u/devslopesacademy wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
You have to be careful sometimes with bootcamps preaching their graduation and employment rates, often times it can be unreliable data. Also ISA agreements are a trap you do not want to get into. They seem very promising at a glance, but underneath the fine print they can screw y
u/michaelnovatireplied·
ISAs aren't a trap but you have to read the fine print and understand them yeah.
Nothing in life is free, so the way to think about it is a deferred loan that you pay back when you have income to pay it, rather than having to pay it back no matter what. And for that benefit they tend to have higher effective interest rates than normal loans.
Don't do an ISA thinking you won't pay anything back if the program doesn't work, do it if you have no income and want to defer all payments until you have some income of some kind.
u/devslopesacademy wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
The problem is most bootcamps won't assist you in landing a job, nor teach you the proper skills you need to land a job. A 3-6 month bootcamp can lock you into an ISA. Then once you've completed it, it doesn't matter if you have a programming job or not.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Yeah 100%, I've talked to most of the ISA providers over the years and the market downturn really humbled a lot of bootcamps financially.
I think the sentiment is turning towards this "Income Share Loan" branding, so that the relationship is more clear going forward.
But like you said, bootcamps full of teachers who teach are teaching, and the fact that there is this contractual impact of a job doesn't make sense. If the market is amazing then it works, and it would work for every loan, like buying a car haha.
If the market is not, then it doesn't work.
Bootcamps themselves have very little to no control over the market so offering ISAs isn't a great idea for them either.
u/Nsevedge wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
The industry needs a correction to focus on great education and a promise to support students - not % of outcomes. Similar to universities.
Everyone was trained to think that they can have a % of guaranteed success when that's simply not how the world works.
It's a bummer becau
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
+1 to the industry needs to stop focusing on outcomes. I push the arguments for this a lot and often and get tremendous pushback from the Codesmith alumni and staff (including a leader that pushed back publicly).
Bootcamps shouldn't be 12 weeks and they shouldn't be about getting jobs only. Those types of bootcamps are done and over with.
They should be about the quality of the experience and education and about marketing to the right people that they think their program will work for.
It's why I push back on CIRR trying to force bootcamps into joining it by asking students to demand CIRR outcomes.
It's not 2021 and people focused on outcomes only are joining bootcamps for the wrong reasons - whether it ends up working or not.
In terms of ISAs though I just think you have to think of it as a loan nothing more. You have 3 options:
1. pay $X upfront
2. pay $Y a month for 4 years on a normal loan and pay $X + a few thousand in interest
3. don't pay anyhting until 12 months from now and if you have a job, and if you do pay $Z per month for 4 years up to $A and it ends up being $X + more interest than #2 but not thaaat much more.
u/Nsevedge wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Here's why they are a trap.
As the CEO of Devslopes, we where sold heavily by multiple companies to offer ISA's to our students.
First, if that student get's a job at a gas station - they will still have to pay back the cost of the program plus a 25%+ interest rate (including t
u/michaelnovatireplied·
In terms of ISAs though I just think you have to think of it as a loan nothing more. You have 3 options:
1. pay $X upfront
2. pay $Y a month for 4 years on a normal loan and end up paying $X + a few thousand in interest
3. don't pay anyhting until 12 months from now and if you have a job, and if you do pay $Z per month for 4 years up to $A and it ends up being $X + more interest than #2 but not thaaat much more.
If you think of it as wtf I'm not doing 1 or 2, I only want to pay if this thing works, what a deal, I'm going with 3, you are choosing an ISA for the wrong reasons.
And program should make that very clear. If they don't might be duping you.
Like if you chose option #2 and have a job at a gas station, you still have to pay back the loan with interest - lower interest than #3, but you might not be able to make the payments and default on the loan.
If you understood it this way though you might not also choose #3 and programs have to try their best to explain things clearly.