Unofficial Analysis: a top bootcamp's 2023 grad placement rates APPEAR TO DROP ALMOST HALF from 2022 grad placement rates (from about 80% to 45%). Even the best can't beat the market right now. [Illustrative only, may contain errors]
Unofficial Analysis: a top bootcamp's 2023 grad placement rates APPEAR TO DROP ALMOST HALF from 2022 grad placement rates (from about 80% to 45%). Even the best can't beat the market right now. [Illustrative only, may contain errors]
DISCLAIMER: I'm a moderator of this sub and I'm the co-founder of mentorship and interview prep platform aimed at helping existing SWE's prepare for upcoming interviews and level up their SWE jobs. We do not compete with bootcamps but I have a conflict of interest because we work with a bunch of bootcamp grads later in their careers. More bootcamp grads === more customers in a couple years, so I believe I have a bias to encourage people to go to bootcamps rather than be doom and gloom on the industry like this post largely is. BUT having worked with so many bootcamp grads I think it's imperative people have as much information as possible if they are investing in a career change from non-tech to engineering so they can choose the best path for them (whether it's a bootcamp or not) and right expectations on placement time.
**SUMMARY:**
I analyzed the 1 year post-graduation outcomes for 2022 graduates (full year) and 2023 graduates (between Jan and May 2023) from a top bootcamp (generally regarded as one of the best of the best).
**The analysis (see the methodology below) shows that while placement rates for 2022 graduates within 1 year of graduation were around 80%, the corresponding rate for 2023 graudates (Jan to May) within 1 year of their graduation appears to be approximately 45%.**
**NOTE AGAIN - THIS IS ILLUSTRATIVE AND NOT OFFICIAL DATA - IT MIGHT BE WRONG BUT IS AN ESTIMATE BASED ON THE PROCESS BELOW**
**WHY AM POSTING THIS?**
1. Bootcamps aren't doing great, from layoffs to cancelled cohorts, to shrinking offerings, to shutting down entirely We've seen bootcamps close (CodeUp, Epicodus, more), layoffs and lowering offerings (Codesmith, Hack Reactor, Tech Elevator, Rithm, Edx, BloomTech, more).
2. Now more than ever, if you are looking at a bootcamp, you can judge them from past outcomes, but you can't use them to predict IF it will work for you and WHEN it will work for you.
3. If you are considering a bootcamp right now, give yourself at least a year and potentially two years post graduation to get a job.
4. This analysis is showing that that if you went to the best bootcamp in 20
5. DO NOT WEIGHT ALUMNI STORIES/ADVICE ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCE - the market is not the same now and your path will not be remotely the same.
6. Some schools, like Launch School, are fairly transparent about how bad mid-late 2023 outcomes were, some are not. If you are looking at a bootcamp that is telling you things aren't that bad and they have an 80% placement rate, run for the hills. ON THE OTHER HAND: expect BAD RATES and don't run for the hills from honesty.
**METHODOLOGY:**
**I'm not naming the bootcamp used for this because it's not about a bootcamp, it's about the market**
1. Make a list of cohorts graduating in the respective analysis windows.
2. Estimate cohort sizes based on public information about cohorts and official reporting and calculate total estimate graduates for each window.
3. Sum the number of people graduating in the cohorts from #1 who reported getting a job.
4. Divide #3 by #2 to get the pseudo-placement rate for a given window.
5. Multiply the pseudo-placement rate by the official rate for 2022 grads to account for all kinds of reasons for why they pseudo-placement might be lower (graduates hired by school, people not reporting but placed, people not in the USA, etc...) and use that adjustment factor on the 2023 pseudo-placement rate to get the estimated rate.
u/pinelandseven wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Its leas than 45% in 2023 and less thsn 10% for 2024
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Yeah the 45% is even being generous and accounting for people who ghosted and got confirmed because their LinkedIn says they got a job.
And this is the ONE YEAR.POST GRADUATION rate which is a new concept replacing the canonical 6 months post graduation rate that was the standard. The six month rate is terrible for this bootcamp.
But yesh, we need to wait on 2024 but it's looking the same or worse so far.
u/Living-Big9138 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
With the job market , reading so many been looking for months for a job with hundreds of applications and still no job.
