To me this is more complicated than a one sentence tweet.
Are you a software engineer? Sure, you can be whoever you want to be and it doesn't really matter because the Dunning Kruger Effect is much more important to understand.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/markmurphy/2017/01/24/the-dunning-kruger-effect-shows-why-some-people-think-theyre-great-even-when-their-work-is-terrible/
More dense original paper https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780123855220000056
It's not so much that "aha you ARE an imposter!" but a rejection of people who are at that initial peak of Dunning Kruger and have no idea whatsoever how far they have to go.
Like - I did a bootcamp, I'm as capable as a mid level and senior engineer is peak Dunning Kruger. Codesmith grads and Codesmith leaders you should read about this.
Helping you realize what you don't know yet is a step towards overcoming that initial peak of misalignment in Dunning Kruger and is not gatekeeping, it's the exact opposite.
u/AT1787 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I don’t disagree but until they have a “Software Engineer in Training” as a formal title on resume, I don’t think putting Software Engineer post bootcamp on your resume is a heuristic for the dunning kruger effect. It’s moreso a case by case basis on how someone receives feedback
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Yeah I agree. We don't have apprenticeships en masse so what should someone do? It's a free for all and I don't think there is one way to do it, but the result is bootcamp grads fighting to find edge cases and one off opportunities to get a foot in the door.
Now that the entry level market was wiped out and there are no loopholes we're seeing a bunch of bootcamps struggling and shutting down and laying off.
The response has been to rebrand tangential engineering jobs as just as good or better than SWE jobs and have people go there.
Codesmith had a grad go to Palantir as a customer support engineer and framed it as a new role for the modern engineer.... when it's an age old role that is NOT a SWE role even though it is indeed a great job.
But these are the times we're in. If there are no SWE jobs and you can't rebrand, you will fail, not enough entry level SWE jobs to make a program that systematically places people into them.
Sorry a bit tangent, but trying to add depth onto the complexities here that make this way more than a tweet haha
u/AT1787 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I used “Software Engineer” as a job title on LinkedIn to match the title of what the company gave me and letters were sent to every dev in my company from a professional engineering organization to stop using it. So I guess this is true, since Engineer is a regulated term, though
u/michaelnovatireplied·
This is true in some countries. The word "engineer" is like "medical doctor" and saying you are one requires certification/credentials.
u/starraven wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Im sure you can just ignore this request too,
but I would be so curious to see this letter. Would anonymize the letter and post it here? Or even just paste the text of it in a reply. Thx🙏
u/michaelnovatireplied·
You can but you can be fined or go to jail in the most extreme case:
"In some countries, the title "software engineer" is regulated and requires specific credentials or certifications. Here are a few examples:
1. **Canada**: In provinces like Ontario, the title "Engineer" is regulated by law. To legally call yourself a "Software Engineer," you need to be licensed by a provincial or territorial engineering regulatory body, such as Professional Engineers Ontario (PEO).
2. **United States**: The regulation of the title "Engineer" varies by state. Some states have laws that protect the title, requiring a Professional Engineer (PE) license to use it. However, in many states, the term "Software Engineer" is not as strictly regulated.
3. **Australia**: The title "Engineer" is also regulated, and using it typically requires certification by Engineers Australia or a similar body, especially for positions that imply responsibility for public safety.
4. **Germany**: The title "Ingenieur" (Engineer) is legally protected, and one must have an appropriate academic degree from a recognized institution to use it.
In many other countries, the title "Software Engineer" is not strictly regulated, and anyone can use it without specific credentials or certifications."
ChatGPT
u/michaelnovati wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
You can but you can be fined or go to jail in the most extreme case:
"In some countries, the title "software engineer" is regulated and requires specific credentials or certifications. Here are a few examples:
1. **Canada**: In provinces like Ontario, the title "Engineer" is re
u/michaelnovatireplied·
"Yes, there have been instances where individuals faced legal consequences for misrepresenting themselves as engineers without the necessary credentials. Here are a few examples:
1. **Canada**: There have been cases where individuals were fined or faced legal action for using the title "Engineer" without being licensed. For example, in Ontario, the Professional Engineers Act allows the provincial regulatory body to prosecute individuals who falsely use the title "Engineer."
2. **United States**: In some states, unauthorized use of the title "Engineer" can lead to fines or other penalties. For instance, in Oregon, there was a notable case where an individual was fined for using the title "Engineer" without being licensed, even though the case involved a dispute over the interpretation of the law.
These legal actions typically involve civil penalties such as fines rather than jail time. However, the consequences can still be significant, including monetary fines and injunctions against using the title."
u/starraven wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
One of the companies I was hired at, the hiring manager loved me, basically passed me on to HR to sign an offer... and the CTO saw the choice (saw my resume) and pulled me into an extra interview (past the technical and the design interview) where he STARTED THE INTERVIEW launchi
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Devil's advocate, been on the other side and seen bootcamp grads struggle to progress beyond a level because of major lack of concepts that are assumed to be covered in a CS degree.
They aren't tested for because they are just assumed, so if you don't have a CS degree and have never heard of most of these things and have no awareness of that, then I could see a CTO being concerned.
