So what about STEM majors doing bootcamps? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Learning experience! I think one big project that's almost like a "startup", like a live product that has users and maybe even makes money.
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BloomTech CEO fined $100,000 for "Deceiving Students", must stop collecting payments · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
In my opinion, people who leave prior to "finishing the program" are the largest problem with ISAs because that's when people get the most upset.... not only did they not get a job, but they didn't even finish everything!
For the ISAs we have, we don't have a "end of the program" and there is a clear refund policy if you leave early, but we try REALLY hard to proactively reduce costs to the value a person got if someone leaves early based on what they actually did and not just the calendar time in Formation the person is contractually required to pay. Like if Formation didn't work for you, but you had 25 mentorship sessions and did 100 hours of practice tests and tasks, and no issues reported in your weekly surveys and 1-1 checkins, then it's not fair to pay zero because you were on an ISA.
Took me almost two years to find a job post-bootcamp. · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Honestly I think this is something that bootcamps are paying the price for now, wtih shrinkage and layoffs.
It's just impossible, even working 16 hours a day, to learn in a bootcamp in 12 weeks.
It's not your fault you absorb 40% - most people absorb LESS. I absorbed less the first time I did a programming class haha.
Given the option of 4 year CS degree and 12 week bootcamp, like really the ideal might be 1 year bootcamp if you think 4 years is too long.
WGU and Launch School are two of these "slower but not 4 years" options and they are doing ok still so we'll see!
"Women Who Code" is closing · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
A lot of DEI people were laid off as part of the layoffs so the people who pushed for the budget allocation might be gone and then who is going to in their place?
"Women Who Code" is closing · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Bootcamps and companies aren't paying to sponsor when they aren't doing well or aren't hiring, and I think that's what that means :(
"Women Who Code" is closing · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
This is really sad news. My company have worked with them a number of times over the years and they have always been fantastic to work with and have built a great community.
The mission doesn't end and I'm sure the people involved will keep doing important work.
BloomTech CEO fined $100,000 for "Deceiving Students", must stop collecting payments · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah this was one of the big changes over the past few years.
THESE ARE ILLUSTRATIVE EXAMPLES, READ THE FINE PRINT OF ANY SPECIFIC ISA YOU LOOK AT!
It used to be: Pay $20K OR pay $0 to $30K depending on your salary and fine print. It was like two completely different looking options.
Now it's Pay $20K, period. If you want you can get a loan for the $20K and pay back that loan with an ISA, X% a month for 5 years but capped at $30K -> and if you pay $30K, that would be like a $20K loan with 10% per year for 5 years. And if you don't pay the cap it would be less than that.
Fundamentally the same idea, but communicated in a way that makes it analogous to a loan.
Meta OA handed me an L today · r/leetcode
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Wow what's with the tone? I think the biggest criticism of my view is that I was there 2009 to 2017 and left like 7 years ago now so I have an old view, but it's not a wrong view so I don't appreciate the attacking tone this is coming across as.
I did 450ish interviews. I trained interviewers on the ground. I attended dozens of hiring committee meetings and packet reviews with Shrep and Jay and Boz and the execs.
The amount of details they consider in those reviews is crazy. They look at the exact questions asked, and the interviewers history asking that question and their interviewers feedback history, etc...
It's not just like you memorize 50 questions and pass. I assure you that it's theoretically possible pass that way, and I assure you that's not the right way to do it.
I don't want to talk about this much because it seems like product placement, but I professionally mentor peop…
BloomTech CEO fined $100,000 for "Deceiving Students", must stop collecting payments · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I think the penalty is effectively that BloomTech will have a VERY hard time operating. Kind of like how that WSJ article came out about 2U and they then rebranded all the Trilogy bootcamps to EdX and wiped the Trilogy brand off the face of the Earth.
The decree is like dozens of pages and extremely detailed so the legal costs for the CFPB likely far surpass the fine too.
BloomTech CEO fined $100,000 for "Deceiving Students", must stop collecting payments · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Wow this is massive out of nowhere news. I'm processing and will report back...
Meta OA handed me an L today · r/leetcode
u/michaelnovati replied ·
'm speaking to overall patterns, trends, and intentions, as someone who did 400+ interviews at Meta, trained interviewers and contributed to developing new interviews - like Product Architecture. I can definitely state that the goal of the interviews is not to see how much LC a person can memorize and spit out under pressure.