I read if your job is remote , you are easy replaceable. And with AI and what we keep hearing , future is tough as fk
Very hard to be motivated with all thi
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Well people who get jobs aren't generally posting about it haha. Because they know they are the exception case and posting about it is like bragging you won the lottery.
I also know people getting jobs > 1 year after graduating, after doing other volunteering, mentorships, projects etc... and they don't attribute the whole placement to the original bootcamp and some ways are not happy that they had to do so much extra to get the job.
u/Living-Big9138 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Which field is the most secure , to take a bootcamp for ?
Go with what you like don't work in 2024 .
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
SWE generalist is the most secure you can be. Which is a SWE who can work in any part of the stack on on any kind of problem.
I wouldn't worry about AI yet. AI is going to create a bunch of new kinds of jobs - which might be amazing for bootcamp grads. We're seeing Codesmith go heavily in this direction trying to push AI skills to students and encouraging them to take all kinds of "tangential" SWE jobs. Those are all one-off jobs right now, e.g. a Lawyer Prompt Engineer (definitely not something anyone going in would assume they would get), but in the future, these will be real entry level jobs to get into tech, and being a Generalist SWE will be the longer term thing you become over time.
u/g8rojas wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
saying work after a bootcamp is "extra" is part of the misleading language used in these conversation.
even at the peak of the market the worse bootcamps would say people need to work post graduation.
I won't say that all bootcamps are clear and transparent about the challe
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I totally agree that even in the good market people EXPECT to do extra work after graduating and good bootcamps prepared people for that.
What I'm talking about is people who do extra PAID stuff. Like interview prep, mock interviews, online course, mentorship circles, etc...
People who paid $20K for the bootcamp, then did 3 other programs after paying another $20K, don't attribute their job super strongly to the bootcamps (like they get SOME CREDIT! just we don't see those people posting on Reddit about how they finally got a job and their bootcamp was responsible).
I personally saw this way more often in the boom times of 2021. Right now it's so hard to get a job for bootcamp grads we're **declining** to work with post-bootcamp grads trying to get first job for 6 months and want more paid support.
u/Yourza wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
seems like the only bootcamps with good outcomes now are doing a combination of requiring significant pre-course with assessment, and then passing off the bootcamp as work experience on their resume
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Well this bootcamp is arguable the best one/top three, and if this data is accurate, it's whoing that no matter what they do, it's not giving you more than a coin flip chance at getting a job in a year after graduating.
That's not the right characterization because each individual has control over their actions and it's not a coin flip.
But assuming they let in amazing people in 2022 and just as amazing people in 2023. The ones in 2023 are getting jobs at a much slower rate, or not getting them at all yet.
u/g8rojas wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I am going to be brief and write my comments in context of the overall conversations in these threads the past N months. if you have not been keeping up with the past N months of info, this might not make sense to you.
In the recent past, the "top" coding bootcamps' students
u/michaelnovatireplied·
just for clarity: I meant "top" in terms of graduation rates + placement rates + outcomes, but it's subjective what bars are the "top" for these things. Like "world's best hamburger"
u/g8rojas wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
if your bootcamp is not providing: "interview prep, mock interviews, online course, mentorship circles"
you simply picked the wrong bootcamp.
as a student, you should not consider that to be "extra". I write that again, b/c the perspective may help you decide if this is somet
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Got long, TLDR: agree a bootcamp should do what it needs to to help you get your first job, including career services, but ultimately you are paying a bootcamp to teach out and not paying for a job and that has the following consequences.
-----
I have had super intense arguments with Codesmith people about this who adamently INSIST their lifetime mock interviews are amazing and any other service (like [Interviewing.io](http://Interviewing.io) or my company) are a waste of money.
There is a massive difference in a mock interview run like a real interview with a former Google engineer who has interviewed people on the job recently, than an alumni or teacher doing a mock interview and giving you feedback.
Notice I said "DIFFERENCE" and not that one is better or worse, both are good. The bootcamp should do what it does because it's super helpful to have multiple points of view and types of practice, but we saw a number of people coming to us who wanted different practice.
