Basically the ones at top tier companies that pay fairly competitively and have a high chance of converting to a full role: Dropbox Ignite, Asana UP, Twitter, Twilio, Airbnb, Twitch, Microsoft Leap.
\+1 to making sure you have some basic coding skills before going to a bootcamp, even if they will accept you regardless.
I comment all the time about CIRR, because Codesmith people adamantly defend CIRR as the "mic drop" answer and I strongly believe anyone should look at many factors, INCLUDING CIRR.
Getting the highest salary out of a bootcamp is not necessarily better for your career. Getting a lower paying $100K apprenticeship at a top tier company is much better than a $125K job at an agency for example.
Nothing against them, but a lot of people don’t know the bootcamps pay them like $1000 (2020 number) [EDIT: Derek believes it's 10% rather than fixed number] or something around that for every student that signs via career karma. I don’t have a problem with them as long as people know this.
Upfront is good when you have the money available and it won’t impact your life too much by spending it all upfront.
ISAs work magically under two circumstances: you get a job at the end, and you increase your salary substantially such that the percentage removed from your new salary still leaves you with more take home than you use to have.
So the problem with ISAs and bootcamps is most bootcamps have fairly poor job placement rates, especially when you factor in how many people drop out. And the jobs do get might not be those six figure jobs on average.
Similar to if you pay upfront and left early and get a partial refund, if you sign an ISA and leave early you should expect to pay a partial amount
too. Read the contract to see what that is and if it’s reasonable.
I wouldn’t expect a difference in treatment. It’s on the program’s interest to have you get a great job as soon as po…
I worked at Facebook for a long time and was involved in university recruiting. They pretty much went down the top 15ish list and had a recruiter dedicated to each school at the time. They would sprinkle in or double down on schools that had strong alumni at Facebook already, and those alumni would help recruit there.
More recently though they have spread out to more schools. There is also a lot of demographic trends focusing on these schools, so they also make an effort to recruit at schools with students of a wider range of demographic backgrounds that might not be in the "top 15" lists but have strong programs.
Any of these top 15 schools will give you access to these on campus recruiters, starting with internships, and building a strong resume for a competitive new grad offer process. I would say that the top four (MIT, CMU, Stanford, Cal) will get the most attention from these t…
The background check companies aren't giving you like a pass fail and instead there are simply checking from outside sources if the information that you provided on the background check lines up with those sources. And any differences are flagged her review.
So if a company doesn't exist anymore, your side of the form will say information about the company and their side will say like unable to contact, or company does not exist. And most likely anyone looking at their final report will just ignore that if it seems legitimate.
I did a background check where the company like filled out their side in correctly and like they put the wrong job title and listed it under the salary field and that was like flagged as a difference but no one cared. I was doing a background check for Facebook and I had done an internship in the past on Facebook in the background check company couldn't verify th…
Since Launch School has a mastery based learning model without any fixed time-frames I would probably start it sooner and sink the $200 a month because it will give you a head start. Keep in mind that core is meant more for learning and the capstone is the program with strong job results, that is much more selective and small.
I think if you were to do Springboard, you would do it right after college and if would be fine for aiming for am entry level job on the lower compensation side. Springboard has fairly rigorous requirements for their job guarantee but if you follow them they have fairly good placement rates. The salaries though are much lower than Launch School capstone.
Hopefully others can fill in some gaps with outcomes for Launch School core if you were expecting a job straight from there.
If you are going to do Springboard full time and go all in, I would also consider the…
App Academy in SF. Rithm has/had a nice SF office but they went full remote.
EDIT: see below, "Rithm’s offices are open on a limited basis for longer sprints/projects/social gatherings, but all lectures are done live on Zoom"
So I don't know 100% but the spouse of a co-worker has worked on running the Amazon Tech Academy at Amazon and we (Formation.dev - disclosure I am co-founder) worked with someone in ATA to help them convert faster.
