BREAKING NEWS: Codesmith 2023 official outcomes published: CANNOT BE WORSE - placement rate crashed from 70% to 29%. Enrollment also tanked over 50%. The software engineering bootcamp era is over.
BREAKING NEWS: Codesmith 2023 official outcomes published: CANNOT BE WORSE - placement rate crashed from 70% to 29%. Enrollment also tanked over 50%. The software engineering bootcamp era is over.
I'm going to keep this brief because the data tells the story pretty well.
Codesmith was once arguably the top bootcamp, and generally regarded as a top 5 bootcamp, and their outcomes have been completely decimated. They touted in their marketing in 2023 of past years' median placement salaries of up to $130K, 90% placement rates, and people didn't care how it happened just that it happened.
**Well the job market has humbled even the best and Codesmith's self-reported 2023 student placement rate is beyond terrible, it's evidence that SWE bootcamps are no longer a viable pathway into the industry no matter what the program says or does.**
[Link to Official Report](https://www.bppe.ca.gov/webapplications/annualReports/2023/document/d61a60e4-9016-4044-946e-938c502f4c86)
**DATA SUMMMARY:**
2021: 347 students -> 327 graduates -> 90% employed in field
2022: 606 students -> 389 graduates -> 70% employed in field
# 2023: 258 students -> 251 graduates-> 29% employed in field
# Only 71 students from 2023 placed
At a tuition of over $20,000 Codesmith made over $5,000,000 in student tuition from these people.
If you are a Codesmith student or alumni, my DMs are open if you have comments and aren't comfortable commenting on the thread. I know a lot of people are upset and I don't expect these statistics to help.
\----------------------------------------
**COMMENTARY:**
These are my personal opinions based on my personal perspective.
1. I'm super upset that all through 2024 Codesmith leaders have been defending their outcomes, publicly gaslighting me for calling out their data by sharing cherry picked data and then defending it... and all this time they were clearly aware their placement rates were tanking.
2. Codesmith has been advertising amazing placements on their website, talking about how strong their outcomes were on their blog, and not once warned anyone about the tanking placement rates they have known about for months now. I hope they take responsibility for this. In January 2024, when they had an early but reasonable signal on 2023 graduates, they touted "strong outcomes" and didn't warn anyone of anything.
3. Codesmith is advertising over 4000 graduates as a sign of the strength of the school... well in 2023 there were only 258 and only 71 people placed in a year, so no matter how good they were in the past, don't be mislead about current outcomes.
4. Enrollment tanked in 2023 from 606 -> 258 students **AND** placements tanked. So this adds to the evidence that enrollment is tanking and placements are tanking. This could indicate the bar is lower and more people are being let in that shouldn't have been, but were let in because of tanking enrollment. Codesmith has denied this, so it's also possible that the market alone is responsible.
u/jcasimir wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I wonder about the placement timeline. If it’s like 90 days then those numbers don’t surprise me. But if the period is longer then yeah this is not good. I think in this era we need to look at a year after graduation / ever.
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited
6 months
u/Regility wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
their website is saying 168 for march - august 2024. i’m confused how does that number work when 2023 is arguably comparable
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
It's completely misleading yes and that's why I've been so hard on their marketing this past year! I've had anecdotal reports of numbers from reasonable sources for a while and found those numbers on their site completely misleading.
1. 29% is within six months of graduation. So people can get jobs after that and be reported int he 168 number of their website and also In their last CIRR report, they published 3 mo, 6mo, 12 mo numbers and their 6 month placement for 2022 grads was like 70% and their 12 mo was 80%, so of those 250 minus 70 people, I'm sure some of them got jobs in first half of 2024 (which would be post 6 months but less than 12 months)
2. The 168 number includes 2024 grads that got offers really fast. A small number of people with exceptional backgrounds, experience, networks, get jobs fast. Because they didn't specify how long those people were looking and when they graduated, we don't know.
