u/michaelnovati replied ·
App Academy indefinitely paused their SWE program.
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u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I'm seeing a lot of bootcamps pivoting to AI in a cash grab, many paused their SWE programs while they do so.
I'm REALLY nervous about bootcamps trying to exploit their alumni for cash like Codesmith is with their AI/ML Leadership course.
I've reviewed the course and this free YouTube video from an industry leader with 10+ years of AI experience across two of the top research labs + OpenAI + Tesla Director of AI: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xTGNNLPyMI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xTGNNLPyMI)
I feel for Codesmith - their AI course is taught by some awesome individuals, but they have like 1 year of SWE experience each and it just doesn't stack up in any way to Andrei and Andrei's course is 100% free.
I quite frankly don't really know what anyone at Codesmith can do to catch up to someone like Andrei in teaching AI directly now that Andrei started a company to teach people AI…
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Launch School Core isn't that expensive but Capstone is very expensive, but the idea is that but the time you get to Capstone, you know it will have a high chance of working.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Yeah this is a very important point that these systemic issues are not just Codesmith and a lot of places have them.
The only program I know that has very transparent outcomes is Launch School, where they are small enough they can account AND discuss with commentary, each outcome and pattern, and they had something like a 70% 6 month placement rate for 2023 cohorts as well - which is on the positive side of flipping the coin.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I would also consider a masters degree. Some online good masters like this one [https://omscs.gatech.edu/](https://omscs.gatech.edu/)
Best coding bootcamp for someone with a math degree? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Hmm I don't have an extremely confident answer but can share my thoughts.
1. Since your coops were marketing (and more data analyst related) I would stick to finding a job in that area, maybe even contracting (e.g. 'starting your own company') doing marketing and data analysis.
2. A bootcamp won't really help you with everything you need, the main thing it will help you with is doing a capstone CS project you can highlight. The "top bootcamps" frame that project as "work experience" and it's a dirty secret that this framing is largely responsible for resumes getting past lazy recruiters rather than the work itself. If you did your own 1 month personal project 80 hours a week and then framed it as a year of work experience on your resume, you would have similar results.
3. Consider a masters degree in CS. This probably the least risky way. In Canada Masters are more research focused,…
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Here's my analysis:
Based on my close view of the market for the past 5 years, I would guess 2024 students will have similar placement rates to 2023 students.
Based on the anecdotes people share with me from Codesmith, there are hardly any placement and hardly any alumni engagement - specifically in the second half of 2024.
Codesmith itself loudly touts a CIRR-violating salary outcome and placement number on their website of 168 offers between March and August 2024 that we can also factor in.
1. Salaries they reported were DOWN from peak about 10% - when inflation ran rampant and salaries have gone up, this tanking salary shows that more people are taking non-SWE jobs, going back to their old jobs or taking temporary jobs as part of a longer term plan.
2. It's possible that people taking non SWE jobs and worse jobs instead of waiting for their dream SWE job will result in a higher…
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Small typo (3 -> 5), it was 589 graduates and 389 placed. and 70% of 589 = 389.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I agree that scenario isn't so clear and when there was a market inefficiency for hiring SWEs a lot of companies came up with ideas:
1. Bootcamps
2. Post-BACC CS diplomas
3. WGU - self paced quick CS degree
4. EdX free courses from MIT and Stanford
5. Udacity "Nano Degree"
\-----------------------
Ultimately - you just can't become a solid SWE in 12 weeks or a few months, it's a fiction and a myth. It would be like deciding to become a Lawyer in 12 weeks if you are an engineer by training.
You can develop skills, hyperfocus and accelerate your learning, but some of the process of getting there is just letting ideas bake in when they bake in, getting involved with lawyers and listening to them inside and outside of work, etc....
\------------------------
So then why do people come to Reddit saying Codesmith or HackReactor changed their life and went from school teacher to $150K…
u/michaelnovati replied ·
fixed
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Would you not agree that dropping from 90 to 70 to 29 though is something they should note and discuss a random students odds went from almost certain to the expected outcome being no placement in 6 months.
Codesmith defence in Feb 2024 was that everything is fine, the outcomes are strong, but people are taking 120 days instead of 90 days to place.
No discussion about how their placements are terrible but still better than CS.
Lastly, their market themselves as an alternative to an elite grad school and elot grad schools like Stanford have almost 100% placement and like $150K average salaries or something like that.
So I wouldn't accept a comparison to all CS but a comparison to the best schools.