My understand of ATA is that you have to work at Amazon for some time first (1+ year), and then are eligible to apply to it. It's a fairly small and competitive program and still very early stages - even though Amazon is enormous. At the end, you can interview immediately for SDE 1 and if you pass you're done, if you don't you do an internship at Amazon and get another shot (this was \~1 year ago, might not be true anymore). My understanding is not EVERYONE got jobs immediately after the ATA but the person we worked with was in the first cohort I believe(?) and did.
Now Kenzie and BloomTech offer a program that teaches the same curriculum as ATA, but you have to pay them dir…
I think you can apply for jobs and get one, but don't expect to get relocation fees paid. If the office is in person and they wanted in person interviews, which is very rare nowadays, then that could be a problem as well. I would be upfront about this but saying that you would move back when you got the job. You don't want to appear sketchy that you are pretending to live in the USA while actually WORKING from Europe as that will cause HR nightmares.
There are a ton of reasons and they depend a bit on the specific companies as well.
1. A lot of big tech junior developers get hired via internships or new grad recruiting via college. So when roles are open, there might just be a single job rec amongst a sea of others, or even a separate, seasonal, website for these roles.
2. Smaller companies tend to not have the resources to train and grow junior engineers. The amount of impact an engineer has grows exponentially, so a big company thinking long term might have the resources to grow senior engineer on their own. Smaller companies need people who can code right off the bat.
3. Job recs tend to overstate required experience. There have been a flood of bootcamp grads applying for entry level jobs and it makes sorting through applicants challenging. Some people exaggerate their experience in controversial ways (eg. listing group projec…
Codesmith doesn’t prepare people with zero prior experience for mid level and senior roles.
I know they say they do, and edge cases do happen, but they are not using the canonical FAANG leveling system when they say 70% of people get mid level jobs and 25% get senior roles. According to their audited data 80% of people make under $140K and a mid level FAANG engineer is making at least $150K base and likely $175K…. so clearly they are using different definitions here.
Sorry, Friday was busy, I’m here! Unfortunately Formation can’t help if you have zero experience. We take on a small number of people which zero experience case by case but they have significant amounts of self studying or previous programs that have brought them to a hirable bar.
We have to be very firm about this bar because our program works very well for people with experience, 81% of all people placed have gone to top tier companies, average base salary around $135K. So we are a specific product for a specific market that works very well and not a bootcamp alternative for most people.
Also plus one to Derek’s advice, find a program that is right for you, not that other people
say is the best.
Expecting less from Reddit... like when someone has a preconceived notion of something because they don't like you and they look for any piece information, even if it's provably false, from anonymous sources, and use it out of context to validate their beliefs and say something defamatory like "A former fellow from Formation.dev felt the urge and reached out to me to essentially said it is a predatory practice and inflate their numbers."
You should read all of my comments on Reddit across the board instead of this tunnel vision on Codesmith with a combative win-lose attitude. I'm not here to battle, I'm here to try to give people helpful advice and read all of my comments history to see that.
Yeah read the article, so it's basically a completely separate program that's not affiliated with UCF other than some of the student funding aspects. The problems outlined above are that a lot of people feel mislead by the both the school and by Trilogy. Students find out the school has nothing at all to do with the bootcamp and have been fairly enraged, and the school's name doesn't matter either.... Trilogy just pays the school to use the school's name (and not the other way around).
So you should be researching Trilogy rather than UCF.
Hi, just a note that this Bootcamp at UCF is operated by Trilogy and is common across many schools, so the reputation of the University isn't really relevant to the bootcamp itself.
There was a recent article in the WSJ about this: [https://www.wsj.com/articles/that-fancy-university-course-it-might-actually-come-from-an-education-company-11657126489](https://www.wsj.com/articles/that-fancy-university-course-it-might-actually-come-from-an-education-company-11657126489)
I'm not judging the programs here, but just clarify that point because it sounds like you might be making your decision partly because of the school's reputation.
