u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah that's fair, will consider as feedback for future posts.
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CMU school of computer science have launched Coding Bootcamp ? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
This looks like it's offered through TechSpring, so I would look into them more before giving too much credit for having the CMU name on it.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Hi, unlike in your sub, I'm not going to ban you and delete this for "lies" because I want to try to get more on the same page. Feel free to DM me if you want to talk more because this comment is making me really sad the way you are characterizing what I'm saying and we're on very different pages.
1. I'm sorry Andrea feels that way. I honestly have no idea who she is, other than that she's a moderator of the sub and I apologize if she felt attacked by that statement.
I do stand by the statement, that it was shared as the official rules and the entire body is written as "we". I have documented the post for myt archived and think that a reasonable person would interpret this the way I did. If she didn't mean to post on behalf of Codesmith, she can edit the post to clarify that as well. I'll also edit my copy to remove references to that post to help reset that.
2. A number of people who…
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
This is a totally fair comment so it wouldn't deleted and you shouldn't feel that way. I think it's an excellent comment with a tone open for discussion, I wish more of them were like this!
1. Codesmith's co-founder Alex Zai, told me to clear the record that he is not currently involved in the AI curriculum and hasn't been since DSML shutdown, and specifically that Zoox is not involved in any way in the curriculum either nor has he worked on since working at Zoox.
He told me that he asked Codesmith to not represent that he is working on this currciulum.
I don't have an analogy for you but maybe it's like Juliard saying they have a brand new course created by Adam Driver, when Adam Driver created some materials years ago when he was TA'ing and those materials were used inside of this new course.
I think that's wrong.
2. My data is showing about 45% of people in H1 2023 getting jobs…
⚠️ WARNING: This post tries to add value to this community · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
There are a wide range of content violations here and there are no specific written rules covering all of them.
MY PERSONAL EXAMPLES:
1. Generic posts about topics that share links back to blog posts or such. Typically these are sharing in a ton of communities at once and get flagged as spam.
2. Ads or marketing for a paid product. This is a gray area, depending on the user posting it and what the content is. For example, if it's a free event being shared, that's generally allowed. If it's like something that would be a Google Ads it's not. Similar to 1. bad actors tend to spam a ton of communities from new accounts.
3. Copy-paste blog posts. Kind of like SEO for Reddit I guess, like generic content being posted by a company directly that has no clear purpose stated and is trying to build SEO back to the company's site. I could see a world where this is fine, but if it's spammy no
4…
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I'm answering the person's question like any other comment. This is what I consider a conflict. If you want this place to be more positive look in the mirror first and then spread your positivity to others.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
These are all good questions I'm more than happy to answer.
First, why do we have the average compensation increase and not the average.
we're working with people coming from all kinds of backgrounds and situations and we think the best way to capture their outcome is to show the change relative to where they started.
otherwise we would have to try to bucket people into a bunch of very granular buckets of similar type people and then show some average about how they did in absolute terms. We could try to do that but the buckets change constantly and the people we are working with now are very experienced. the people we worked with a year ago had maybe 1 to 2 years of experience on average and now the people have 5 to 10 years of experience on average. So because these buckets are moving and changing all the time, we don't feel that showing those. give you a pulse for how things are d…
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Maybe I'm taking it too literally, but in the exact same font size and UI formatting we have the average outcome right beside the number you're talking about. So to me not acknowledging that fact and stating that
>"I said it was deceptive marketing to show one huge salary number on your companys homepage instead of average results"
Now there could be misunderstandings, or we're not on the same page, but I've said this a number of times and you've said the same thing a number of times - which is why that starts to become harassment.
Do you have more questions about these numbers we can sort out if it's a misunderstanding and not harassment?
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
This sub doesn't have explicitly clear rules so there is subjectivity in their interpretation. I often message the mod thread to discuss things I'm not sure about.
DMs are not required no, I'm suggesting it as a tool when there is conflict becuase it can help for both sides to see where each other is coming from.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I said that I repeatedly clarified things about my company that you did not acknowledge and kept saying the same things, which to me is analogous if someone says "stop doing X, it's bothering me" and you ignore them and keep doing it.