**THE MORE IMPORTANT QUESTION TO ASK** is why do they report March 2024 to August 2024? What's special about those dates? Why not report Jan to September or Jan to June or something more reasonable. I suspect they chose the most optimal range of dates and the placements in Jan to March were much worse too.
u/nyquant wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I suppose its the overall economic environment and industry trends of continued news about layoffs, outsourcing and even the impact of AI that affects bootcamp graduates the most, as they compete for a smaller amount of openings against job seekers with industry experience and CS
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I can give my thoughts
1. Layoffs aren't a huge factor, but the entry level market is returning to the pre-COVID environment that focuses on top tier computer science grads, internships -> full time, etc... So if you want to be a SWE at a top tech company, get a CS degree at a top school.
2. I think there is going to be a ton of jobs created that use AI that are NOT SWE roles but are just non-engineer roles + AI. E.g. Lawyer + AI and Accountant + AI and Nurse + AI, and Doctor + AI, and all the creative fields (writing, music, etc....) we will need a lot programs for NON ENGINEERS to level up using AI and technology. I think this is where Codesmith is going to eventually, they just aren't cutting off the SWE part out of pride and because as I said in my post - it makes $5M despite terrible outcomes and that $5M can be used to build AI before admitting to those people they don't have much a shot anymore.
u/KingOfLucis wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Yeah I can count in one hand the number of companies that still offer apprenticeships for bootcamp grads and they only get like 5-8 people.
It's still possible to land a job as a bootcamp grad but you have to really stand out and have other qualifications (non cs degree, profes
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I posted about this in another thread somewhere but the new administrations stance in the USA about DEI is also causing a lot of apprenticeships and programs for non traditional pathways to be shutdown, and while that impacts a lot of sources of people, it doesn't help bootcamp grads at all.
A world of "meritocracy" does not favor a bootcamp grad with ZERO SWE experience, no matter how much potential they have. They are going to have to build experience with unpaid internships, contracts, etc... to compete with 'meritocracy'
On the other hand, a new trend is the "IQ Test" approach - ignore background and do an IQ test and if it's high enough then you get the job regardless.
This might give some bootcamp grads a shot who have high IQs but you can't increase your IQ with a bootcamp, so.... I don't think it will keep the bootcamp industry alive but it might open up more direct paths for brilliant people to get SWE jobs without experience and without having to pay $22K for a bootcamp.
u/KingOfLucis wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I've never heard of the IQ test approach being used for any SWE roles. What companies have started doing this?
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I've seen two examples:
1. [https://www.gauntletai.com/](https://www.gauntletai.com/) \- first step is an IQ-like test
2. two top VCs started this: [https://meritfirst.us/](https://meritfirst.us/) (aptitude test to get in the pool)
Both use "meritocracy" as the guiding principle which has similar language to the new government administrations position.
u/Nsevedge wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
It’s not over - education is needed.
The era of guaranteed employment with no connection to reality is DEAD.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
My view now is firmly in the camp of SWE bootcamps are dead as a scalable business model. SWE bootcamps will survive that are small, founder led, and they are able to select and find a tiny number of edge case people for whom the bootcamp will work well, and then most of those people get jobs -realizing that their situation is not reproducible for everyone.
And then a new wave of AI-for-non-engineers-to-be-better-at-their-jobs will pop up. Some from the ashes of SWE bootcamps, some brand new ones.
u/sheriffderek wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
If they didn’t have so many layers to start in the first place, I’d be happy they had 10%.
But when have the pre courses and the testing and the bootcamp and the help after and the supposed connections (and having filtered so many people out to begin with) - and they get less
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
Yeah exactly, and on my side with my work hat on, I see a number of Codesmith grads (but really bootcamp grads more broadly) who still fell lost a few years into their careers.
Maybe there is a layoff, maybe you changed companies three times but aren't progressing to 'Senior', etc...
Codesmith in particular has some people in their career support that market themselves to grads as industry experts who are all you need for the rest of your career, and it's like two people who have reasonable points of view but FAR FROM 'all you need' and it's really HARMING GRADS I TALK TO.
Things like:
1. Someone told me today that a leader was telling people about a special deal to sell options to Codesmith's partner if you leave your startup and can't afford to exercise them when you leave.
This is something companies help with for 10 to 15+ YEARS, since the 2000 bubble, and there are all kinds of loans and different options here but the person who flagged this felt like the leader made it sound like you have to do this through Codesmith to be able to and it's a special options.
2. Bad negotiation advice resulting in withdrawn offers for companies that do not negotiate for real
3. Mock interviews but there are like only a handful of people who do them and those people are only a couple years into their careers.