If I was doing a Meta interview I would absolutely be practicing common problems and patterns, my point is HOW you practice and not WHAT you practice. If you are doing LeetCode and just getting the submissions to pass, you aren't doing it right for example. If you spend months and months doing things inefficiently you might still pass! But you could have had a much easier time about it and maybe even performed better to get better team matching or negotiation.
Meta OA handed me an L today · r/leetcode
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Thanks for sharing, you come across like a super self aware engineer so I'm sure you'll come back stronger and find a super great job that's the right one.
Do you put your bootcamp in your 'experience' for CVs? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
1. "I know people from Codesmith"... yes but if you look at all the Codesmith students you see that it is a very small number of people compared to the "3500+" alumni. Outside of Capital One, Amazon is a highest with a couple dozen, Apple, Google, Intuit, Square are single digit-ish special cases.... out of 3500 people. I'm not making any comments about Codesmith here, like if it can get 5 out of 100 people amazing outcomes then that's notable, but anyone who portrays that as the norm is misleading people as to how Codesmith works - that's my point. If I think you have a very strong chance of being one of those people, I will 100%, no strings attached, recommend you go to Codesmith, and I actively try to do that.
2. 100% agree Codesmith does NOT encourage any lying. It's almost awkward how they tell you so upfront "don't lie". But I thoroughly agree with this. That said, I cought the Di…
Meta OA handed me an L today · r/leetcode
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Hi, hang tight until you officially hear back.
I worked at Meta for 8 years and conducted over 400 interviews there and I can tell from the way that you wrote this up that you're over analyzing every minute of the interview a little too much.
There's so much that I could say about the process and I can't explain it all here in a Reddit comment, but I think it's misleading, especially on Reddit and blind about like studying certain lists of questions and getting flawless solutions. and again, emphatically state that the goal of these interviews is not to see how many problems you studied and memorized.
They are looking for your problem solving process and the fact that you got questions you hadn't seen before might have rattled you. but if you had a clear and clean problem solving process and produced clear code that you walked through and explained well then you might have passed even…
Do you put your bootcamp in your 'experience' for CVs? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
The voting trends on this are whack... I guess if there is no legit response, downvoting is what's left...
Do you put your bootcamp in your 'experience' for CVs? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
The resume itself would get through to an interview, and a recruiter or hiring manager at a big tech company would definitely figure it out during the interview.
I think this is why Codesmith grads who do this approach specifically typically end up at smaller companies. By the time they get the interview, if they do well, the companies is more open to taking a chance at that point... and like you said, they don't always do or care about background checks.
At Meta, the hiring committees will grill your resume too and it's just not possible to get through without having several errors take place. It's why if you look carefully at the Codesmith alumni at Meta, most were TEMPORARY CONTRACTORS FOR A CONTRACTING COMPANY!! and didn't work there, one or two were in non-SWE roles, and almost all of them are no longer there.
So short answer - it works at smaller companies and that's why Codesm…
Do you put your bootcamp in your 'experience' for CVs? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
It depends on what kinds of jobs and how you are framing your resume.
I've seen LinkedIn after LinkedIn full if extreme exaggerations and it might not even matter what you say about your bootcamp :(
Example:
There is a Codesmith grad that has the following LinkedIn (I'm not disclosing it for DOXing reasons but I'm characterizing it 100% accurately):
Jan 2024-Present: Senior Software Developer: - Large Fashion Company
Jul 2023-Dec 2023: Software Engineer, Contract - Small Company
->\[NOTE: Undisclosed subsidiary of the bootcamp itself\]
Jan 2023-Dec 2023: Software Engineer - Small Company
->\[NOTE: Undisclosed bootcamp side project framed as a company\]
Jan 2022-Jan 2023: Software Engineer - Small Company
->\[NOTE: Undisclosed 4 week long bootcamp group project framed as a company with no mention of the bootcamp\]
2016-2022: Full Stack Web Developer - Self Employer
-…
Coding bootcamp · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah it does work for the right person, but I say every placement is an edge case right now and not reproducible in this market. So you might be one of the people it works for, but everyone is approaching bootcamps with a lot more trepidation than in the past.