I sent those posts directly to the other mods and told them to examine them because I'm biased. They have yet to approve them...
⚠️ WARNING: This post tries to add value to this community · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Congrats, like that's more productive to talk about who we are and why we are here and what we do imo
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I've received a ton of screenshots and texts over the years and I still don't have a good picture. I think it's a combination of the folllowing:
1. Primarily - alumni are the product Codesmith (i.e. the community IS the product, not the education) makes and the ones most bought in where the product works they protect Codesmith fervently.
2. Leaders share around some of my post and ask people or imply they should 'help out the community'. Or calling me a 'jealous hater', or that 'when you are the best people always want to take you down', stuff like that.
⚠️ WARNING: This post tries to add value to this community · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
You've worked in industry for 20 years. Can you disclose more about who you are (without DOX'ing) and what your agenda is for being here?
As a mod I see dozens of posts a week similar to this, that make a general point and then link to some kind of course. Now those posts are people's personal courses, or bootcamps links or affiliate links.
You're posting a Microsoft course, so for all I know you work or workeded at Microsoft.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
"I'd rather that then spend hours discussing some beef a keyboard warrior has with some random company"
I'm genuinely not here for hours, this is like priority 10 on my list
I felt personally attacked when you said that.
Maybe you can DM me and we can talk about this and you can see where I'm coming from? You're making a false connection that I have this been to promoted my company. It's just not true. I can see how you might see that if you just look up backgrounds, but without talking to me about it, it's not helping move things forward to the better community you are asking for.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
This is what I do all day: [https://github.com/mnovati](https://github.com/mnovati)
I have 25 contributions in the last two days, and that's where I spend my time. I'm not on Reddit nearly as much as you think.
Warning on personal attacks.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Hey, it's taking people closer to a year right now, and even then it's a coin flip. Was that communicated to you by anyone?
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Again, if you were in the Codesmith subreddit you would get banned and deleted, and all you would see are positive comments supporting me.
If you ignore me and don't discuss, you will be banned.
Do you think that world would be better, if all the negative comments (whether they support me or not) are deleted and the authors re banned?
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
The history is that I was made a mod because it was becoming a cease pool of spam and negativity and I was tasked with improving it.
1. If you weren't here before then please explain how it got that way before I was a mod?
2. In the spirit of transparency, what's your agenda for being here if you 20 years of industry experience?
The fact that you calling this out without even talking to me has the same pattern as the Codesmith people
Funniest/Expected Crashout - App Academy · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah lower admissions across the board.
Funniest/Expected Crashout - App Academy · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Do you have insights into placements year over year? I expect them to be worse, just like every other bootcamps that I've seen some signal from, but I don't have any signal on App Academy,
u/michaelnovati replied · DELETED · archived copy
This post has been flagged for heavy voting manipulation. Please be careful, read the contents and judge for yourself. Stay safe out there!
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Was this shared there? What to people think of the arguments?
I don't expect people to like me, but still waiting for someone to point out what's incorrect about my analysis.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Your post went from +8 to -3 in 10 minutes... :(
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I saw a video once of Will Sentance from 7-8 years ago where he had almost the exact same language. I think it's one of those things that if you tell yourself the same thing for 8 years you believe it.
Either it's incompetence at not understanding the levels and confidently calling 61 senior - even though the speaker herself says 61 is "mid-level", or it's intentional manipulation. I don't think the CEO is incompetent, so...
And yeah, the talk was awesome, the alumni is awesome, it's sad she's being used for marketing in this way, she deserves better.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I think all three of those programs mentioned are very different and can co-exist rather than fight. Rithm is very small right now and I don't think they are fighting anybody haha. Launch School is heavily run by the founder Chris and is also small and capped size, and I think they will get by.
Right now, from my estimates (no hard numbers) Codesmith is about the enrollment numbers of Launch School (maybe 1.5X larger because of part time) but from my estimates has 5X more full time staff. So I'm most concerned about Codesmith surviving without more layoffs or without a major pivot.