During the boom times Codesmith posted something from Switch UP that their grads made more money than specific top CS schools.... let's see that same study in 2023/2024.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Definitely not a lot, they had a lease paying like $70K a month in NYC, and they laid off the majority of staff at this point.
But $5M gives you raw resources to try to cut back and invest in AI and new programs that you wouldn't be able to do if you paused the program instead.
Some respectable bootcamps paused and pivoted to AI because I think it's the more ethical thing to do.
But delusionally continuing with SWE can backfire if the outcomes are too terrible and it destroys the brand instead and that's what we're now seeing here.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I agree with these arguments as well but Codesmith compared themselves to the best of the best. Marketing as an alternative to an elite grad school.
So they need to be compared to Stanford which is still like 100% of job seekers and average base salaries like $150K.
If the marketing is to be better than a non name CS degree then I might agree with that, or at least consider them closer.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I commented on this website months ago but I believe it's true and the problem is it conflates 2022, 2023, 2024 outcomes and outcomes for people that might have been looking for well over a year.
Second, the pacing with 168 offers in that period is much fewer offers per day than in their peak period, so even that number is not very good.
Again, marketing to try to make things look better.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Funny that I don't have any of these problems until I point out anything critical about Codesmith's and then these random accounts seem to come out of the woodwork.
Reddit permanently suspended dozens of them already for creating a bunch of fake comments, threads and votes and all kinds of messed up stuff exclusively on Codesmith content and two claiming to represent Codesmith officialy.
Isn't it more weird to have a fake AMA where 1/3 of the comments are fake accounts having fake conversations?
That's not just one clown, it's a whole circus!
All I have is integrity and even though Reddit can't catch all this in real time, they eventually do. That's why those AMAs have so many deleted and suspended accounts on them when you go back 3 months later.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
based on how many comments you have that have been removed for harassment and trolling, I mean I guess that you're not actually reading anything or thinking about things like an intelligent person would process them and just attacking.
I very clearly said you have to have two plus years of experience right now. at least to benefit from what we do and it's been like that for over a year now and if you just graduated from a cs degree we would not accept you.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
We're like personal training. Saying no professional athlete needs personal training is ridiculous. Some don't sure but not all.
In fact the top of the top professional athletes don't only have full-time traveling personal trainers, but they have full-time traveling masseuses, chefs and other staff and pay them cumulatively millions of dollars a year.
Of course that's not our vision or our market but we work with some excellent engineers to get into shape for interviews but the engineers are the ones doing the work.
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
I agree, maybe even a top 20 school.
Part of it is the selection process. If you can get into a top 20 school, you are probably someone who is also more likely to succeed in 12 months too.
Codesmith was a place with a high selection bar. They did a study on schools people went to prior and only a tiny percent didn't have any college experience and most went to good public or private or ivy league like schools.
So taking people that are proven to be able to get into a really good college in a different discipline and then giving them a boot camp after to fill in some specific technical gaps where they already built a network and non-technical skills in their degree at their really good school. could make sense, maybe too, but that's still a bit of a stretch to me and I don't think that is a reproducible heurosric.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Why the heck would I say to get a 4 year CS degree from a top school if I was advertising Formation as an alternative???
If you have 2+ years of industry experience as a SWE already then yes, consider Formation. Formation Formation FORMATION!
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Bootcamps and crappy CS degrees took advantage of market inefficiencies. Those inefficiencies corrected.
I bet you you can learn to be an accountant on 12 months too.
The college system isn't about learning skills but about working your way through a system that bubbles up the top people over 4 years and hands those people to the top companies in a silver platter.
Most importantly, the bootcamp system had it's shot to show that it can be a better system and it failed or it would have replaced college.
Big tech went back to the top colleges and unless you think they are idiots they are doing so for a reason and abandoning bootcamps.
TLDR: can the right person be hirable via a bootcamp in 12 months? yes. Is the bootcamp model consistently producing qualified people more reliable than CS degrees. That's a proven no.
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
Yeah exactly, and on my side with my work hat on, I see a number of Codesmith grads (but really bootcamp grads more broadly) who still fell lost a few years into their careers.
Maybe there is a layoff, maybe you changed companies three times but aren't progressing to 'Senior', etc...
Codesmith in particular has some people in their career support that market themselves to grads as industry experts who are all you need for the rest of your career, and it's like two people who have reasonable points of view but FAR FROM 'all you need' and it's really HARMING GRADS I TALK TO.
Things like:
1. Someone told me today that a leader was telling people about a special deal to sell options to Codesmith's partner if you leave your startup and can't afford to exercise them when you leave.