Which Bootcamp offers high success and employment rate? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
In terms of ISAs though I just think you have to think of it as a loan nothing more. You have 3 options:
1. pay $X upfront
2. pay $Y a month for 4 years on a normal loan and end up paying $X + a few thousand in interest
3. don't pay anyhting until 12 months from now and if you have a job, and if you do pay $Z per month for 4 years up to $A and it ends up being $X + more interest than #2 but not thaaat much more.
If you think of it as wtf I'm not doing 1 or 2, I only want to pay if this thing works, what a deal, I'm going with 3, you are choosing an ISA for the wrong reasons.
And program should make that very clear. If they don't might be duping you.
Like if you chose option #2 and have a job at a gas station, you still have to pay back the loan with interest - lower interest than #3, but you might not be able to make the payments and default on the loan.
If you understood it this wa…
Which Bootcamp offers high success and employment rate? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
+1 to the industry needs to stop focusing on outcomes. I push the arguments for this a lot and often and get tremendous pushback from the Codesmith alumni and staff (including a leader that pushed back publicly).
Bootcamps shouldn't be 12 weeks and they shouldn't be about getting jobs only. Those types of bootcamps are done and over with.
They should be about the quality of the experience and education and about marketing to the right people that they think their program will work for.
It's why I push back on CIRR trying to force bootcamps into joining it by asking students to demand CIRR outcomes.
It's not 2021 and people focused on outcomes only are joining bootcamps for the wrong reasons - whether it ends up working or not.
In terms of ISAs though I just think you have to think of it as a loan nothing more. You have 3 options:
1. pay $X upfront
2. pay $Y a month for 4 years on…
Which Bootcamp offers high success and employment rate? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah 100%, I've talked to most of the ISA providers over the years and the market downturn really humbled a lot of bootcamps financially.
I think the sentiment is turning towards this "Income Share Loan" branding, so that the relationship is more clear going forward.
But like you said, bootcamps full of teachers who teach are teaching, and the fact that there is this contractual impact of a job doesn't make sense. If the market is amazing then it works, and it would work for every loan, like buying a car haha.
If the market is not, then it doesn't work.
Bootcamps themselves have very little to no control over the market so offering ISAs isn't a great idea for them either.
Which Bootcamp offers high success and employment rate? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
ISAs aren't a trap but you have to read the fine print and understand them yeah.
Nothing in life is free, so the way to think about it is a deferred loan that you pay back when you have income to pay it, rather than having to pay it back no matter what. And for that benefit they tend to have higher effective interest rates than normal loans.
Don't do an ISA thinking you won't pay anything back if the program doesn't work, do it if you have no income and want to defer all payments until you have some income of some kind.
Best coding bootcamp for someone with a math degree? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
How stressful will depend a lot on the company haha. I would start with jobs through the school career center though
Best coding bootcamp for someone with a math degree? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
How do you feel about business analyst or data analyst roles?
Meta Final Round, Anyone have advice on Product Architecture Design interview? · r/leetcode
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I don't personally, this was after my time!
What is the minimum benchmark to get into Formation? · r/formation
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Around 500+ haha is the shortest answer but wanted to be thorough
What is the minimum benchmark to get into Formation? · r/formation
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Hi, most importantly we want to accept people into the Fellowship who we are confident we will help find jobs, and that can vary. But if we accept you, we are confident our mentorship approach will work, because if it doesn't and we support you for a really long time to find a job, our business doesn't work and we'll lose money and can't operate.
Second, our job is to prepare you for interviews, we are not a school or bootcamp that teaches curriculum and instead we are giving you a unique experience aiming to get you in shape for interviews - like a personal trainer for your job hunt.
The benchmark is one piece of the application and there is a minimum score - but for people around that score we will look deeper into the pieces of the benchmark.
You background and experience is also important. Currently we require 1+ years of SWE work experience and most people have more than that a…
Best coding bootcamp for someone with a math degree? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I haven't done any myself, but I think they are great for free. The credential itself won't do much to get you a job.
Best coding bootcamp for someone with a math degree? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I would try to do a more data/stats internships - and try to use code on the job/leverage the company's resources to learn how to use code to do data analysis more efficiently etc... and then transition to full coding.
You can definitely find like some intro courses on Coursera for intro data basics like this: [https://www.coursera.org/professional-certificates/google-data-analytics](https://www.coursera.org/professional-certificates/google-data-analytics)
If you can get a SWE internship that's better, but like you said you need to know some coding first.
