Yeah a lot of this was manufactured by Codesmith and insider alumni itself. I know some of those people and it's very obvious that they all disappeared from this sub when they realized what was going on.
A dozen or so pro Codesmith against were permanently suspended recently as well (including two mods of their sub) so people with less honorable intentions that stick around are gone.
Now all you get is the reality of things and hopefully future people will see that.
Jeez sorry to hear that you were a sales engineer and still cant make it work.
Can you elaborate for everyone what it means to talk about your open source product as real work experience?
I'm super familiar with it, but I think it's useful for general people to hear what that means because it's a little surprising to a lot of people I talk to.
1. Yes, if you join the Unlimited option we will work with you for however long it takes and you aren't forced to take your first offer. So as long as you keep job hunting, applying, interviewing, and accepting our feedback and guidance (and don't have to withdraw for personal reasons, unexpected emergencies, or change your goal and don't what to job hunt anymore) then we keep supporting you. We have some people with us for two years and counting haha. We don't have strict requirements to meet to maintain this either. We have a two way trusting relationship and as long as you are continuously intending to job hunt we do our part. We don't hand you a job though and it's not a place to sign up expected to be handed interviews and a job on a plate.
2. Yeah sounds like you've read my views on this. It makes a lot more sense when you do Formation and see how individually unique each person's…
I'm the co-founder of Formation so I'm really biased.
I would say that none of these are boot camps, so the perspective you get from here is probably skewed to boot camp grads that then went to some of these programs. Which could be really useful if you're also a boot camp grad but less useful if you're not.
All of these are really different.
Outco, I got the vibe was shutting down or isn't really running because you can't apply on their website and their founders seem to have moved on and there's been a number of people being threatened to be sued by them who didn't get jobs within 12 months. I haven't heard firsthand from the company directly so I can't say anything definitively but I'm not really considering them right now when I talk about competitors.
Pathrise, they publish some annual stats and the number of people who go there as a software engineer is has been decreasing s…
Codesmith kind of pushes you out the door and alumni and older alumni kind of use their ambitiousness to hustle into a job. Leaders aren't super involved in individual people's job hunts.
Launch School's Founder personally gets involved in people's job hunts and tries to use his network to hustle you into a job. This is impossible to scale, so keeping Launch School small makes this possible.
Yeah they have been working on shifting the narrative. I think they are close but the things you pointed out are crushing deal breakers.
You won't be irreplaceable by doing 5 lectures in AI.... anyone else can do that. I can do that, you can do that and next week we are irreplaceable.
You can't be irreplaceable in 12 weeks for $22K or else anyone else can be irreplaceable in 12 weeks.
I like your idea of a 10 month or longer approach.... you became irreplaceable with time, and you can accelerate a little bit with good direction and advice.
Codesmith Immersive and Launch School Capstone have relatively similar formats. Focused on a delivering a big group project and leveraging that as internship-like experience.
Launch School is also working on setting up mini internships and contributions to giant open source projects like Firefox and is leagues ahead of Codesmith right now!
Hi, yeah off topic but I can answer:
- we take data engineers and data scientists but with SEVERE WARNINGS. We don't do any data-specific preparation or practice, so those people come to us for DS&A and System Design, networking, resume stuff, negotiation, etc... and not for any data specific stuff. At the FAANG-level companies the data loops are fairly similar to SWE with 1 or 2 unique interviews that we don't prep for, so some people think it's worth it. We strongly don't advise it though and these people tend to think hard about and come back to us on their own.
- we take people on different visas case by case, depends on the visa and the amount of time before it expires. Generally existing H1B is ok, TN (Canada/Mexico) is ok, F1+OPT with 2+ years left and a backup plan is generally ok.
Hi, thanks for sharing, I've heard similar things. Interestingly, Codesmith isolates each cohort so it's actually fairly hard to figure out how others are doing. People know their own cohort and the ones before and after who they interact with as junior/seniors.
Do you have any comments on how Codesmith staff have communicated to you? Like if they have told you it's not good or there, or they say things are fine instead?
But yeah, the 6 month placement rate for end of 2023 and early 2024 grads has tanked and Codesmith isn't saying a word - instead they are saying things that make it sound like everything is fine and Codesmith is doing great.
Launch School transparently had a 75% 6 month placement rate and because of Codesmith delusion above I've actively recommended not going there and actively recommended Launch School.
Anyways, if others in your cohort feel the same, share this pos…
Yeah for $59 it's a great way to test things out for sure! I'm speaking more at a company strategy level and zoomed out view. I'm on a remote cruise right now and my analogy would be watching all the cruise ships big and small come in and out of the harbor from a top a nearby mountain and trying to gauge where everyone is going. Is the ship sunk? About to collide with an iceberg and just won't move out of the way? Or seems to be doing everything right.