4. Career Support Engineers telling you to "work on your buzzwords more" and helping people exaggerate their resumes.
5. Texting someone to not go to my company because it's a waste of money and the leader will give them 'all they need' through Codesmith alumni services.
Don't get me wrong. I REALLY appreciate a bootcamp TRYING to offer lifelong support, they just are offering barely minimal superficial support and calling it a Picasso. They should just be more realistic and let their grads free.
It's a really weird control mechanism - like they want people to believe that they can get everything they need from career services so that the people never leave? or just so they feel needed and valuable and good about themselves like out of enjoyment of feeling useful?
I'm not sure, I'm not a psychologist, but it might be better if they just didn't offer these things and let their alumni free to explore the outside world and get the help they need, be it with open source, companies, other bootcamp grads, paid programs, online programs, etc...
u/crimsonslaya wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
CS degrees are filled with useless fluff. SWE is basically a white collar trade that can be taught in under 12 months.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Bootcamps and crappy CS degrees took advantage of market inefficiencies. Those inefficiencies corrected.
I bet you you can learn to be an accountant on 12 months too.
The college system isn't about learning skills but about working your way through a system that bubbles up the top people over 4 years and hands those people to the top companies in a silver platter.
Most importantly, the bootcamp system had it's shot to show that it can be a better system and it failed or it would have replaced college.
Big tech went back to the top colleges and unless you think they are idiots they are doing so for a reason and abandoning bootcamps.
TLDR: can the right person be hirable via a bootcamp in 12 months? yes. Is the bootcamp model consistently producing qualified people more reliable than CS degrees. That's a proven no.
u/crimsonslaya wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
One word for you Mike, formation 🤣🤣🤣
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Why the heck would I say to get a 4 year CS degree from a top school if I was advertising Formation as an alternative???
If you have 2+ years of industry experience as a SWE already then yes, consider Formation. Formation Formation FORMATION!
u/Nsevedge wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
The only caveat here is that unless you are in a top 50ish school, it’s all “crappy”.
The idea that everything is back to a college degree is just not true.
Businesses are relying more again on DSA’s and an individuals ability to show critical thinking & problem solving skills.
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
I agree, maybe even a top 20 school.
Part of it is the selection process. If you can get into a top 20 school, you are probably someone who is also more likely to succeed in 12 months too.
Codesmith was a place with a high selection bar. They did a study on schools people went to prior and only a tiny percent didn't have any college experience and most went to good public or private or ivy league like schools.
So taking people that are proven to be able to get into a really good college in a different discipline and then giving them a boot camp after to fill in some specific technical gaps where they already built a network and non-technical skills in their degree at their really good school. could make sense, maybe too, but that's still a bit of a stretch to me and I don't think that is a reproducible heurosric.
u/crimsonslaya wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
No SWE worth their weight needs friggin Formation.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
We're like personal training. Saying no professional athlete needs personal training is ridiculous. Some don't sure but not all.
In fact the top of the top professional athletes don't only have full-time traveling personal trainers, but they have full-time traveling masseuses, chefs and other staff and pay them cumulatively millions of dollars a year.
Of course that's not our vision or our market but we work with some excellent engineers to get into shape for interviews but the engineers are the ones doing the work.
u/crimsonslaya wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Your program is friggin useless dude. Any imbecile graduating from a CS program can land interviews/offers.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
based on how many comments you have that have been removed for harassment and trolling, I mean I guess that you're not actually reading anything or thinking about things like an intelligent person would process them and just attacking.
I very clearly said you have to have two plus years of experience right now. at least to benefit from what we do and it's been like that for over a year now and if you just graduated from a cs degree we would not accept you.
u/crimsonslaya wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Mike's a clown 🤡
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Funny that I don't have any of these problems until I point out anything critical about Codesmith's and then these random accounts seem to come out of the woodwork.
Reddit permanently suspended dozens of them already for creating a bunch of fake comments, threads and votes and all kinds of messed up stuff exclusively on Codesmith content and two claiming to represent Codesmith officialy.
Isn't it more weird to have a fake AMA where 1/3 of the comments are fake accounts having fake conversations?
That's not just one clown, it's a whole circus!