In terms of where to look, look through the schools job boards, and look around at local companies. The Sac area is both bigger than it seems and smaller than it seems so you might be able to get lucky with a local company there. I also wouldn't be surprised if a lot of government jobs and internships get posted at the school too and…
Best coding bootcamp for someone with a math degree? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Thanks that helps!
There are a few routes:
1. Try to get a data analyst-type internship this summer AND/or aim for data analyst jobs that will give you the chance to do scripting and coding on the job. And THEN try to transition to being a SWE - ideally at the same company by converting jobs there.
2. Do a post-bacc or extend a year and cram in as many CS courses as you can, and then go for new grad CS jobs. Big opportunity to cost to not working for a year, and a job is far from guaranteed, but his will give you the best computer science education.
3. Do a bootcamp. This is fast, so you don't lose as much opportunity cost from time. BUT bootcamps outcomes rely on a lot of luck right now and it's far from guaranteed. The cost is also probably higher than another year at Sac State (but arguably wouldn't matter because of the opportunity cost). If it doesn't work out, you don't rea…
Best coding bootcamp for someone with a math degree? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Couple of questions:
1. How many CS courses did you take in school?
2. Did you have any math/data related internships?
3. Is the school like a top 10/20 school, top 100 schools, or more general college?
u/michaelnovati replied · DELETED · archived copy ★ FEATURED
Unlike normal Codesmith, it's a government requirement that people have "Limited or no prior experience with the basics of coding" so that is somewhat limiting for Codesmith's community I think.
Like Codesmith clearly advertises that CSX is all you need for a junior engineering job and that Codesmith is for midlevel and senior jobs.
So anyone who has done CSX likely has too much coding experience to join this program.
u/michaelnovati posted ·
Line-by-Line Critique of CIRR Standard Document. Opinion: good intentioned organization but spec is not rigorous and robust and I point out all of the problems that make it one of the weaker specifications I've read in my opinion.
Deciding between an online vs. an in-person coding bootcamp? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
:(
Stay away from any bootcamp!!!! · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Ad hominem fallacy again, except you sprinkled in a personal attack too.
Logical fallacies don't win arguments. Facts do. Best lesson from my middle school debate class.
What public presentation of what data?
You have a completely wrong interpretation of what Formation is.
You are being condescending and offensive for you to tell me you know my company better than we know ourselves.
If Codemsith's CEO showed up we would have a very respectful back and forth I'm sure and he wouldn't be making logical fallacies and ad hominem attacks. If he did then I would tell him to his face what I'm telling you now.
Stay away from any bootcamp!!!! · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Ad hominem logical fallacy
Stay away from any bootcamp!!!! · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I'm happy it changed your life. Religion changes people's lives and people love to spread that when it works for them even though it doesn't work for everyone.
I was talking about the 2bd CIRR call. I attended both of them. I make a number of statements but my comments were restricted and I could only message Will and he chose to not acknowledge all of them and certainly not timely.
The epitomy of transparency I guess.
Stay away from any bootcamp!!!! · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I don't know what to say other than facts are facts and making up your own story based on your imagination doesn't hold up.
1. We don't compete with Codesmith. I've asked Codesmith to stop telling people that because it makes people like you think we do when it doesn't hold up in any capacity. The people that teach Codesmith do Formation, not the students, and maybe that is confusing but it shouldn't be.
2. "Often over 150 or 160k" is wrong and because you referenced CIRR earlier and should know that data. Their 2022 FTRI had about 780 starts, 732 grads. 708 job hunting. 574 had placements in 360 days. 499 had salaries and 121 had salaries over 140K. That is 15% of starts for 140K+ which is more people than make 150K, which is fantastic but it's not the norm.
Codesmith is an amazing choice for the right people and I tell those people to go to Codesmith, but portraying it as something…
Stay away from any bootcamp!!!! · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Maybe the market sucks for bootcamp grads, and no one is going to them anymore?
Codesmith's enrollment is down 70% from peak and they laid off 1/3 to 1/2 their staff.
That's not a result of this sub...
Why can't this sub be trusted?
I've been talking very openly about Codesmith's problems in this sub and when they come true and Codesmith tanks doesn't that add credibility to all the stuff I'm saying rather than detract from it?
Stay away from any bootcamp!!!! · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
+1 to this. This subreddit is FAR from perfect, but the sentiment here is a gauge of the overall bootcamp industry - whether it's more or less extreme, doesn't really matter.
