I think that's fair, and maybe you were going to post explain more, if you are planning on it, I'll back off a bit because I absolutely know you wouldn't be doing this lightly and there is surely another side to it.
Codesmith is pumping out marketing about their most recent outcomes as exceptional outcomes, even though they tanked - and while they acknowledge the market they pat themselves on the back still. Internally almost all their lead instructors quit or were laid off except for one - who is now leading two entire tracks (as of two weeks ago) - and one person who has been teaching for a few months was promoted to be a lead instructor as well.
I'm exhausted with leaders, like Turing too, who want to pour their heart and soul into something with such good intentions but seeing all of that passion make people delusional - desperately trying to keep the thing alive without realizing the industry is burning down.
I admire Launch Academy for pausing gracefully, and a few others that explicitly opted to 'preserve their legacy' (their words) and shut down instead of taking the industry's credibility…
I'm from Canada originally and a lot of friends think they have no problem driving in the snow here. But the problem is 1. Donner Pass has insane white-out level winds that blow snow all over. 2. OTHER DRIVERS! That's the most dangerous part is the person who hasn't driven on snow slipping all over.
Hahaha yeah a Urus for sure! I don't know anything about cars, but the height off the ground I feel like would be a problem with a Lambo, I feel like you need some clearance with the snow and during heavy storms there's a good few inches on the ground in the pass.
I'm going to keep trying to warn people about going to bootcamps for the wrong reasons, but apparently only 12 students are impacted so not that many went.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1j3cc7n/the\_present\_and\_future\_of\_the\_turing\_school/](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1j3cc7n/the_present_and_future_of_the_turing_school/)
After all of that, they said they wouldn't close and would run through 2025
\+1 to they aren't actual scammers and they care and tried hard. I'm disappointed in how it's happening when they could have thrown in the towel two months ago on a more positive note. But I didn't realize that only 12 students are displaced by this and they are working with them to make sure they have a good exit.
I hope people stop giving me so much shit for generally being negative about bootcamps right now, I've been very persistent about trying to be realistic about things for a good year now and people keep attacking me about it.
The people I see being successful right now are taking a good year to get a job AFTER their bootcamp so 'need a job quick' is not a good combo for coding bootcamps right now and I would be very concerned if a bootcamp makes you feel otherwise :(
I don't know enough about Design bootcamps to give a very confident response.
Designers in general are also impacted by AI - both positively and negatively. AI lets engineers build pretty good designs using AI without a designer but AI also lets designers build out more stuff without engineers.
So the job isn't going away. The bar is very high though.
Like if you are a junior engineer being replaced by AI, the same thing applies to designers - if the designs are just textbook off the shelf HCI 101, then AI can do that too better than you.
I would enter design right now if you have extremely good 'taste'. Designers with good taste are just as valuable as senior SWEs.
AI hasn't changed the interview FORMATs yet, but it's starting to change how people are interpreting them. For example, someone can (and always could have) cheat on coding interviews with AI, so it's making engineers focus really hard (and companies train engineers to conduct interviews this way) on the coding process and demonstrating strong coding thinking and understanding and not just writing code and calling it a day.
I'm not sure at Cap1 but at big tech, there is a bit more weight on behavioral and SD. Not a complete change. But let's say someone got a 'weak hire' on SD, and hire on all others, that might have been more obviously a hire in the past and maybe we take a deeper look into the SD now for why it was a 'weak hire'.
Cap1 has always had a more fixed process, I think they ask one of four SD questions all the time haha, so I suspect they won't be weighting things differentl…
Hi, It's going to be very hard imo. I would take as many programming classes as you can in college and then I would try to get an "analyst" job that is not programming, but involves data crunching and systematic thinking and then try to make the jump on the job (by doing part time training on the side OR being trained internally at the company).
Sorry to hear that and I understand the deflated feeling.
I would next look into SWE adjacent jobs that leverage your past experience.
For example, if you were customer facing - Solutions Engineer or Support Engineer. If you were on the business side of things Partner Engineer or Business Engineer.
You might still have a hard time though and you can lean even more into your past experience. For example being a customer support agent at a big tech company might give you a pathway to becoming a Support Engineer internally. Or working in IT Operations might give you a path to Business Engineer.