All I have is integrity and even though Reddit can't catch all this in real time, they eventually do. That's why those AMAs have so many deleted and suspended accounts on them when you go back 3 months later.
u/Suspicious-Beyond547 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Just went on their website, still so much misleading marketing there.
>March - August 2024 Outcomes
>Our alumni from this period accepted a total of 168 offers with an average base salary of $117,000.
If that's true I'll eat my keyboard
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I commented on this website months ago but I believe it's true and the problem is it conflates 2022, 2023, 2024 outcomes and outcomes for people that might have been looking for well over a year.
Second, the pacing with 168 offers in that period is much fewer offers per day than in their peak period, so even that number is not very good.
Again, marketing to try to make things look better.
u/ericswc wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
The only thing I don’t like about this take is that it isn’t like the in-major placement rate for degree earners is much better right now.
This is especially true if colleges reported things the way we want Bootcamps to. The dropout rate of computer science is very high.
I actu
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I agree with these arguments as well but Codesmith compared themselves to the best of the best. Marketing as an alternative to an elite grad school.
So they need to be compared to Stanford which is still like 100% of job seekers and average base salaries like $150K.
If the marketing is to be better than a non name CS degree then I might agree with that, or at least consider them closer.
u/Super_Skill_2153 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I wonder how much of that 5 million is actually profit though?
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Definitely not a lot, they had a lease paying like $70K a month in NYC, and they laid off the majority of staff at this point.
But $5M gives you raw resources to try to cut back and invest in AI and new programs that you wouldn't be able to do if you paused the program instead.
Some respectable bootcamps paused and pivoted to AI because I think it's the more ethical thing to do.
But delusionally continuing with SWE can backfire if the outcomes are too terrible and it destroys the brand instead and that's what we're now seeing here.
u/Super_Skill_2153 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
29% isn't that bad when you look at students who just graduated with a CS degree and still can't get a job a year after graduation.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Would you not agree that dropping from 90 to 70 to 29 though is something they should note and discuss a random students odds went from almost certain to the expected outcome being no placement in 6 months.
Codesmith defence in Feb 2024 was that everything is fine, the outcomes are strong, but people are taking 120 days instead of 90 days to place.
No discussion about how their placements are terrible but still better than CS.
Lastly, their market themselves as an alternative to an elite grad school and elot grad schools like Stanford have almost 100% placement and like $150K average salaries or something like that.
So I wouldn't accept a comparison to all CS but a comparison to the best schools.
During the boom times Codesmith posted something from Switch UP that their grads made more money than specific top CS schools.... let's see that same study in 2023/2024.
u/0044FF wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Knew*
u/michaelnovatireplied·
fixed
u/metrichustle wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
When people say get a degree, does it matter if you already have a non-stem degree and you just get the necessary coding skills through a bootcamp or a shorter program? Or are you suggesting even for those with a liberal arts degree to get a CS degree?
Ideally you get the creden
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I agree that scenario isn't so clear and when there was a market inefficiency for hiring SWEs a lot of companies came up with ideas:
1. Bootcamps
2. Post-BACC CS diplomas
3. WGU - self paced quick CS degree
4. EdX free courses from MIT and Stanford
5. Udacity "Nano Degree"
\-----------------------
Ultimately - you just can't become a solid SWE in 12 weeks or a few months, it's a fiction and a myth. It would be like deciding to become a Lawyer in 12 weeks if you are an engineer by training.
You can develop skills, hyperfocus and accelerate your learning, but some of the process of getting there is just letting ideas bake in when they bake in, getting involved with lawyers and listening to them inside and outside of work, etc....
\------------------------
So then why do people come to Reddit saying Codesmith or HackReactor changed their life and went from school teacher to $150K SWE in 12 weeks???
Prologue: market inefficiencies meant the industry needed more engineers than it had, and it's robust sources (CS degrees) couldn't product people fast enough, created an opening for people from the other sources to get 'a shot' at being a SWE.
1. Now look at people's long term careers. A number of anecdotes and posts and reviews are weeks/months after the hiring happened and not years later. A bunch of these people don't make it. Codesmith has notable grads that got a SWE job and transitioned out within a year. Now they transitioned to product manager, prompt engineer, test engineer, or other adjacent things - and they still credit Codesmith for the life changing experience - but a number of these people that loudly shouted about their amazing placement didn't make it as SWEs, were not prepared to be SWEs, the bootcamp didn't give them all the skills they needed, and even though they get 'a shot' because of the market, it didn't work out.