I don't want to come across like promoting my company, so this is bias, but I personally believe to get actual senior mock interviewers you have to either pay them well, or if they are doing it out of their personal desire to mentor - they need an exceptionally flexible schedule and a team of people (or product entirely built around this) handling their demands (cancellations, reschedulings, etc...) because these people are busy.
For example, [Interviewing.io](http://Interviewing.io) has fairly complex booking and reboking, and surge payouts and stock grants, and all kinds of complex concepts that I have not seen in a bootcamp's mock interviews.
Spending an hour working on a bug at Meta can have a ton of impact for a senior engineer versus running a mock interview, so creating a place for these people to do those is something very hard that I have not seen a bootcamp offer because a bootcamp is focused on teaching people, not mock interviews.
This is why these services that offer it are so expensive and still have layoffs and slowdowns themselves!
u/Weekly_Roll_4857 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Let's be realistic. Things are not as bad as one might think. You don't have all the data needed to provide accurate numbers. For example, do you have information about how serious the graduates are in their job search? Are they actively applying and networking? Launch School's m
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Yeah I mean the number of alumni in 2023 vs 2022 is about the same and I expect 2024 to have like 1/4 of the number of alumni and they are more "ready" for the process mentally speaking. I don't know if that means they'll get more jobs.
I know Codesmith for example, people are starting to tangential jobs and be celebrated for it. Like customer support engineering roles, whereas historically people got SWE roles and all they talked about was mid level SWE.
u/cglee wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
mmm... I don't think 2024 will exceed 2022. We'll see how it matches up with 2023.
It's very tough right now, there's no sugar coating it. But I don't necessarily think a degree is the answer, either. It's also very tough for CS grads.
We don't need to doom and gloom too much
u/michaelnovatireplied·
+1 CS grads are having trouble too and it's not the single answer
u/ludofourrage wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
u/michaelnovati I don't understand the purpose of this particular post, and question its motivation. You share no data which means we can't verify your analysis or your statements, and it ends up creating FUD. You have a great reputation on this channel for good reasons, but this
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
1. As I told you privately before this post, I had our team check and we do not bid on any keywords containing the word "bootcamp" other than "formation bootcamp", and none of our Google ads say we are a bootcamp.
2. As I'm sure people here will attest, we flat out automatically reject people who don't have a year of SWE WORK experience since mid 2023. So a struggling bootcamp grad will not be a candidate for Formation right now.
3. I openly acknowledged my conflicts transparently. The individuals whose close allies have informed me lurk this sub anonymously and manipulate by engaging under the radar are who you should be going after if you care about conflicts and integrity.
u/Weird_Ride213 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
🚩🚩 So many red flags. This piece is essentially a hit job on this bootcamp while doubling as an advertisement for Michael’s own company.🚩🚩🚩
1) How does a moderator and competing business owner have access to all student job offers from a separate company? Michael isn't a s
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
1. We're not competing with any bootcamps at this time and have repeatedly told you that. I've given you the objective correct answer from the source of truth and you keep spreading the same false narrative. If you do not have a year of SWE work experience you will be auto rejected. If you have under 2, you will likely be rejected but can have a conversation about. If you are special case, we might admit you under a year, but I can count those people on one hand in the past year.
We might compete with bootcamps in the future, but have no plans to anytime soon and it would require a large investment and changes on our part.
2. I explained how we advertise on Reddit and that we target all the top programming subs and we have re-targeting ads anywhere. So people who engage with Formation will see us everywhere, not just here.
3. You don't have any right to say who I am and why I do what I do.
State things as opinions and facts. You can have whatever opinion you want about me but don't spread misinformation as fact.
u/ludofourrage wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Stands for "Fear Doubt Uncertainty"
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Are you saying that I'm not accurately describing the job market right now?
And you are saying that my narrative around the terrible and negative market is intentionally a lie to manipulate people?
u/Weird_Ride213 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Facts are determined by actions, not just individual perspectives. What we say is inherently subjective, including my own views. That's why people judge based on the sum of one's actions.