Getting into a really good tech company in any role really.
I even know someone who went from working in an Apple Store to doing corporate training-type work at Apple to then doing that job at Google.
Hi, I have a few ideas but would want to get to know you more personally to give better advice.
1. You can downplay your "senior titles" and just put them as "Software Enegineer" and produce a resume that fits more a canonical FAANG "mid level". Having a FAANG mid level resume might give you a senior title at startups too without having "senior" on there.
2. The DS&A/problem solving coding interview expectations though do NOT DEPEND ON LEVEL! At Meta, the bar was the same from intern through senior (and was even a bit lower for senior :S). So if this is your blocker, you have to practice things like NeetCode and Blind75. And the super important thing right now is to not just check off the boxes alone in your room/office, but to develop stronger problem solving muscles so you can consistently communicate a clear problem solving process in those interviews. It sounds like you are all ove…
Hi, a lot to dive into here!
There is a back and forth because of bootcamps marketing and because of disgruntled students who flip a table and doom and gloom.
The reality is in between, but sadly it's closer to doom and gloom right now.
I don't know if you saw, but Turing School is abruptly shutting down as of this morning and transferring students elsewhere and we see some of the best bootcamps shutting down left right and center.
This isn't a back and forth, or a sign of hope, and the "back and forth" you see is remaining bootcamps grasping at straws to try to not have a similar fate.
I have insider connections at many bootcamps and the ones surviving are NOT doing well internally. Either cutting back, losing employees, or the 'bootcamp division' is being neglected by a parent company. Launch School is the only program I know that is basically run by the founder and their cohort n…
Yes but goodwill + delusion about the market doesn't help anyone even if it helps you sleep at night.
Why would other programs not face the abrupt and insurmountable problems that Turing faced?
Hi, I said this in another comment, but I would try to get a longer stint at one company and show career progression. If you can do that then you'll have an easier time making the next jump.
Rather than being concerned about a stack or technology, I would focus on getting to a leading edge company building technology you excited about and then learning from them on the inside. It's more efficient and you'll get more out of it than trying to beef up your resume with stacks to check of boxes.
If you aren't employed or you don't have a long enough stint at a company, I would prioritize trying to to that at a less "exciting" company first and then transitioning later.
Hey, I'm not hear to talk about Formation so you can DM me and I can give more specific advice. In general, Formation helps people with 2+ SWE YOE prepare for generalist interviews, or the generalist portion of top tier tech interviews. It is costly, and not everyone thinks it's worth it, but our surveys and feedback forms show that most people who do it, do find it's worth it (either a little or a lot) so I would look into it and see if you are a good fit and then consider the cost carefully.
Well Bill Gates was writing the first software for Microsoft 40/50 years ago and while EVERYTHING has changed, NOTHING has changed at the same time.
I read his new biography and the grit, curiosity, obsessive problem solving, are all human traits that were relevant then and are relevant now and will be relevant in 40 years.
40 years ago though CS degrees barely existed, and it was called an offshoot of "Math" at the time.
So 40 years from now, we're going to have "computer-adjacent gritty, curious, problem solvers" but I highly doubt we'll call them software engineers anymore.
I'm not a futurist or economist and I don't know what the problems humans we'll have in 40 years. I can imagine and guess - everything from we'll be interplanetary to we'll be extinct. But if we have problems, we'll have engineers.
It's not going to happen overnight, so I can maybe think a little sooner, like…
One advice and only one advice: HUSTLE FOR INTERNSHIPS.
\- If you can't find any, volunteer for professors or for school organizations doing SWE work to try to get something on your resume for next year
\- Look into industry programs for college students that are like 'pre-internships', Google Scholars, Netflix X Formation, Meta U. A lot of these shut down unfortunately.
\- Relentlessly apply for internships all over the country and message recruiters just trying to get into the pipelines wherever you can.
If you are graduating and don't have internships, I would consider doing a masters or extending a yearto buy more time.
Hey, you might be overgeneralizing AI and you won't be forever 'behind' in AI.