2a. For the people that DIDN'T make it later on: was the bootcamp still worth it for them? I'm sure it was! They might be in SWE adjacent roles that are great fits for them. But the marketing is all screwed up... like these people didn't have to go to a SWE bootcamp to become a SWE to end up as a technical product manager. They should have gone to a 'General Engineering Bootcamp" to learn engineering skills and mindset, so move into the tech industry (in any role). Codesmith's persistent marketing that it creates mid level and senior engineers and how they have gone all in on that despite my years of criticism on it, shows that Codesmith doesn't understand this point overall and that failure has caught up with them finally.
2b. For the people that DID make it: these people are the minority edge case. They are people that would have made it with or without Codesmith and could have gone to any reputable bootcamp. They could self study most of what they need and then network and participate in open source volunteer projects on their own OR go to a bootcamp to build out a minimal network of alumni to try to get that foot in the door. This group of people succeeds on the job not because of what they learned at the bootcamp, but because of their innate diligence, conscientiousness, work ethic, etc.. I know a lot of people in this bucket from Codesmith - people who put in 80 hour weeks on their first jobs to catch up and had to come up with ways so the company thought they did it all in 40 hours. What Codesmith does for these people is build their self confidence so that they can hustle their way into the job and believe they deserve to be there, instead of being so self-doubting they don't get the job. These people might credit Codesmith with that - deservedly so - and say it was worth the money. But this outcome 1 - doesn't happen to most people and if you see one of these people's success case, you shouldn't think it will happen to you necessarily, and 2 - Codesmith isn't transparent about this to anyone and similar to 2a, they might just not admit it to themselves and think all the results are because of their founder's brilliance instead. And similar to 2a, this failure caught up to them.
u/metalreflectslime wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
>2022: 606 students -> 389 graduates -> 70% employed in field within 6 months
In 2022, why are the percentage of students who graduated on time so low compared to other years?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Small typo (3 -> 5), it was 589 graduates and 389 placed. and 70% of 589 = 389.
u/AirplaneChair wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
2024 gonna have a 1% placement rate lol
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Here's my analysis:
Based on my close view of the market for the past 5 years, I would guess 2024 students will have similar placement rates to 2023 students.
Based on the anecdotes people share with me from Codesmith, there are hardly any placement and hardly any alumni engagement - specifically in the second half of 2024.
Codesmith itself loudly touts a CIRR-violating salary outcome and placement number on their website of 168 offers between March and August 2024 that we can also factor in.
1. Salaries they reported were DOWN from peak about 10% - when inflation ran rampant and salaries have gone up, this tanking salary shows that more people are taking non-SWE jobs, going back to their old jobs or taking temporary jobs as part of a longer term plan.
2. It's possible that people taking non SWE jobs and worse jobs instead of waiting for their dream SWE job will result in a higher placement rate. Codesmith can use LinkedIn and other sources to "confirm" a "placement" so if they can track down alumni going back to their old jobs, they can count them as a placement
For example, It's possible that with AI, people will take AI prompting / training jobs that are shorter term jobs that actually pay pretty well hourly, and they will count those as placements too, and fewer of these jobs existed in 2023.
3. Some of the recent placements someone shared with me (because of the insane LinkedIn representation they had) had things like a 3 week personal project presented as 2 years 11 months of work experience. So the longer these people job hunt, the longer this 'fake' work experience and the more likely their resume gets through. Someone job hunting for 3 years might look like a mid level engineer at that point, and if we see an increase in people placed 1+ years after finishing Codesmith, I suspect this is related - and also absolutely unethical that I won't stand for.
\--------------
So overall I think 2024 placement rates will probable be about the same on paper but very different makeup.
u/metrichustle wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Thanks for the in-depth write up. I agree with a lot of your points and always suspect at those who got a job from 3 ml the bootcamp when they had zero technical knowledge. Those hired usually had some stem-related degree.