This is something companies help with for 10 to 15+ YEARS, since the 2000 bubble, and there are all kinds of…
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
My view now is firmly in the camp of SWE bootcamps are dead as a scalable business model. SWE bootcamps will survive that are small, founder led, and they are able to select and find a tiny number of edge case people for whom the bootcamp will work well, and then most of those people get jobs -realizing that their situation is not reproducible for everyone.
And then a new wave of AI-for-non-engineers-to-be-better-at-their-jobs will pop up. Some from the ashes of SWE bootcamps, some brand new ones.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I've seen two examples:
1. [https://www.gauntletai.com/](https://www.gauntletai.com/) \- first step is an IQ-like test
2. two top VCs started this: [https://meritfirst.us/](https://meritfirst.us/) (aptitude test to get in the pool)
Both use "meritocracy" as the guiding principle which has similar language to the new government administrations position.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I posted about this in another thread somewhere but the new administrations stance in the USA about DEI is also causing a lot of apprenticeships and programs for non traditional pathways to be shutdown, and while that impacts a lot of sources of people, it doesn't help bootcamp grads at all.
A world of "meritocracy" does not favor a bootcamp grad with ZERO SWE experience, no matter how much potential they have. They are going to have to build experience with unpaid internships, contracts, etc... to compete with 'meritocracy'
On the other hand, a new trend is the "IQ Test" approach - ignore background and do an IQ test and if it's high enough then you get the job regardless.
This might give some bootcamp grads a shot who have high IQs but you can't increase your IQ with a bootcamp, so.... I don't think it will keep the bootcamp industry alive but it might open up more direct paths fo…
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I can give my thoughts
1. Layoffs aren't a huge factor, but the entry level market is returning to the pre-COVID environment that focuses on top tier computer science grads, internships -> full time, etc... So if you want to be a SWE at a top tech company, get a CS degree at a top school.
2. I think there is going to be a ton of jobs created that use AI that are NOT SWE roles but are just non-engineer roles + AI. E.g. Lawyer + AI and Accountant + AI and Nurse + AI, and Doctor + AI, and all the creative fields (writing, music, etc....) we will need a lot programs for NON ENGINEERS to level up using AI and technology. I think this is where Codesmith is going to eventually, they just aren't cutting off the SWE part out of pride and because as I said in my post - it makes $5M despite terrible outcomes and that $5M can be used to build AI before admitting to those people they don't have muc…
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
It's completely misleading yes and that's why I've been so hard on their marketing this past year! I've had anecdotal reports of numbers from reasonable sources for a while and found those numbers on their site completely misleading.
1. 29% is within six months of graduation. So people can get jobs after that and be reported int he 168 number of their website and also In their last CIRR report, they published 3 mo, 6mo, 12 mo numbers and their 6 month placement for 2022 grads was like 70% and their 12 mo was 80%, so of those 250 minus 70 people, I'm sure some of them got jobs in first half of 2024 (which would be post 6 months but less than 12 months)
2. The 168 number includes 2024 grads that got offers really fast. A small number of people with exceptional backgrounds, experience, networks, get jobs fast. Because they didn't specify how long those people were looking and when they gr…
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited
6 months
u/michaelnovati posted ·
BREAKING NEWS: Codesmith 2023 official outcomes published: CANNOT BE WORSE - placement rate crashed from 70% to 29%. Enrollment also tanked over 50%. The software engineering bootcamp era is over.
u/michaelnovati posted · · edited ★ FEATURED
BREAKING NEWS: Codesmith 2023 official outcomes published: CANNOT BE WORSE - placement rate crashed from 70% to 29%. Enrollment also tanked over 50%. The software engineering bootcamp era is over.
I'm going to keep this brief because the data tells the story pretty well.
Codesmith was once arguably the top bootcamp, and generally regarded as a top 5 bootcamp, and their outcomes have been completely decimated. They touted in their marketing in 2023 of past years' median placement salaries of up to $130K, 90% placement rates, and people didn't care how it happened just that it happened.
**Well the job market has humbled even the best and Codesmith's self-reported 2023 student placement rate is beyond terrible, it's evidence that SWE bootcamps are no longer a viable pathway into the industry no matter what the program says or does.**
[Link to Official Report](https://www.bppe.ca.gov/web…
Future Code Update #3 · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
"Account Suspended", I can't believe people have the guts to lie straight to people's face. Not a plant or advisor - but a paid marketer....