ML specifically - it's very high demand right now. You'll probably be behind the curve for leading edge ML research, but a master's could be a good way to get an Applied ML job or ML Data Engineer role - roles on the border where having ML knowledge helps you stand out amongst SWEs, rather than feeling behind as an ML Researcher/Academic.
I wouldn't see a master's a away of upleveling to Senior though - it's a way to open up breadth of positions at the same level.
You'll have to get to senior ON THE JOB, by gaining experience in complex systems and demonstrating the scope of responsibility and impact that the company wants to see at the senior level.
All things equal I would look at the school and opportunities for industry internships that upper years have been getting that you might be able to get.
CS -> SWE/Design/PM
Math/Stats -> Data Analyst/Data Scientist
Both can -> Data Engineer.
I would probably take overlapping classes to keep your options the most open, but once you get that first internship, assuming you still like it, I would stay in that lane and keep trying to get better and better internships in the same field so you come out strongest as a new grad.
Hi, three things:
1. Maximize your current job assuming you have one. You want to show that you have longer tenure at fewer companies, and career progression at your job, rather than too much job hoping. So focusing on getting promoted at your job might help more than job hopping to a higher title or salary.
If you have been job hopping or don't have a job right now I would have to look at your resume more personally to try to build the strongest narrative you can to show signs of the above \^\^\^. Like if you had a job where you weren't promoted but you grew in influence or scope, you can show that clearly on your resume.
2. With 5 YOE you should apply to FAANG "mid level" or smaller company senior roles yeah. Apply you strengths, not what you want to learn. If you want to learn full stack, go for front end roles that play to your stengths and then try to learn full stack stuff on th…
Are you confident that bootcamps like Codesmith are in good shape to take students? If they staff are leaving left right and center you might just be pushing off your problem to someone else and I don't think that's a responsible solution unless you are doing your due diligence.
I don't think the interview processes are broken. There's a saying, 'they are broken but they are less broken than the alternative'.
Anyone criticizing them should try to understand why they are the way they are first before making assumptions.
It's not stupidity and it's not gatekeeping.
DS&A problem solving interviews:
1. abstract away thousands of tech stacks to give everyone an equal footing
2. can be repeated consistently so thousands of candidates can have consistent interview processes
3. allow engineers to demonstrate the problem solving they want to see on the job in a problem that CAN be solved in 25 minutes (what real world problem can be solved that fast).
At Meta, the cost of doing just 1 interview was so high they looked for any reason to shorten interviews. It's why their DS&A are only 45 minutes and not an hour!
**It's all about reducing false positives for the mo…
Hi, fun to think about, millions and millions of lines of code later, all I've seen, but I'm super sentimental and it's fun to think about going back to beginning.
In the USA tech job market, it's a meritocracy (overall, but it's not perfect haha), so whatever you do, you have to be better at it than most other people to succeed at that.
I REALLY wanted to do astrophysics but I'm not good enough at complex math so it's not the area for me. I REALLY wanted to do quantum computing because it sounded cool, but I'm not good enough at raw logic to work on fundamental quantum computing paradigm development.
I'm extremely good at focus and I'm really good at absorbing large systems and connecting the dots within them to get stuff done and turn the gears.
So in talking this out, I guess my advice here is to try to figure out what you are exceptional at early on by trying a lot of things and…
You'll hear people answer this on both sides and the reason is that 'it depends' haha.
It's not a good time to career transition into the career "Software Engineer", but it's an amazing time to learn how to write code because AI is going to give people who can code a leg up in almost ANY job.
In the bootcamp space you see way too much on both sides because you have these programs turning you into a canonical "Software Engineer" which just doesn't work at scale right now, but they might prepare people ok for the second bucket of "learn some code to better at my old job" - which is a completely different marketing goal but might make people thing a SWE bootcamp is still worth it if that's their goal.
So it's confusing for sure and hard to navigate, it's one of the reasons I'm in this subreddit all the time trying to help people navigate.
Finally, there is a very small group of hundred…
Hello! Good observation.
The junior market isn't completely gone or being completely replaced by AI. The top tech companies are hiring INTERNS from the top schools and those people are getting entry level jobs and progressing.
The thing that changed is instead of it being like 5 juniors : 2 mid levels : 1 senior, the ratios are more like 2 juniors: 2 mid levels: 1 senior.