My view on Codesmith is that it's hit the iceberg and stubbornly not acknowledging it. But I might be wrong and they can try to change and do a 180, the CEO could step down, they could sell off, merge, or maybe they find a way to creatively keep the ship floating (e.g. Future Code) and then after reasoning their footings, make changes to avoid the iceberg in the future.
If this are at the CSPrep phase then consider all your free and chea…
I think they have far too much price to drop tuition. I expect them to raise it again in January like they did this year despite tanking placements and outcomes.
If anything they will start to give out "scholarships" to effectively lower the cost but maintain a high sticker price.
Following the ivy League model. Stanford is $60K a year but most people (who don't come from rich families) pay much less or nothing.
So taking a step back....
Codesmith, like Launch School, is for a certain person. There aren't magically more of those people in the world who just aren't going because of the cost. If it's the right program, the cost is irrelevant because the long term impact will be so much more than anything.
So lowering the cost won't do anything at all.
If they relied on anyone with a pulse paying them whatever spare change they have, then lowering the price would result in more people…
I absolutely think you should do many different things that are free because personally I found that you often have to do the same thing a couple times for it to click and to get the ball rolling. and there's also different styles at different times and there isn't just one thing that works the best for everyone. it's one of the most frustrating things about this subreddit is that people are looking for an objective single answer when they're often isn't one.
They said their 6 month 2023 placement rate was 75%. Historically it has been 100% so they consider this a concern. But my view in this market is that it's fantastic.
The 6 month Codesmith rate for end of 2023 grads that I tried to calculate with unofficial sources was about 20% for comparison.
It's hard to say. Tax credits mean you were paying the taxes to begin with so they eat into profits more than they do to practical impact (for super high profit companies). As long as Wall Street adjusts their modelling and the companies remain insanely profitable, things should be fine.
But companies that are smaller and rely on the credits might hold back and I don't know what that will mean for them.... maybe the Reich get richer and jobs concentrate at FAANGs?
I have the structure already haha but was more curious how you perceived the support. More generally speaking do you feel like the staff ratio is good. Do you have access to a wide range of help and different opinions and points of view on demand?
The slow path is to get a job using your existing degree that is at a big tech company and use internal resources to transition over the course of a few years.
I've seen some people do this and it's worked out extremely well.
1. You learn along the way
2. You get a good salary and benefits
3. You have a ton of context to help add value in a transition while you ramp up on technical
4. Some companies pay for masters
5. Many companies have internal engineering training you can try to participate in.
Now if you can't get a job at a top tech company, try to find something that hits on some of these.
Like maybe finding a job at a company that will pay for your masters.
Or finding a non tech job at a tech company that has zero chance at ever becoming an engineering job
I was doing some math on Future Code and it's possible that the program will give them a significant profit to survive for a bit longer. Need more details about how much they are paid from the city.
I'm sure surviving because of a philanthropic program from the city of New York makes you feel even better haha.
Anyways, thanks for sharing. A number of former employees have contacted me over the years. Many to apologize for their leadership's internal behavior calling me out and dismissing me internally when they feel like they agree with what I say. Codesmith tells these people I'm a jealous competitor.
I do what I do because former employees like this appreciate me for being real and wish they could too without violating their NDAs.
I feel bad for current employees who still believe their story and tow the line and it's why I generally have patience with them.
One more question? How much interaction do you have with Codesmith staff.
I was running the unit economy of the program. If Codesmith has two dedicated instructors and one program coordinator for 6 months, that's about $200K. If they have a fraction of other people's time for outcomes, program coordination, grading etc... that's another 100K.
So if the program costs Codesmith $300K, I'm curious if this is a philanthropic program if the city of New York would pay $900K for everyone's tuition to enroll in Codesmith.
Seems kind of weird if Codesmith profits a huge amount from the program to subsidize its other programs.... like the City of New York shouldn't be keeping the lights on haha.
So just curious if you can list out the staff jobs (NOT PEOPLES NAMES) you work with in the program to do the math.
Thanks for the update!
Do you have a sense of how important job hunting is going to be yet? or an emphasis on preparing to get a job at the end and references to that?
Also just want to confirm you haven't started working on the OSP project right? I want to make sure in the end people don't list 6 months of work experience on their OSP when it wasn't close to that haha. Codesmith normally advise to put the entire time at Codesmith for their OSP on their resume.
Your time is money so something free isn't necessarily free.