The sentiment is bad because the market is bad and acting as if bootcamps never even existed.
I feel bad because some people DO have GREAT bootcamp experiences and they want to share that with the world, but sadly these are edge cases and not reproducible outcomes. I'm thrilled that you were the edge case of the bootcamp industry and got a good job, but that doesn't mean everyone else will.
Stay away from any bootcamp!!!! · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
The only people submitting to CIRR left are: 1. Codesmith. 2. a school with 15 grads in 2022, 3. a school in Jakarta that didn't follow the 2024 guidelines.
Codesmith's outcomes for H2 2022 had a very large and unexplained jump in people who didn't respond tot the survey but accoridng to Codesmith's Director of Outcomes, were verified using "LinkedIn" as placements...
It's not terrible, but "only trusted source" is factually incorrect.
Phone screen with Meta coming up · r/leetcode
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I'm not sure if they explicitly block it or not, but you should be ready to do it without it on, but without being expected to write compilable code. So if you forget some syntax you would just say "this is what I remember, I forget the exact syntax" and as long as what you thought was possible exists (or the interviewer says it's ok) then you are good.
Stay away from any bootcamp!!!! · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
It's honestly just a really bad time for a random person browsing Reddit to make the call to join a bootcamp.
The market is crazy hard and successful bootcamp placements are edge cases rather than a reproducible outcome.
Bootcamp enrollment has tanked, many layoffs and reduction in offerings.
So that's a double whammy - bootcamps being less effective AND having less resources to make changes to try to be more effective.
It makes sense the sentiment is overwhelmingly negative.
The job market is looking like 2010/2011 and it's like bootcamps NEVER EXISTED right now.
I literally never see ads for coding bootcamps on Youtube anymore · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
This is a major reason why the to
Two reasons:
1. There has been a crash in the influencer economy too, so fewer people are around advertising them
2. Bootcamp market has crashed so not many people going to bootcamps and the conversion cost of ads is too high.
One interesting thing is Codesmith just STARTED advertising with display ads!
Because the larger players have stopped advertising so much, people stopped Googling for the "best bootcamps" and finding the smaller "higher rated" ones.
So it makes sense to see MORE ads from the remaining smaller bootcamps that are surviving.
Deciding between an online vs. an in-person coding bootcamp? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
ChatGPT :)
STAY AWAY FROM SPRINGBOARD · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
This is a cautionary tale for all about Reddit, Discord and reviews. The bootcamp industry has always been a bit sketchy in that the review websites have financial arrangements with programs and success stories tend to be short term and often encouraged (sometimes without the students realizing).
The only bootcamps that are doing ok are the very small ones that have like 20 to 40 students at a time and are human-heavy operations.
u/michaelnovati posted · ★ FEATURED
Codesmith's new Future Code Program is coming together, (free program for NY residents with no programming experience, aiming for a $65K+ first computer job), applications in May, starts July 29th
This page has been around for a while but it's coming together and just updated with the dates and more info about the program: [https://www.codesmith.io/future-code-nyc](https://www.codesmith.io/future-code-nyc)
This is a great program if you meet the requirements below!
Note that you have to have **"Limited or no prior experience with the basics of coding, no paid professional web development or similar experience, and do not have a Computer Science degree"**
It's going to be very interesting to see how these alumni market their experience and resumes and what jobs they end up getting.
The job market is tough and maybe the government has jobs lined up, otherwise this might be the only ti…
Main reason why you are looking into bootcamps like Codesmith? · r/codesmith
u/michaelnovati replied · DELETED · archived copy
This poll is small but matches my observations as well. That about 85% of people interested in Codesmith are looking to break into their first full time software engineering role.
Switched Careers from Healthcare to Tech in under a year. AMA! · r/codesmith
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
This is a really good AMA and Stephen Script always has solid, clear advice. But you also shared this exact same link two weeks below just two weeks ago: [https://www.reddit.com/r/codesmith/comments/1bhkmki/switched\_careers\_from\_healthcare\_to\_tech\_in\_under/](https://www.reddit.com/r/codesmith/comments/1bhkmki/switched_careers_from_healthcare_to_tech_in_under/)
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah, everyone will be notified! We want to make sure everyone gets signed up and confirmed, as people could have last minute withdrawals, so once everything is locked in, we'll let everyone know! We're expecting to lock things in by tomorrow.