And I think AI makes those ratios work rather than just flat out replacing the juniors.
It's all money at the end of the day - junior engineers LOSE MONEY at top tier companies, but the reason they got hired is that the 2 year investment to get them productive broke even and paid off afterwards.
AI can both help and hurt that. It can help by making juniors progress FASTER and be break even SOONER. But it can also empower mids and seniors to be more productive themselves and raise the bar of what "break even" expect…
Hi, I didn't co-founder a bootcamp so I don't know. My partner started a bootcamp in 2017 and it closed in 2019 and we together started Formation to help people in the industry already prepare for interviews and level up, rather than trying to do 0 to 1.
I agree that bootcamps aren't working right now. Just this morning Turing School announced they are shutting down abruptly. Codesmith has lost most of it's staff and instructors and they say they aren't going anywhere, but things clearly aren't good. App Academy and Launch Academy are both still paused for all SWE programs.
To me, the bootcamp era is over and I agree with you.
That said, even though the bootcamp MODEL doesn't work, there are INDIVIDUALS that are gifted or have the work ethic to outwork 99% of their peers to succeed and those people don't need a bootcamp to transition into tech, but they just need something small to…
Hey,
1. It's oversaturated for entry level and not for experienced engineers. My personal approach here isn't to choose the markable area but to win in your best area. Whatever is your 10X area you have raw passion for and want to do the most, do that, and then outwork 99% of your peers to be the person that stands out in that area.
2. I don't know enough about the latest cybersecurity roles, other than just reading the reports that it's in demand :P. I'm not seeing changes in demand at the FAANG companies (it always was in demand!). If you are considering bootcamps and just want to get into tech and not necessarily be a SWE, I would strongly look into it - don't listen to marketing - actually dig into it and considering it.
Hi 👋,
* 3 years of experience as a SWE should line you up nicely for an E4 Mid Level Meta SWE role. You can also consider their adjacent roles like Partner Engineer and Business Engineer if you get rejected from the normal E4 "Product Engineer", "Infrastructure Engineer" roles.
* There is absolutely a bias against bootcamp grads - I've seen it bluntly from close friends who are recruiters. And the reason is because bootcamp grads OVERALL don't perform as well on the job because they are behind in experience. It's not personal and not about potential.
* So I would probably exclude them and focus on your current job, the most important things are
* **1. SHOW CAREER PROGRESSION (if you got promoted, don't just list you highest title, but show the dates and show you progressed quickly up the later)**
* **2. IDEALY DON'T JOB HOP - staying at the same company and progressing is much better…
Hi,
Mistakes people make:
* Jumping around too much based on what they read online. i.e. jumping from certifications -> projects -> open source -> courses.
* Rushing through things thinking they understand it. I find people have to review the same concept a number of times patiently over time before it sticks and that's GOOD.
* Putting too much work into looking superficially good on paper over the substance of what you do (i.e. building a portfolio you think will look good)
* Lying on resumes to get the first job
How to avoid?
* Focus - do a breadth first search to find what path is likely to be good for you (i.e. certifications -> consulting, or open source -> open source companies, or leetcode/fundamentals focused -> top tier company), and then stick to it to the end. If you were wrong, you'll struggle, but you have a higher chance of making it over someone who does 25% of every…
Hi all, I'm getting started reviewing all the questions and will start responding to each and every one over the course of the next few hours! If you have more questions, keep adding them!
Huge rollercoaster and quite frankly I'm pretty upset.
Turing had announced a graceful closure earlier this year and then 'upon reflection' and upon raising donations, decided to stay open at least through 2025.
And now they are ending on a bad note, abruptly shutting down And throwing current students into the wild mid program, which is far worse than the original shutdown plan.
I know from my conversations with Jeff that this must be really hard and not something done lightly and he'll do what he needs to do to help the students the best he can.
But really this is why bootcamps that are struggling need to strongly consider shutting down when things are still ok and end gracefully because stuff like this burns your legacy.
I'm not selling anything and responding personally and because this is a community I moderate and am most active in. I put something in the disclaimer but I can edit that to make it clearer.