Turing School founder “we’re just a little charity” as defense to court ruling · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah commercial leases you can't get out of and you need to plan to pay the entire cost of the lease in financial planning. It's why there are so many subleases of subleases of subleases etc...
I see both sides of it, but ultimately it is what it is. When you are making $8M of revenue and growing and you see this beautiful office in a great location and are super optimistic about the future, and COVID didn't happen, it might look like you had the best deal in Denver with this cheap lease locked in and the landlord can't raise your rent or get rid of you either.
TripleTen? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Do you have a source or reference for that? I'm also curious about the real effective completion rate as self paced online programs have like 20% completion rates from some other data I saw, but it's so sparse I want to know more.
Bloomtech fka Lambda ISA, CFPB Consent Order - You qualify in all areas except Bloomtech sold your ISA - README.md · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I can't give a full reply because I'm involved in a legal dispute with Leif, but I can comment more broadly that Leif likely has the contractual permission to subcontract out servicing to a 3rd party.
Look for an 'assignment' clause in your agreement, or the term "servicer" or "servicing" to see.
Springboard job guarantee · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
There was a recent court ruling where it was so a lot of contracts include it now.
Springboard job guarantee · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
What is your goal? Justice against Springboard (that might bankrupt them for example) or getting your money back? If you want your money back, I would make them a reasonable offer and not sue them.
Other Suggestions:
1. Read the contract carefully - they might be able to remove the job guarantee, or defer to strict requirements that can change and then make those requirements very hard to achieve
2. Check to see if the contract gives up rights to class action
3. Lawsuits aren't like on television where you can get millions of dollars, you more often than will barely get anything and you pursue a lawsuit as a last resort because the other party just won't negotiate and the amount of money in question is so much that even after all the fees and time and energy it will be worth it for you.
How many times do you get a check for like $5 in the mail because of some class action lawsuit y…
Tripleten boot camp money back guarantee · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
This is definitely a question to ask them and not Reddit.
But this doesn't sound good to me...
You only get a guarantee if you fulfill job hunt obligations for 10 months after completing the career accelerator which you can only get to by completing most of TripleTen to begin with.
I would ask them how many people have received a refund historically.
On the other hand, tons of people who posted months ago with referral codes saying how great their experience is haven't been back to complain about this, so maybe it's all good.
Codesmith launched cohort 2 of the Future Code NYC program (free bootcamp for NYC residents who make un $50K and have zero coding experience) · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Last year they 'highly encouraged' people to post videos and creative pieces publicly on Reddit, and social media to explain why they wanted to join.
I felt like it was a gimmick to try to get free marketing for Codesmith, but it came across they wanted people who will articulately market and advertise for Codesmith and be very supportive.
I don't know behind the scenes. The people who contacted me who were accepted were extremely strong at coding, but technically had no computer science degree (perhaps they dropped out or had a mechanical engineer degree), maybe they went to another bootcamp first, maybe they had done a lot of scholarship courses but they weren't official courses.... etc.
Codesmith launched cohort 2 of the Future Code NYC program (free bootcamp for NYC residents who make un $50K and have zero coding experience) · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I'm very curious how many people dropped off from start to finish as well.
But those people graduate end of April, which is well past the deadline for the next cohort.
Codesmith measures performance metrics for placements within 360 days of completion, so they likely won't publish any kind of data until April 2026 about how the July 2024 cohort did.
I'm sure if they have some success cases before, they will highlight them on social media, but we need to see the actual data and impact.
Of the people who started, how many get a better job and what kinds of jobs do they get.
I'm sure verbal feedback will be amazing and current students will join all the info sessions saying how amazing the program was, but SHOW ME THE MONEY! 37 weeks full time is a heck of a long time and even if the program is free, you could do other things. Let's say you make $20 a hour and this program is about 148…
Codesmith launched cohort 2 of the Future Code NYC program (free bootcamp for NYC residents who make un $50K and have zero coding experience) · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Can't hurt to ask them
Codesmith launched cohort 2 of the Future Code NYC program (free bootcamp for NYC residents who make un $50K and have zero coding experience) · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Yeah the minimum is like barely more than 1 job at minimum wage and last time around people who were just intentionally taking a break applied... someone was a MEDICAL DOCTOR and applied because being unemployed counts as $0, even if you are voluntarily unemployed.
Since the program is full time anyways and they advise against having any job while doing it, perhaps just being unemployed qualifies.
