u/fegentlemonster wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
First time around I did LC + building apps in React for 6 months after the bootcamp, not during it. Algorithm is hard for me still. However even back then there were videos/ guides online that showed you how to solve problems, no CS degree required.
Second time and third time ar
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Doing a bootcamp + hamering LC for 6 months is the equivalent of using ozempic to casually lose weight. You might lose the weight but you aren't building the underlying behavioral patterns for the rest of your life, and you'll always be stuck in a cycle of weight gain and loss and always relying on a medication to get your weight back down.
You'll be stuck in hiring -> layoff -> hiring -> layoff -> hiring, always trying to figure out how to get the next job, cramming Leetcode for no reason, instead of how to set yourself up for a solid long term career and understanding WHY you are doing Leetcode.
Anyways, Sunday night rant haha.
u/aliya19 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Hi, then what do you suggest?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Well I'm bias because my company works with people later in their careers and I have a ton of opinions on this but you should evaluate them given my bias that people pay my company for mentorship and interview prep to help them level up their jobs.
You can do this stuff without paying anyone though, it's just easier when you have dedicated experienced people advising you the whole way.
1. Develop a clear problem solving approach that you apply in real life and in interviews. We have one called "The Engineering Method" and you can develop a similar one. This approach helps you be s better problem solver but more practically, helps you pass coding interviews without doing 2000 Leetcode problems
2. Find the right company for you and the right TEAM at that company. This is probably the most important step. I see bootcamp grads jumping from job to job for increases in pay or because they aren't doing well at their current job, or because they want a higher sounding title. All not good reasons. You want to be in a role where the day to day fits into your life and the work you do leverages things you are good at. Practically you have to make compromises because you don't have 10 years of experience to be choosy, but you should understand the tradeoffs in choosing your next job instead of just taking the highest paying one. If you know those tradeoffs you can better manage your strategy for succeeding at the job. For example if you just don't like what the company is doing if everything else about the food is great, you can try to find a team at the company that aligns best with things you like more that might not be the product they build directly, like a payment operations team or something. You might have to start with a different team and work your way there over a year or two.
u/Useful-Land-7848 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
A friend who worked at Meta for 2 years now he works at another big company (not MAANG) asked me to do Leetcode during the bootcamp but only 1 hour a day (one or 2 problems per day). Since the bootcamp is 36 weeks, by the end of the bootcamp I will have done and understood the l
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Yeah that sounds good. It doesn't hurt to do Leetcode problems, just do them following a problem solving methodology like I suggested in another comment and not just flailing until Leetcode tells you you passed the question.
The how is much more important than the what.
I would also recommend spending significant time. just understanding the basic data structures and algorithms. The bootcamps that cover them spend like a few days on them and it's just not enough time. for me personally, I had to go over the same cost that several times before they clicked over several years.
I worked with a number of people from a formerly top bootcamp Codesmith, where people do a problem a day during what they call "hack hours" and I saw the pattern a lot of people who didn't really understand the underlying data structures and algorithms and were just kind of trying to get the problems right. I'm overly generalizing but just trying to make the point that just doing the problems isn't necessarily enough. if you're really really smart and naturally pick up on patterns then just doing problems might give you enough advantage to get a job, but that doesn't mean that you're preparing for them properly and setting yourself up longer term.
u/saltedhashneggs wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Total bs from wannabe industry gatekeeper. OP you did everything right. These so called seniors get laid off all the time too for being too experienced aka expensive and all well not knowing anything relevant in their product stack that was released in last 3 years.
Just get yo
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Can you give an argument why?
My insight is coming from interviewing 400+ people at Meta, working with well over a thousand people job hunting in the market right now, working with hundreds of bootcamp grads anywhere from right after bootcamp to years later.
My entire life is about helping break down the walls that you are calling gatekeeping, and yelling loudly and trying out "fake it till you make it" might work for you as a one off, but I'm trying to systematically change the system for the long term.
I don't know anything, but can at least explain why you think this other than just your opinion. Otherwise people can judge for themselves.
u/saltedhashneggs wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
The entire old guard hacked around and figured it out with little to no bar or formal requirements for hiring other than "this dude can probably figure it out" or "this dude went to my school". and now this same class of bs artists are now 1) enforcing Leetcode as if that makes a
u/michaelnovatireplied·
We have very different views on this. But you really just look into who you are talking to so you can call out my actual flaws instead of making assumptions.
u/saltedhashneggs wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Only like 10% of this was a shot at you and just because of how deeply we disagree with your advice to OP on getting their foot in the door.
We all know who you are here and are clearly otherwise a good dude. Just so privileged of a mindset to deter people from 6figure opportuni
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Yeah this is a better discussion.
So data structures and algorithms have been taught since the 1960s and 70s.
Microsoft started asking them in the 1990s and if was the industry standard that top companies used since then.
DS&A creates a fair playing field by normalizing for language and framework and evaluating one's problem solving.
Leetcode has steered off course and people care too much now about passing questions versus understanding why these questions are asked and how to approach them.
Good engineers being paid $1M a year who are high performers and developing interview processes aren''t gatekeeping their jobs. They will have their jobs either way.
They are also data driven engineers.
The data tells them that people with CS degrees from those 10 schools and who pass DS&A tend to be the LONG TERM high performers.
I challenged this at Meta. Response: that's what the data says. The individual cases of exceptional performance from others were edge cases that were not reproducible.
I was one of the highest performing engineers at the whole company and I went to a school that Meta didn't recruit at. They didnt care and all of a sudden start recruiting there, because I was an anomaly.
A few bootcamp grads become high performers too. That doesn't matter if most aren't.
If you are a bootcamp grad you have to fight to be an anomaly and not expect to be handed a job like a Stanford grad.
u/Jealous-Teaching-211 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
hey Michael, sorry for being off topic here but is there a way to contact you? I am on a throwaway account and I think that is hindering me from sending you a chat or reddit message on here.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Sure, message me on LinkedIn, same username :D
u/TheresALonelyFeeling wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
>Develop a clear problem solving approach that you apply in real life and in interviews. We have one called "The Engineering Method" and you can develop a similar one. This approach helps you be s better problem solver but more practically, helps you pass coding interviews withou
u/michaelnovatireplied·
This is a blog we wrote https://formation.dev/blog/the-engineering-method/
u/Sweet-Fold6449 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
lol but this person isn’t stuck in that cycle. They are successful and the companies they have worked for feel that they have contributed, since they are still employed.
You’re trying to sell a product, and this answer seems like a poor understanding of how life actually ends up
u/michaelnovatireplied·
It sounds like you are familiar with my content, if not I can elaborate more.
Bootcamp grads that succeed are non-reproducible cases. That doesn't mean that a bootcamp can't help people succeed, it just means there isn't a machine in place that can on average take in person A and produce successful engineer B.
On a case by case basis you might observe a lot of things and patterns locally and I'm not gaslighting you.
For every flight attendant turned engineer there is a story of someone who thought they had their dream job and got laid off and struggled to find a new job.
I'm very supportive of bootcamps that set realistic expectations about what they do and don't do.
u/FakeExpert1973 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
>Bootcamp grads that succeed are non-reproducible cases
How about CS degree grads? Would you say they are reproducible cases?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
CS degree from a top 10 university is still reproducing placed graduates.
A top 30 is generally so too but a couple people have difficulty.
After that I would say no, a CS degree isn't reproducible producing placed grads right now.
The difference being that 4 years of school you learn a lot, even if you need more to get a job. What you learn can be applied in other fields.
A 12 week bootcamp, you don't really learn anything useful in your career. You are purely trying to make yourself appear marketable to squeeze into a job.