I know one person who did the non-capstone and no one who did the capstone. I don't know how rigorous the content is but I 100% agree that mastery-based learning without a fixed timeframe is very effective for getting the most people possible to learn the materials. "The devil's in the details" and I have not evaluated those details, but conceptually I think it's a good idea.
I would consider it as an alternative to NuCamp, and Udacity. I'm not sure if you can do the capstone without doing core first either.
It’s a bit early but the way the cycle works is recruiters have headcount targets for a given school for the fall cycle. If you are borderline earlier on, you have a higher chance of getting an offer compared to towards the end. If there are fewer slots, they might hold out to interview the remaining candidates and choose the best ones, even if you might have gotten an offer earlier in the cycle.
It does depend on the company and a lot of factors but my general advice is earlier is better… but you have to be ready. If you aren’t ready and fail interviews that’s much worse than waiting a tad longer and feeling more confident.
Springboard licensed its curriculum from Rithm and Colt Steele so while it doesn’t get constant updates like at Rithm the raw curriculum is decent. You learn a little more at your own pace and watch videos rather than attend lectures and work with others. Review is done by industry mentors who are paid to help, which has its pros and cons. Codesmith for example has the senior students mentor the junior students, and the Fellows mentor and teach, and then hires back former students as instructors. Springboard has mentors that work in the industry. Industry mentors have more insight into what is important on the job, but current and former students might be better at actually teaching. Rithm is in the middle, small classes, experienced and good instructors, solid curriculum. I would say Springboard is more akin to Launch School than the other two options.
I would take the Amazon Apprentice role assuming you get it because doing well, converting full time will be an easier path to entry level FAANG. I work with a good number of bootcamp grads, and you might spend a year at the mom and pop shop, then have to spend time studying and preparing for FAANG interviews and the actually interview. This is still a good path, and you'll likely get and SDE I or SDE II role at that point in time and financially might even come out ahead, but if your goal is to get to SDE I in about a year, the apprenticeship is a more sure pathway and more in your control to perform well on the apprenticeship.
A compromise might be to ask the mom and pop shop if you can work as a contractor in that month in between. And if you don't get Amazon you can convert back to full time. Might not work if they don't have the budget, but worth a shot.
Yeah Amazon is the most approachable FAANG company, but you have to find the right team, right manager. Sometimes if it's a little too easy there's a catch, and some teams at Amazon have a culture of quickly correctly for hires that are not performing well. Amazon overall is a fantastic company though and I highly recommend people give it a shot out of bootcamps. You typically get an OA first that is fairly hard DS&A problems and if you've been studying for a while after your bootcamp you have a shot for sure.
Thanks for the offer, I have worked with many (10+) Codesmith alumni, instructors, interviewed some myself, reviewed many resumes, etc... and thank you for being diplomatic in your post!
I don't doubt Codesmith's numbers at all. I also think Will Sentance is a fantastic teacher and is a brilliant person.
I have two completely valid criticisms of Codesmith that are not meant to mean the whole program is a giant scam and evil, they are very valid criticisms:
1. I strongly disagree with their definition of mid-level and senior jobs. I have brought this up to many people with 5+ years of industry experience and people have had much harsher things to say that I do about this.
2. I don't like how people, like yourself on your LinkedIn, list the OSP work as software engineering work at a company. Yours listed 4 months of experience but you had 14 commits over 21 days. I spent 2 mins looking…
You are correct, it's incredibly hard and competitive, and you likely won't get one, but that's the most broadly approachable level of FAANG job from a bootcamp if you have no experience. On a case by case basis you might be able to get an entry level FAANG job as well, so I would need to give personal advice. I know a bunch of people at Codesmith, App Academy, and Hack Reactor, spend significant amounts of time studying Leetcode on their own to aim for entry level FAANG jobs, but I'm specifically talking about the preparation that the programs themselves provide.
It's an acronym that stands for Facebook (or Meta) - Apple - Amazon - Netflix - Google.
Some people use it to mean those five companies (knows for strong engineering cultures, high compensation, and impactful technology), others use it to mean top tier companies in general, such as Microsoft, and others.