Codesmith launched cohort 2 of the Future Code NYC program (free bootcamp for NYC residents who make un $50K and have zero coding experience) · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Someone was blogging about their experience but they just entirely disappeared after 8 weeks. [https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1flgee6/future\_code\_update\_4/](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1flgee6/future_code_update_4/)
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Hi, it highly depends on your specific experience. Having a gap can be fine if you had many years of experience prior. If you left and did a bootcamp and that's why you have a gap, then I would consider putting it under education.
Honestly, it's incredibly hard and there's only so much you can do. Which is why when I surveilled Codesmith grads, like 80, 90% of people were significantly exaggerating or flat out lying. It's an ends justify the means argument that if they can do well on the job, it's wrong for them to be disqualified due to lack of experience, so fudging it a bit is fine.
I know a lot of people that choose to exaggerate as a result as well. I think there are major problems by doing that, BUT I'm more centrist on the issue.
What I'm extremely against is Codesmith not being transparent about how things are so that you can make a grown up choice. Instead it's more of a br…
Codesmith launched cohort 2 of the Future Code NYC program (free bootcamp for NYC residents who make un $50K and have zero coding experience) · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I can't speak for the program so you should apply and learn more and see if it's a good fit.
It's for people who are unemployed or making under 50K a year in NYC who want to become software engineers.
Codesmith launched cohort 2 of the Future Code NYC program (free bootcamp for NYC residents who make un $50K and have zero coding experience) · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
The city of NY pays the cost to Codesmith
Codesmith launched cohort 2 of the Future Code NYC program (free bootcamp for NYC residents who make un $50K and have zero coding experience) · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
It definitely buys time for the company side. But if the people get good >$50K jobs doing anything remotely technical - nevermind 'software engineering', I think it could be a success and a good program - as long as people expect that and don't expect $150K mid-level job.
Codesmith launched cohort 2 of the Future Code NYC program (free bootcamp for NYC residents who make un $50K and have zero coding experience) · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Yeah + 1, and that's why I prefaced my notes - don't fall for marketing that this will change your life and get you a six figure job. You MIGHT, but a lot of that will depend on YOU. And if you are are the right person, this might help you get there in a way nothing else can. But for 99% of the readers, that's not you, and that's ok.
Codesmith launched cohort 2 of the Future Code NYC program (free bootcamp for NYC residents who make un $50K and have zero coding experience) · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati posted · ★ FEATURED
Codesmith launched cohort 2 of the Future Code NYC program (free bootcamp for NYC residents who make un $50K and have zero coding experience)
SOURCE: [https://www.become-irreplaceable.dev/future-code](https://www.become-irreplaceable.dev/future-code)
NOTE!: This is not an endorsement of Codesmith - I've been (and still am) very critical of Codesmith for: 1. lack of transparency around outcomes (in that they are extremely defensive and reactive about their declining outcomes, instead of being transparent and attracting the right people), 2: misleading grads with zero experience that they are senior engineers and that their 4 week long project is so hard it makes them a mid-level engineer, 3: when looking at LinkedIns of graduates the vast majority represent their 4 week projects as 11 months+ of 'work experience' and my opinion is that this harms the industry, and is responsible for peo…
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
When I spot check these people, I see their OSP looking like over 1 year of work experience on their LinkedIns because they have been job hunting so long and I think this is the dirty secret people don't like talking about a lot. People who get their jobs this way don't want anyone to know out of potentially losing that job, and Codesmith always downplays these things as not relevant - instead telling you how your capacities are strong and mid-level/senior so your resume is fine as long as it demonstrates that. Companies aren't falling for it anymore for 3-4 months projects but when people have 1-2 years on there I think some are still getting through (even though it's fewer than before).
Protip: when you see placements - look at their LinkedIn and see what they say there. I often see people celebrate their "first engineering job!" but their LinkedIn says like 4 years Self-employed soft…
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Thanks for sharing and this is consistent with what I hear from people (plus some ghoster placements you don't see)
Rest assured if their CIRR 2023 numbers released in March look suspicious I will loudly call it out publicly. People need to know how things are right now and Codesmith is extremely non transparent about it, and in fact the opposite - makes it sound like everything is fine and everyone is getting senior jobs.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
The CIRR Standard says this:
"Documentation for "unknown" roles must:
● Be a screenshot of the student's LinkedIn profile.
● If the profile includes the month the position started, the last day of that month may be used for the start date. If the profile does not, the date of the screenshot may be used.
● The "unknown" status may only be used if a student would otherwise qualify as "non-reporting" or the student has requested that the school not contact them."