So it still sounds like a post-bachelor diploma or degre
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I would also consider a masters degree. Some online good masters like this one [https://omscs.gatech.edu/](https://omscs.gatech.edu/)
u/fsjay723 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Every bootcamp is suffering song is not just Codesmith, they are all same .
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Yeah this is a very important point that these systemic issues are not just Codesmith and a lot of places have them.
The only program I know that has very transparent outcomes is Launch School, where they are small enough they can account AND discuss with commentary, each outcome and pattern, and they had something like a 70% 6 month placement rate for 2023 cohorts as well - which is on the positive side of flipping the coin.
u/fsjay723 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
launch school is pretty cheap right?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Launch School Core isn't that expensive but Capstone is very expensive, but the idea is that but the time you get to Capstone, you know it will have a high chance of working.
u/_cofo_ wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Well, it’s not surprising. The bootcamp itself is not the root of the problem. I feel bad though for the alumni who believed in the program and paid for that. This “short-cut” idea of success in swe it’s getting quite sketchy. Bootcamps need to improve their programs, no more fas
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I'm seeing a lot of bootcamps pivoting to AI in a cash grab, many paused their SWE programs while they do so.
I'm REALLY nervous about bootcamps trying to exploit their alumni for cash like Codesmith is with their AI/ML Leadership course.
I've reviewed the course and this free YouTube video from an industry leader with 10+ years of AI experience across two of the top research labs + OpenAI + Tesla Director of AI: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xTGNNLPyMI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xTGNNLPyMI)
I feel for Codesmith - their AI course is taught by some awesome individuals, but they have like 1 year of SWE experience each and it just doesn't stack up in any way to Andrei and Andrei's course is 100% free.
I quite frankly don't really know what anyone at Codesmith can do to catch up to someone like Andrei in teaching AI directly now that Andrei started a company to teach people AI.
I can see bootcamps moving towards taking materials from experts like Andrei and reviewing them and offering practice problems and projects and reviews and study groups and peer exercises etc....
But $5000 for 4 weeks of part time course... I don't think so.
u/Real-Set-1210 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
App academy is running 9% employed within 12 months. And those that got jobs, it was via connections, had a CS degree with experience but were coming back to the field, etc (meaning not organically via bootcamp).
u/michaelnovatireplied·
App Academy indefinitely paused their SWE program.
u/ronstoppable7 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Sigh. I don't know where to begin.
First off, thank you OP for posting this.
I currently have a 6 figure job in Entertainment, but I planned on going to Codesmith part-time in case I get laid off. I wanted a backup plan because Entertainment is really scary.
Now I don't know i
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Hi, a lot of people that go into Codesmith have non-technical degrees from pretty good schools and doing a CS masters can be an option. This is the best all around for brand, quality, cost: [https://omscs.gatech.edu/](https://omscs.gatech.edu/)
To clarify though there are two aspects to this post:
1. Codesmith hasn't degraded or gotten worse in the educational experience, it's the same it's always been + 5 new AI lectures. So comparing Codesmith to other bootcamps, it might still be one of the better ones. **BUT best of bad options doesn't mean you should choose it, it just means you probably shouldn't choose another bootcamp instead if Codesmith was the one for you.**
2. The lack of integrity (my opinion) / "carefully selected marketing" (fact) on their side (both in how they didn't tell anyone about this in Feb 2024 - when half of their students already hit the 6 month post grad mark) and how current students were also completely unaware of any broad outcomes (only anecdotally seeing their own cohorts outcomes) - could be a flag for anyone about Codesmith specifically. Now a lot of bootcamps have a reputation for 'stretching' their marketing and I can easily go through all of those as well, but there are others that do not - like Launch School. So in this aspect you do have choice.
u/Present_Event_7559 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
This is a form for the State of California (different compliance regulations), these outcomes aren't Codesmith-wide outcomes, they're just outcomes for California-based cohorts. Think people have got the wrong of the stick here
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Where do you see that?
1. Reports must encompass all locations and programs, not just California
2. The numbers are consistent with Codesmith's overall enrollment numbers
u/BayleeBaylee4578 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
This is a form for the State of California (different compliance regulations), these outcomes aren't Codesmith-wide outcomes, they're just outcomes for California-based cohorts. Think people have got the wrong of the stick here
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited
Where do you see that?
