · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
1. It's free for you so that's amazing, you are basically getting Codesmith's immersive and more for free.
CONCERNS
1. The job market is terrible right now and this program requires you to have zero experience to get in. Unless they have hiring partners guaranteeing jobs, I would be cautious about planning to get a job at the end, just like any bootcamp.
2. Codesmith grads tend to portray their group projects and past work experience as close to software engineer work experience as possible in your resumes, many resumes leaving it up to the reader to realize these things are not actually SWE experience because they look like it. I'm going to be watching these people like a hawk because all Future Code people have zero SWE experience and if the majority of resumes indicate otherwise at the end of this program that will be a huge concern and they might get into legal trouble with the Ci…
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah the 45% is even being generous and accounting for people who ghosted and got confirmed because their LinkedIn says they got a job.
And this is the ONE YEAR.POST GRADUATION rate which is a new concept replacing the canonical 6 months post graduation rate that was the standard. The six month rate is terrible for this bootcamp.
But yesh, we need to wait on 2024 but it's looking the same or worse so far.
u/michaelnovati posted · · edited ★ FEATURED
Unofficial Analysis: a top bootcamp's 2023 grad placement rates APPEAR TO DROP ALMOST HALF from 2022 grad placement rates (from about 80% to 45%). Even the best can't beat the market right now. [Illustrative only, may contain errors]
DISCLAIMER: I'm a moderator of this sub and I'm the co-founder of mentorship and interview prep platform aimed at helping existing SWE's prepare for upcoming interviews and level up their SWE jobs. We do not compete with bootcamps but I have a conflict of interest because we work with a bunch of bootcamp grads later in their careers. More bootcamp grads === more customers in a couple years, so I believe I have a bias to encourage people to go to bootcamps rather than be doom and gloom on the industry like this post largely is. BUT having worked with so many bootcamp grads I think it's imperative people have as much information as possible if they are inve…
Looking for referral link for triple ten bootcamp · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
My 2 cents/opinion is if you are going to switch to get a career in tech, you're making a long term transition that might result in a very large increase in future total compensation and choosing programs based on the deal or discount you get isn't the right reason.
The job market is really hard right now and no one, including Triple Ten, have the answer. So finding the right program for you, and devoting 1 to 2 years to the transition, is table stakes right now.
If you just want to do it to learn and compared to Udemy, Coursera, and Udacity you want to do Triple Ten, then that might be a good reason to get a discount.
100% that were truly committed found tech jobs within a year · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
If anyone ever says 100% that's hard to state lol. I know Launch School had a 100% capstone placement rate (during the boom times and largely because the bar to get in is to do well at the Core product and then join when the time is right) but so many people thought they were lying.
Commitment does matter. If you don't give up you'll eventually get a job, just what kind of job, and how long it takes might make the whole process not worth it. And it might take a lot of people way more than a year.
Software engineering · r/bootcamps
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Maybe this https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/s/5kn13jNmWv
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Sorry I didn't realize the wording of that was poor at the time but think it was now.
I meant the CEO, the advisors, etc... have other ways to make money and could do number of other things so my theory is they are sticking to Codesmith's current narrative out of 1. loyalty and 2. pride.
I didn't meant to imply Will was making money from FrontEnd Masters directly - just that it's evidence that he could make money teaching in other ways.
As a 2019 bootcamp grad, the market saddens me for all of the current/recent grads · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
+1 to be smart and real. Don't join a bootcamp that makes you think the market is fine or that their students have the secret formula to success.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't do a bootcamp but you have to go for the right reasons and the right expectations.
I'm having issues with the Work Email section.... anyone has an idea what i can do? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I would use ChatGPT to, can take that screenshot and give the answer!
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I'll edit my comment yeah, I didn't because I stand by the argument but since you are bringing it up again I'll clean it up a bit to address the feedback.
I was an instructor at coding dojo for 4 years and got laid off in January. · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I posted the thing you linked to above but I want to clarify two things in this comment:
Launch Academy temporarily halted enrollment
Codesmith continues enrolling but reduced from 4 cohorts options + 1 part time to 1 cohort option + 1 part time
Rithm School had possible layoffs, but continues enrolling as of 5/26/2024