I've observed, along with many others, a clear dissonance between your role as a supposed "
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
FACT: I stated this for the public record: I asked the team and we do not and have not as far as they are aware, bid on any Google search keywords containing the word "bootcamp", other than "formation bootcamp" (as we bid on many phrases containing formation as it's a Beyonce song and common term)
I don't know all of the job offer details people are getting no, but if it was shared to the public intentionally I would see no problem using it in theory. But no, I don't know all of the job offer details.
I key part of this analysis is that CIRR 2022 data is out, so if I run a less perfect analysis on 2022 data and compare to CIRR, I can do the same analysis on 2023 data and adjust the output based on that + other factors (like that 2023 cohorts were on average smaller according to the public record, APPROX: 30ish H1 2023 and high 20s in H2 2023.)
I'm allowed to pay attention to details, observe, and aggregate...
But that said, Codesmith does share a lot of stuff in general that I don't really know why. A couple of staff have complained to me about concerning data governance, password sharing, codebase sharing, etc... and you have to ask them, but in my opinion, those attitudes show a lack of care for sensitive information, e.g. the CEO using his personal email address for work stuff.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Reddit removed your post I think, wasn't me and not sure if my reply will go through, but I'm replying anyways:
1. 100% agree one of the things that comes with being open is that you should be reasonably questioned and that's the critical part to being open. On the other hand, it's not open seasons to anonymously attack me (which you aren't doing Ludo and you aren't anonymous, but others have over the years).
2. I don't know what to say, I logged into our Google Ads account and spent time to confirm myself and the only keyword we are targeting with the word bootcamp in it is "formation bootcamp" and it had 0.2% of all impressions compared to all of our keywords. Google Ads use all kinds of algorithms to display you ads and we are not targeting any other terms with "bootcamp" in it and most of the impressions are for variations of "interview prep".
If you don't think I'm lying on the record then not believing this is personally attacking my personally credibility yeah.
I don't know enough about Google Ads to comment why YOU are seeing that but it can be a ton of reasons related to YOU and not anything we're doing. Like it could be a retargeting ad because YOU search for bootcamps and formation often together.
3. The market is bouncing back for experienced engineers, but it remains competitive and tough. Do you have a source on the entry level market bouncing back?
u/ludofourrage wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
When browsing in Private mode, I can see that my comment was deleted by a Moderator. Not Reddit. Why is that?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I can't share screenshots in comments but it says "Removed by Reddit" to me and it doesn't say a reason.
Maybe a "Reddit Moderator"?
I didn't report it either so I would GUESS AI doesn't like it.
Similar to Google Ads, sometimes we can't explain the AI lol
u/michaelnovatireplied·
This comment was also removed with the same message "Removed by Reddit"
I believe you are seeing that, Reddit has a ton of consistency issues across old vs new
u/michaelnovatireplied·
It's called Crowd Control and it's an automated Reddit tool working effectively at hiding low engaged accounts that show up in the sub.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
This is correct. When I talk about other programs there are very short threads. When I talk about Codesmith people come out of nowhere and we have these endless back and forths
The Codesmith comments are very dense on Codesmith posts and comments and it has to do both with my frequent commentary about Codesmith AND the amount of back and forth that happens when I talk about them.
u/SimilarGlass5 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Says removed by moderator to me. Only one mod posting in this thread. How curious.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I started a mod thread about this and was encouraged to ban all of you, which I'm not doing because I think that's wrong.
But seriously get it together and stop making stuff up, just ask and believe my answers or discuss them without making false accusations. If you don't trust me and I'm a moderator and you don't like this place, leave and go spend your time more effectively elsewhere.
I got banned from the Codesmith sub, from Codesmith CSX Slack, permanently banned from all Codesmith events, for pointing out an alumni placement they were highlight is no longer employed at the company they said he was.
Not all communities are for everyone and if this one isn't for you, you can leave!
u/ludofourrage wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
what was the reasoning for banning all of us? Also it could help if you could confirm the "no link to screenshots" rule, if that's something you have access to.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
The only setting I see (there are far too many settings and Reddit is working on improving moderator tools) is the spam filter aggressiveness on "links" is set to high (which is the Reddit default). There's no granular setting I see about links to images.
They rely heavily on AI to moderate and a lot of stuff is flagged. For example some of the other people were flagged as "harassment" so the AI is determining sentiment and more now.