For example. Free program that doesn't do anything vs pay $10K and get a job. The $10K option will pay itself back and more.
CS degree from a top 10 university is still reproducing placed graduates.
A top 30 is generally so too but a couple people have difficulty.
After that I would say no, a CS degree isn't reproducible producing placed grads right now.
The difference being that 4 years of school you learn a lot, even if you need more to get a job. What you learn can be applied in other fields.
A 12 week bootcamp, you don't really learn anything useful in your career. You are purely trying to make yourself appear marketable to squeeze into a job.
Launch School is experimenting with Launch School Core Live, which is entirely free and might have prompted Codesmith to discount CSPrep.
Launch School works well for specific people, just like Codesmith still works for a dwindling number of specific people.
The main advantage Launch School has if it's smaller. They run 4 cohorts a year or so, and then the founder is more directly involved in the day to day, keeping costs way down. As a result they have a decent placement rate in this market.
So I am recommending Launch School but only if it's the right place for you and you can explore their free options to try to figure that out.
I have to be fair, both to sleep at night for my own values, and because I have a following on here that expects me to be fair and reasonable.
I don't know Will Sentance and why he does what he does. But the sad thing is that we're approaching scam or incompetence. One is illegal, and one is career ending. So even with the benefit of the doubt, I don't think I'm being too kind here.
I do believe though deep in my heart that everyone at Codesmith would like nothing more than to see their grads succeed in incredible jobs and I stand by that too.
I have zero formal relationship with Launch School (I have occasional chats with the Founder) but they seem to be telling people how it is at least.
Another top bootcamp Rithm School shut down because of the market.
Numerous new warning flags at Codesmith. Concerned they are grasping at straws (Personal Opinion)
Hi all, over the years I've developed a decent sense of the bootcamp industry from both the inside and the outside. For better or worse I have developed quite the insight into Codesmith. As one of the more controversial bootcamps (known in the boom-times for placing people with $137K median salaries who will fight to the bitten end for Codesmith, with others who aren't buying the 'Codesmith way' on the opposite side. "Polarizing" is a good word and the most innovating things in the world are polarizing.
Over the past month I've been pretty quiet as a number of current and former students and staff have contacted me to chat about things and shared their views.
I've organized this post into clear sections.
Just a disclaimer, I'm a moderator of this sub and I supported my founder in startin…
It sounds like you are familiar with my content, if not I can elaborate more.
Bootcamp grads that succeed are non-reproducible cases. That doesn't mean that a bootcamp can't help people succeed, it just means there isn't a machine in place that can on average take in person A and produce successful engineer B.
On a case by case basis you might observe a lot of things and patterns locally and I'm not gaslighting you.
For every flight attendant turned engineer there is a story of someone who thought they had their dream job and got laid off and struggled to find a new job.
I'm very supportive of bootcamps that set realistic expectations about what they do and don't do.
Yeah this is a better discussion.
So data structures and algorithms have been taught since the 1960s and 70s.
Microsoft started asking them in the 1990s and if was the industry standard that top companies used since then.
DS&A creates a fair playing field by normalizing for language and framework and evaluating one's problem solving.
Leetcode has steered off course and people care too much now about passing questions versus understanding why these questions are asked and how to approach them.
Good engineers being paid $1M a year who are high performers and developing interview processes aren''t gatekeeping their jobs. They will have their jobs either way.
They are also data driven engineers.
The data tells them that people with CS degrees from those 10 schools and who pass DS&A tend to be the LONG TERM high performers.
I challenged this at Meta. Response: that's what the data say…
We have very different views on this. But you really just look into who you are talking to so you can call out my actual flaws instead of making assumptions.
Can you give an argument why?
My insight is coming from interviewing 400+ people at Meta, working with well over a thousand people job hunting in the market right now, working with hundreds of bootcamp grads anywhere from right after bootcamp to years later.
My entire life is about helping break down the walls that you are calling gatekeeping, and yelling loudly and trying out "fake it till you make it" might work for you as a one off, but I'm trying to systematically change the system for the long term.
I don't know anything, but can at least explain why you think this other than just your opinion. Otherwise people can judge for themselves.
Hey, I have a lot of thoughts here and timebox my comments so I'll try:
1. So the FAANG bar is high. I went to a very good college and it wasn't really enough and only the top people made it
2. So I probably have a skewed lens now because I'm talking about career trajectories at top tier companies. I observe and work with bootcamps grads who went to not top tier companies, but don't have first hand experience there.