Codesmith is the only one going big on AI, however there isn't any signal from the industry what AI skills they want, and interview processes haven't adapted to test for AI skills either, so they might be betting on 'Web3 blockhain' like Lambda School did. It's entirely possible that the AI skills companies…
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I'm happy you have the right to express your complaints, if you posted this in Codesmith sub you would get permanently banned and no one would be able to read it.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I agree that for profit business are companies and they have to make money, and they can make money in a win-win way that improves the overall economy and people's lives, but that marketing isn't something bad or evil or despicable, it's normal.
I have the same advice with reading any bootcamps outcomes. I'm very on top of TripleTen because their stats are carefully worded too (and also not lying or false, just worded well by a marketer).
We need people having reasonable and thoughtful discussions about these things openly to move the industry forward.
The bootcamp industry is barely surviving right now and using marketing to convince more people to join to keep it alive isn't going to solve the systemic market problems that are stopping bootcamp grads.
I've said this once or twice now but Codesmith might have a good angle with getting people into non-SWE technical jobs, or with leve…
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I don't think I am at all whatsoever, but whether I was or not, it doesn't mean I'm wrong.
A lot of Codesmith people love me and lot hate me and I try to build bridges with those that don't like me because we can do far more working together positively than apart.
But in a world of Lambda School have a lot of problems, you all need rational and reasonable looks at bootcamps - the GOOD and the BAD and not only look at the good. People are making huge life decisions and spending a ton of money on these things.
I've said this before but I posted a report about Launch School and no one cared because it was super boring. Codesmith stuff turns into mega discussions with anonymous accounts coming out of nowhere.
u/michaelnovati posted · ★ FEATURED
⚠️ WARNING: Codesmith subreddit is mostly propaganda (resharing Codesmith content without full context and boosting with positive comments from accounts that mostly post about Codesmith only). Challenges and negative comments are called "lies" and you get banned. BE SMART AND THINK CRITICALLY.
NOTE: I'm not saying the content itself isn't true or that it's bad intentioned, but I am saying that it's marketing material that missing context and it's likely the people sharing it don't even realize this. I've accumulated a lot of information over the years and while I see a **A LOT OF GOOD THINGS CODESMITH IS DOING,** the outcomes have changed dramatically in 2023-2024 and these materials are not reflecting that.
**DISCLAIMER: these are my personal opinions using publicly available information and my own insights.**
**MODERATOR NOTE: any comments talking about my own company will be delete…
Line by Line Rebuttal to Codesmith CEO dodging question about placement rates in a challenging market · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I can connect you with some of the people to find out. $2.5K a month is by far the most expensive option and most people choose a package (you can see more options in post-application stage) but the pricing is meant to be a range of pricing for a very very wide range of circumstances. If you are time sensitive you are looking at different options than if you want unlimited support. And if you want unlimited support you can balance between paying all upfront and paying half based on how much we increase your salary.
We're far from perfect but we're working hard to support engineers and we feel we have a good product and experience and we make hundreds of changes every week to adjust to the market and to improve the experience based on feedback.
The main reason though is if you are a senior engineer and super busy, you can just dial into Formation based on your schedule dynamically every…
Line by Line Rebuttal to Codesmith CEO dodging question about placement rates in a challenging market · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
No one should be choosing Formation over a bootcamp at all.
a
We work with people to support their goals. Right now we have observed very clearly that there is no systematic way for people with no experience to get jobs and we therefore don't take new people with no experience. We still have people with us with under a year of experience for 1.5ish years because of our indefinite support promise.
We had three ex Facebook senior engineers start recently, current Google Manager, like these are not people considering Codesmith, Hack Reactor, Springboard, etc...
Or are you saying they are? That a staff engineer at Meta is choosing between Codesmith and Formation? They are choosing between Interview Kickstart and Formation.
I don't really know how to explain this more clearly, but I'll keep trying because I don't want anyone coming to us for the wrong thing, it's a waste of everyone's tim…
Line by Line Rebuttal to Codesmith CEO dodging question about placement rates in a challenging market · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
There's a difference between saying "my opinion is that the numbers on your website are deceptive" and "your numbers are deceptive"
unless a person currently contains evidence that the numbers are illegally deceptive then one of these statements is an opinion that is totally fine and the other is libel.