1. Reports must encompass all locations and programs, not just California
2. The numbers are consistent with Codesmith's overall enrollment numbers
u/Successful-Divide655 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
This sub is a hoot. When Codesmith posts statistics showing they have high placement everyone says they're fake and made up. Says the audit reports are worthless. When they post stats showing sharp dropoff, now all of a sudden they aren't fake? So which is it? If they've been abl
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I'm extremely loud about Codesmith in here and I have never once said that their CIRR results were fake. I argued with well documented evidence that graduates were exaggerating their experience, on average.
Why are you trying to polarize things? The world exists in shades of grey and things aren't just one way or the other.
Codesmith has a lot of good things about it and bad things about, as does pretty much everything.
u/annie-ama wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
First, I want to thank u/michaelnovati for taking the time to analyze and report on Codesmith’s published outcomes. Transparency and accountability are essential in this space, and we appreciate discussions that push for clarity.
**To be very clear from the outset:** the results
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Thanks for clarifying I'm working on updating post at the very top based on this response with the updated numbers in the next 5 to 10 minutes and feel free comment if you fee those numbers are not correct.
u/annie-ama wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
First, I want to thank u/michaelnovati for taking the time to analyze and report on Codesmith’s published outcomes. Transparency and accountability are essential in this space, and we appreciate discussions that push for clarity.
**To be very clear from the outset:** the results
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Done updating the numbers, I would like some clarity on the California students numbers because something isn't adding up with my math.
I can't really comment on the 12 month placements rates, I estimated in other comments a 50 to 60% 12 month placement rate using CIRR rules and regulations but we don't have those on previous analogous reports to compare to.
u/akmalhot wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
No one compared codesmith to Stanford.
Not saying that changes anything about your analysis.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Codesmith did and still does: [https://wellfound.com/company/codesmith](https://wellfound.com/company/codesmith)
"Codesmith is a team dedicated to democratizing elite education for a new era - the outcomes of an elite grad school but online and for 1/10th of the cost."
u/Other-Squirrel-2038 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
How good are yall if you can't even publish stats correctly 😂😂😂 dumb as FUCK
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I dont think this tone is great but it's worse than that.
First, the stats were wrong because they only included people who responded to reach out and submitted salary information at first. The "adjusted numbers" included all the people who never responded but appeared to have jobs somewhere on LinkedIn and count as placements who "did not respond" boosting the rate to 42%.
But the reason it is worse is because the newest numbers don't make any sense.
They published unofficial 12 months numbers but the 2022 numbers are copy paste from the 6 months report so the drop of 2023 12 month from 2022 six months doesn't look as bad.
On top of that, they had to check everyone's LinkedIn to count them as a placement so they are fully aware that all those grads are exaggerating and lying about their experience.
Finally, I proved they paid someone to post on Reddit - a person who posted bullshit about me and my company and then tried to get me banned by making up more bullshit.
The company is falling apart. Almost everyone has left or planning on leaving.
The could have followed what all of their peers did and shut down on a good note and instead they are going to shut down in disgrace.
u/Other-Squirrel-2038 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
It's a joke. My bf got accepted 2022 and finished April 2024 and has not been able to find 1 job and he has years of experience in product management and adtech. Told him it sounded like a bad investment immediately and he should do it part time if at all and would be better off
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I've been trying to talk to them privately but it's too hard. Too many lies and I can't trust anyone there. I talked to them in good faith and they did nothing.
I tried to extend the smallest olive brand and they did nothing.
They told me they care about fixing the problems I talk about but I think the only thing they care about is keeping me quiet. No changes except half of the staff left since I stsrted talking to them.
They have a rotten seed there and until the seed is removed nothing will ever change.
u/Other-Squirrel-2038 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
The whole company's rot all the way to the top. I was disgusted at the founder guy or whatevers opening lecture. Their great success story to hook the new cohorts in was someone who was driving ubers and spent all their money on codesmith and all their time and may or may not hav
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Surprisingly I was actually quite neutral until mid last year. I gave the pros and cons fairly and genuinely was in the middle. Recommended a number of people go there.
They didn't see things that way and paid that dude who went on Reddit and literally straight up defame me with lies... and no more neutrality until they apologize which they refuse to do and thought it was a joke that I asked for that.