3. What I saw first hand was that the people who came from top tier CS were generally both more experienced AND had a natural talent for abstract thinking. People who read through open source projects for fun for hours and hours. I've seen the natural talent in bootcamp grads but those people compete head to head with a version of themselves who ALSO has more experience (both working from internships and programming experience). So those people can try as hard as they can t…
Yeah that sounds good. It doesn't hurt to do Leetcode problems, just do them following a problem solving methodology like I suggested in another comment and not just flailing until Leetcode tells you you passed the question.
The how is much more important than the what.
I would also recommend spending significant time. just understanding the basic data structures and algorithms. The bootcamps that cover them spend like a few days on them and it's just not enough time. for me personally, I had to go over the same cost that several times before they clicked over several years.
I worked with a number of people from a formerly top bootcamp Codesmith, where people do a problem a day during what they call "hack hours" and I saw the pattern a lot of people who didn't really understand the underlying data structures and algorithms and were just kind of trying to get the problems right. I'm…
Well I'm bias because my company works with people later in their careers and I have a ton of opinions on this but you should evaluate them given my bias that people pay my company for mentorship and interview prep to help them level up their jobs.
You can do this stuff without paying anyone though, it's just easier when you have dedicated experienced people advising you the whole way.
1. Develop a clear problem solving approach that you apply in real life and in interviews. We have one called "The Engineering Method" and you can develop a similar one. This approach helps you be s better problem solver but more practically, helps you pass coding interviews without doing 2000 Leetcode problems
2. Find the right company for you and the right TEAM at that company. This is probably the most important step. I see bootcamp grads jumping from job to job for increases in pay or because they a…
Doing a bootcamp + hamering LC for 6 months is the equivalent of using ozempic to casually lose weight. You might lose the weight but you aren't building the underlying behavioral patterns for the rest of your life, and you'll always be stuck in a cycle of weight gain and loss and always relying on a medication to get your weight back down.
You'll be stuck in hiring -> layoff -> hiring -> layoff -> hiring, always trying to figure out how to get the next job, cramming Leetcode for no reason, instead of how to set yourself up for a solid long term career and understanding WHY you are doing Leetcode.
Anyways, Sunday night rant haha.
At a number of top companies, bootcamp grads struggle to progress in their careers at the rate of top tier CS grads. I'm comparing apples to apple - best bootcamp grads and best CS grads.
In that bucket, the typical top tier CS grad has a great career, and the typical top tier bootcamp grad has a pretty tough road ahead.
The top 5% bootcamp grads of the TOP bootcamp(s) will have a similar trajectory and save years.
If you can tell before choosing if you'll be in the top 5% or if you are risky, then go for it. For the average person, going to Stanford CS is a better choice.
Outco is a competitor to my company so I'm super biased about talking about them.
Personally, I thought they were shutting down because their website is half broken and doesn't let you apply, some founders moved on to new things, and they are threatening to sue a bunch of people (search Reddit) who didn't get jobs in a year and thought they were getting their money back.
I would compare Outco to Formation (my company), Interview Kickstart, and Pathrise.
These are all different approaches and entirely different day to day, but all are focused on helping you get interviews and pass them.
I have always had pretty fair assessments on here despite my bias, so I'll give my PERSONAL OPINIONS trying to be as fair as I can be:
Formation: dynamic and adaptive mentorship, unique, unlimited mocks, small group sessions (3 to 6 people), 3 dedicated non technical support team members, only focused…
It's a good idea but a lot of people have no idea how to start an LLC or the money to LegalZoom to do it. Then the going registrations and tax fillings at the city, state, and federal level.
Then IP and trademarks and copyright issues. Do you own your contributions, does the business?
Running a company properly is insanely hard. So if you do it, it's absurdly impressive. If you run a company wrong or cut corners, you don't get credit for it.
1. sign up for masters to be internship eligible post graduation, drop if convert to fill time or go if not
2. volunteer or work for a professor doing research
3. try to get alumni older than you to refer you to their recruiters that they worked with when they graduated
4. find recruiters dedicated to your school and connect with them
5. do a real startup you work on full time maybe with other grads (given raw talent pool and network you have advantage both in building something and getting people to use it)
+100 to this, my concern is people sign up, love the first two sprints, come on Reddit with their referral code to gert $500 per referral telling people how great it is, and they themselves drop out a few sprints later.
It's good that you long finished the program and would recommend it.
Sorry I should clarify the recommendation is because Codemiths system sounds like a HubSpot website with API integration and they don't seem remotely aware of any of the massive problems with their service and apparently Will doesn't seem to understand the architecture himself in detail.
Their lead engineer left and I don't think anyone does. I chatted with someone who corroborated this.
Like I would not be comfortable giving them any personal information personally based on my judgment.