Those comments were deleted because the person is personally attacking in the comments and was previously warned. In my opinion, it's the equivalent of misgendering someone intentionally or calling someone a nickname they asked you to not call them. I flagged this to the other moderators in case they have different opinions and want to allow them.
Is app academy actually a legit program or nah? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Their founder and CEO stepped down recently and was replaced with a Lambda Schools former executive that helps make Lambda School more efficient.
I have zero info here and just personal opinion, but they might be trying to make App Academy a more stable and profitable and then selling it when it is.
With all the bootcamps laying people off and slowing down, I can't imagine how App Academy is positioned to differentiate from other bootcamps right now.
But people are people and lets give them a chance to see what they can do and give the new CEO a chance to express her vision.
Line by Line Rebuttal to Codesmith CEO dodging question about placement rates in a challenging market · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Here are the most recent placement submission, in order unedited that I grabbed, and redacted tiny companies. Our outcomes are incredibly strong. The time it takes to get them is very long.
Meta
\[REDACTED STARTUP\]
Amazon
Meta
Atlassian
Paylocity
Disney
\[REDACTED STARTUP\]
Netflix
Gusto
Amazon
Western Union
Meta
Microsoft
Microsoft
Willow
\[REDACTED STARTUP\]
Reddit
\[REDACTED STARTUP\]
Microsoft
Strider Technologies
NVIDIA
Meta
The wrong question everyone asks about bootcamps. · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
In this market (well really ANY time) people shouldn't go to a bootcamp expecting to get a job. They are paying for INSTRUCTORS TIME (teaching, making curriculum), etc... and some of the fees might go to career services.
If you want a job really bad and want to do a bootcamp, you need to spend all your money just on the job piece by hiring people to help you 100% with that (or do it yourself for free with other help).
People don't berate Stanford if they expected 5 $150K offers on graduation date and didn't get them. They are paying for those expensive teachers and BEAUTIFUL BUILDINGS.
Line by Line Rebuttal to Codesmith CEO dodging question about placement rates in a challenging market · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I have conversations with a number of bootcamp staff and leaders from many places because I have a presence in the industry.
Both as a leader of this subreddit, as one of the former top engineers at Meta, as someone who works with bootcamp grads from all the programs later on in their careers.
If someone was talking about me or my company, I would have engaged them on the first message to talk about it and understand each other's point of view. If the person refused to talk to me and kept going, then I would call them out and ask why.
Build bridges not walls.
Line by Line Rebuttal to Codesmith CEO dodging question about placement rates in a challenging market · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I can't speak for people, the vast majority start of with: 'I'm a codesmith grad/alumni/etc... and I really appreciate you presenting things as they are. I don't agree with some of the advice and I'm majorly struggling and I feel like Codesmith isn't helping if I don't follow the norms, can you help'
And then I try genuinely hard to advise and help the people and get into conversations.
Line by Line Rebuttal to Codesmith CEO dodging question about placement rates in a challenging market · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
It's mostly alumni and not employees, there aren't many people left and they are busy some I've talked to are working on new jobs and not 100% drinking the koolaid.
Line by Line Rebuttal to Codesmith CEO dodging question about placement rates in a challenging market · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Imagine I was an anonymous account that posted this.
If you understand Formation really well, please suggest the outcomes we should be presenting and how we should handle the situations I explained above, as I explained above, we haven't figured it out it yet and that's why I'm open to engaging with people to talk about it. Instead of Will's attitude of ban and ignore. He hasn't ONCE contacted me directly to explain ANYTHING.
Downvoting without understanding doesn't make people right.
Line by Line Rebuttal to Codesmith CEO dodging question about placement rates in a challenging market · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah and my monitoring and tools are showing manipulation. A Codesmith employee was given a warning because of that and all of their accounts are at risk of being banned.
Line by Line Rebuttal to Codesmith CEO dodging question about placement rates in a challenging market · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
So Codesmith genuinely has good intentions, and they do some things incredibly well. They do a lot of things not very well. That's reasonable, no company is perfect.