A mishire can be extremely costly
u/SimilarGlass5 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Oh look, you found a way to fit in another of your diatribes against Codesmith! What does that make it? 860 Codesmith mentions out of your 1000 comments on Reddit? And no...you didn't bring them up because someone else dragged you into a back and forth about them.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Find someone else to harass. I don't stand down to bullies and what beats bullies is the truth.
Anyone can see my comment history and see what I talk about: Codesmith and otherwise. If you are stalking me with authorized Reddit apps that's harassment.
I get all my data from stuff the CEO explicitly shared himself, or public data, so turn your energy on him and ask him why he's shared this stuff if you are pissed off at me.
u/starraven wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I get that for sure! I will continue to battle these things and find some camaraderie in /r/womenintech I will just say it’s hard to relate sometimes when you are a minority of a minority in the field.
> software engineers employed in the United States (according to the latest
u/michaelnovatireplied·
100% agree, and that's why I am a white male who dedicated the rest of life to bridging this gap.
Lack of diversity in tech is in my opinion the most important factor in the future of tech.
But the lack in of diversity needs to be solved on menu fronts. If people with non traditional tech backgrounds and diverse backgrounds want a seat at the table, I'm here to help bridge part of that gap. It's not entirely systematic reasons, but part of it is too.
u/starraven wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I'm not downvoting you btw, i'm upvoting you ... sigh Why do they do that what did you do to have people do that so frequently?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
When I mention the word Codesmith one to three people come out of nowhere and down vote every single thing I comment for a day or two
u/Suitable-Aardvark862 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Sooo how do I not become an imposter
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Experience. And you get experience by having experience.
....which is why this subreddit has so much controversy haha
u/tangowithyou22 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I'm what states do those with a computer science degree take an engineering licensing exam?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I'm not sure but I haven't seen this before a problem in the US before
u/tangowithyou22 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
In the US Architects take an exam, Medical Doctors are licensed as well. Do software engineers take a licensing exam?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
People can take exams but I don't know any laws or regulations (I'm not a lawyer though!) that require it for software engineers.
u/starraven wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Oof I guess they all went south. Yeah my friends did it in person in 2017.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I was talking to someone recently about a top tier bootcamps and "selection bias". If a program survived/survives off of identify special people that work for the program and admitting them, it's going to be limited to 1) the number of "special people" the program can find, and 2) the market wanted these "special people"
We've seen both hurt previously great bootcamps. Some lowered the bar and took anyone who would pay. Others haven't adapted to the market.
The new wrench in the current market is that the people might not be getting "software engineer" jobs at all. A top bootcamp that is just barely getting by right now (as all the top bootcamps are) has been highlighting placements as support engineers, or prompt engineers, or lawyer engineer, and things that aren't even SWE jobs anymore.
... so I guess in my rambling, maybe there's option #3 - change the definition of the expected result to match the market. If you can't place SWE, change your marketing so people expect a "tech job" instead and if you can keep the placements going, you can survive.
u/starraven wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Is it people who failed out of CodeSmith? People who work for Codesmith? I feel like I've seen so many people say Codesmith has cult vibes, but really they just have the "best" program (And I'll admit, being the best of a lot of crap isn't saying much).
But thanks for the rep
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I don't care enough to deep dive, but people with all kinds of relationships have sent me screenshots of conversations and I know that at various points in time it has been a) alumni, b) staff members, c) leaders but I really have no idea who's doing it now.
What I do know is that, like all bootcamps, Codesmith isn't doing well now. They might be even doing better than many others, but as you said, best of crap might be crap - which I don't think any of the top bootcamps are at all).
The "cult vibes" I also don't have a direct source of, but I have three notes:
1. The CEO speaks about the "community" he's built over 9 years as the product that Codesmith built, not the curriculum and not the class. So if you are an alumni, you ARE THE PRODUCT of Codesmith and if they did a good job, you were produced to be a strong community member.
2. CEO Control - this is multi-part. First, they have little outside investment and the CEO doesn't have the checks and balances most companies have from investors. Staff members have told me that no one questions the CEO, they worship him, yet he doesn't have a lot of actual experience, so sometimes his opinions are taken as gospel without challenge. Second, all of the instructors went to Codesmith itself and almost all haven't worked in industry at all. This let's the CEO's will be imposed throughout without question. Instructors who worked in the outside post-Codesmith haven't lasted long and don't seem too happy.
3. Life Changing - about 10% of graudations get top tier-equivalent roles, which is a few hundred people, and of those people, they consider Codesmith the most lifechanging experience they have ever had and they fight of it. Which is completely understandable and I don't discredit anyone who had such an experience.... it's just not representative of the average graduate. I'm not trying to take anyone down, I'm just trying to make sure all the bootcamps are see how the wide range of alumni I talk to see them - good and bad.
u/starraven wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
👋 Hello, Can I ask you what you have against codesmith or against people talking about codesmith? I'm kind of naive i guess to the issue.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
SimilarGlass5: 100% of comments about Codesmith (past 4 years)
Mean\_Rough1137: 100% of comments about Codesmith
Infinite-Platform-78: 100% of comments about Codesmith
A bunch of the other accounts on my list are permanently banned from Reddit.
I also want to know why these people do what they do with fake accounts.