Formation is an interview prep mentorship program for SWEs with 2 years of experience and not a bootcamp or a product for bootcamp grads. So there is some overlap, but I'm not planning on answering questions about that or talking about it in my responses.
👋 AMA: I’m Michael - ex-Meta Principal Engineer + #1 code committer, now co-founder at Formation.dev + interview expert. 📌🎈💥 AI popped the Bootcamp & LeetCode bubbles. Ask me anything about how tech careers have changed in 2025, how to stand out, and what still gets you hired. No 🍬🧥. No 🐂💩
# TUESDAY APRIL 15th, 10AM PT/1PM ET: ADD QUESTIONS ANYTIME
Hey everyone, I'm Michael Novati - a friendly moderator of the sub, former Principal Engineer and the #1 code committer at Meta, and now co-founder and lead engineer at Formation.dev. I've done hundreds of technical interviews at Meta, built some big stuff, and even had an industry archetype called "Coding Machine" modeled after my work.
Here's the blunt truth: The hiring landscape in tech has drastically shifted in 2025. The bootcamp-to-job pipeline and the LeetCode grind have both been heavily disrupted by AI. These changes broke…
Feel free to DM me too, but if you ghosted them and disappeared for some amount of time, I would offer to pay the refund price for the time you spent there.
If you were there for a few weeks and all you got was a resume review and then quickly got a job, then I don't know what to offer. Like it's fair to pay proportional to the value you got. Like if you did 20 mock interviews, or if you did the complete curriculum they have or something, like I could see a case for charging closer to the full amount even if you didn't love it.
But if you literally did nothing and happened to get a job, I would try to negotiate something lower.
Also, if you have a track record of complaining or giving feedback throughout your time, that could be helpful too.
If you have a track record of positive feedback and are complaining now that will work against you. If you frequently gave feedback and they con…
Have you tried talking to them about it? You did sign up and signed a contract so you'll have to take some responsibility, but if you explain what you did and offer something reasonable, maybe they will agree to have you withdraw retroactively and pay the refund price?
I also recommend talking to people first in good faith if you have a dispute before going public, unless you already did that.
Yes, I said "did something" because their LinkedIn has two other SWE jobs during the time he was at Hyperloop and one Data Scientist job that overlaps that timeframe as well.
He also says he was driving for Uber but his LinkedIn he was an "analyst" at Uber for 3 years.
Like all in all this is a good path but there seems to be a heck of a lot more to this story than he said in the video.
Which is what I see very commonly with Codesmith grads. Their stories on these blogs and videos don't match what these people say on paper.
Same with the Capital One one you are sharing. Great outcome but something in the story is not adding up.
I feel like everyone at Codesmith cares more about making up a story that looks like Codesmith helped these people get mid level and senior level jobs instead of acknowledging the reality of how it happens when it does happen.
1. This person was the equivalent of a top tier low mid-level/high entry level and while he said he had zero experience in that blog post, his LinkedIn says he had a year of "freelancing" experience, so he likely lied about his YOE to get the mid-level job and then performed well to get the senior job.
2. Codesmith alumni (outside of Codesmith itself) cheat on Cap1 interviews by sharing all of the questions they ask and having currently employees feed answers to people for those questions.
If he got promoted relatively quickly maybe he deserved the job! But to get the job it's more likely he "hustled" a lot to get it. Many people lie on resumes and cheat on interviews so this isn't a Codesmith thing, but since Codesmith denies any kind of supporting of cheating and lying, they can't get credit for helping with that piece, nor can they take credit for how smart this guy is inherently. S…
Video Unavailable. But I think the person you are referring to had other jobs - his LinkedIn has a number of overlapping jobs and I'm not exactly sure what he did, but he did something for five years and THEN got hired at NVIDIA, which seems like a very reasonable path.
I'm that mod and I'll I'm going to say is you are "permanently suspended" and I highly suspect your account was one of the many astroturfing Reddit for Codesmith, adding evidence to my point.
My company doesn't do anything related to coding bootcamps and I write bad stuff about people being dishonest, sketchy, and lacking integrity.
OP first blocked me so I couldn't reply on this, then got permanently suspended - possibly part of Codesmith promotional accounts that they use to astroturf Reddit.