I believe in every number Codesmith presents is trying to be accurate, while also being marketing and that is maybe a similarity to Lambda School. Austen presenting what he felt was accurate information spun in very interesting ways - ex. 100% of cohort placed with very small sample size (not revealing sample size of 1)
Ultimately it comes down to outcomes. If you have good material to work with, and spin the marketing positively, then you have success. If you don't have good outcomes and spin the marketing, you end up potentially with problems and people being mislead.
Codesmith continues to have good outcomes relative to it's peers in the bootcamp industry, however the elephant in the room is that the INDUSTRY is doing…
Line by Line Rebuttal to Codesmith CEO dodging question about placement rates in a challenging market · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati posted · · edited ★ FEATURED
Line by Line Rebuttal to Codesmith CEO dodging question about placement rates in a challenging market
**DISCLAIMER: these views are my personal opinions as I see them and they don't represent anyone but me.**
u/WillSen If you call yourself the best of the best, you need to hold yourself to that bar and respect others who are holding you to that bar too by responding with facts and arguments to every challenge rather than ban people who point out things you don't want to answer. I'm unable to reply in the Codesmith subreddit because I'm permanently banned.
Anyways, someone asked the Codesmith CEO in an AMA today [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/codesmith/comments/1dofj3a/comment/la9fv9w/)
>There has been a large share of skepticism towards the results that Codesmith claims to produce with job acquisition rates, salaries, etc. since the company does not share its raw data, e.g., claimin…
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah the program is about a month in :(
Futurecode NYC x Codesmith program · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
1. What documentation is required for "Limited or no prior experience with the basics of coding and no paid professional web development, software engineering, or similar experience"?
If someone is lying to you and the city but went to a bootcamp and has an extensive portfolio, will they be allowed in?
2. Did the City of New York sign off on having people publicly post personal creative pieces to an unofficial non-Codesmith controlled sub-reddit?
Your CEO made it sound like this is part of the application that is required: "I also want to shout out the amazing creative applications I’m seeing for Future Code on the sub."https://www.reddit.com/r/codesmith/comments/1dnmohm/comment/la3kxr7/
Fast Crimes as Lambda School · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
That was the dream yeah, but when people get tech-adjacent jobs it gets blurry and subjective. The job title alone isn't enough, and a bank (who manages the ISA) isn't qualified to decide either. So you end up with a bunch of upset people trying to make a case their jobs were not "SWE-related".
I don't think any modern ISA has this term because modern ISAs are structured more like loans and often called such.
But ISAs still don't have any universal format so it's ultimately a contract between two people and you have to treat it as such.
I'm Nick Kolakowski, Senior Editor at Dice. AMA about the tech job market, AI, and more! · r/cscareerquestions
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Can you share any trends your seeing with bootcamp grads? A number of bootcamps have been shrinking or closing down in the past year and the market is clearly not good, but I'm curious if you are seeing any trends on your side.
Do I need a degree in software engineering to work in Japan? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I know an ex-pat who did Le Wagon in Tokyo, followed by a bunch of other things, then an apprenticeship and then eventually got a job as a SWE without a degree at a top Japanese tech company.
But I'm not sure!
Fast Crimes as Lambda School · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
It's a bit unfortunate that some bootcamps employ similar strategies but try to legitimize them even more now. Lambda School was first and then others learned from their mistakes.
1. CIRR as a marketing tool to legitimize results. But still lack of transparency - schools have a full year of data on H1 2023 grads and CIRR schools won't let us know that data until March 2025 and continue to tout 2022 numbers.
2. Hiring back alumni as "senior software engineers" and legitimizing those roles proactively as a prestigious position instead of a job you take because you couldn't get a SWE job yet after graduating.
3. Calling non-SWE roles highly desirable "modern engineering" roles instead of backup options for not getting SWE jobs.
Futurecode NYC x Codesmith program · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · DELETED · archived copy
Can you DM me? I want to help
Boot campers from 2020-2023, how are work options for you now? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah that timing seems pretty good. They have a free version for NYC residents if you apply in the next week or so.
I've stopped recommending going there as of a week or two ago, especially if you don't have a professional mathy/engineeringy background or prior experience to spin into tangential experience.
Otherwise if you are happy spending $20K to build some basics and then take a tangential role at a fashion related tech company, I could see that as a reasonable goal in general.