Generally companies that have the top engineers working at them, have engineering and product driven cultures, have the highest compensation, and have jobs with the largest impact.
Not everyone wants to work at companies like this, or they don't want to work there for their first job. Others do. Others want to work there first, and then want to move on to other companies.
But in the current market, most people see having these companies on your resume at a minimum as a golden ticket to open doors and extremely high compensation that can be life changing.
I use a Hollywood analogy s…
There are two cases I've seen frequently with open source:
1. Hack Reactor people list a section under "experience" called "Personal Projects" that is a list of their personal projects on GitHub
2. Codesmith people list a section under experience called "Open Source Projects" which are personal projects similar to Hack Reactors and not really open source. Most people separately list a larger group open source project as "software engineer experience" for a "company". These projects aren't really open source projects as almost all have no outside contribution and are not worked on after Codesmith (you can look at the GitHub histories for all of them yourself). The projects are great group projects but they aren't paid and slightly controversial... I know a lot of people on the hiring side that fell for this trick in a resume screen and thought the people had paid work experience and real…
Yeah you have to watch out for programs that have a low entry bar and are very expensive. You are looking for a "real" masters CS program. I'm not up to date on what the schools offer since COVID and how things work. I know in the past people have done part a time masters at Stanford yeah. If none of them offer a legit masters now then I wouldn't do them.
GTech's online program is decent but I don't consider in this bucket yeah, like I would be on the fence between that and a top tier bootcamp. Depending on goals and you.
Hi, I have some comments that I'll kind of put in bullet form to be a bit more succinct
* A lot of people move from accounting and music into tech, some of the abstraction in doing books comes in handy!
* If you are still working full time as an accountant and are not in a rush, a part time masters at top 10 CS school could be good and open up "new grad" opportunities via the school. If you really have like 1-3 years, and get get into a truly top tier masters program, this might be a good option.
* There are no bootcamps that have a high success at placing a MANGA. There are people here and there, but they are a fairly small percentage right out of bootcamps. People do tend to make it to FAANG in a couple years+ and that's a more realistic goal. Mid-tier and lower-tier companies are the most common outcomes. At Formation (disclosure: co-founder, not a bootcamp, NOT recommending for you,…
The Launch School CEO explained this in a different thread but basically it's not possible to learn a CS degree worth of concepts in 12 weeks (or a master's degree worth as one bootcamp says). So their approach is to have you work through concepts at your own pace and actually learn stuff, but it takes much longer time and can't be accelerate with long days.
At Formation we have a mastery approach too and it takes the average person maybe 8 to 12 weeks (varies wildly) to get their data structures and algorithms fundamentals alone to a solid place. And it's not because our program sucks. It's because people learn at different paces and most don't learn at a bootcamp pace.
The people that learn at a bootcamp pace and actually absorb more quickly are edge cases and they might learn even faster with a different approach. As the Launch School CEO says, the better programs select for these p…
Yeah he's not an expert in bootcamps, most of his writing is about insider news for very experienced engineers, but it was interesting he called them out specifically. I don't think he has an affiliation to them as he is very clear about his ethics.
Hi, I've found this subreddit has a tremendous amount of support for Codesmith, many people claiming right off the bat that it's the top bootcamps, in a league of it's own, etc... but the concrete reasons tend to come down to CIRR reports.
Launch School's capstone has extremely strong outcomes as well and I feel like you are fairly transparent about them in your Twitter updates.
Myself, I think there is a right program for the right person so I don't pick a favorite and quite frankly Formation does well if all bootcamps do well, but while you're here do you have anything to say about what types of people looking for a top bootcamps might be good for Launch School over other programs?
Highly recommended advice for bootcamps grads and the job market from Gergely (The Pragmatic Engineer)
Full post released today is a goldmine of great advice: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-software-engineers/
Transparent Disclosures: I am not affiliated with Gergely, I’ve briefly chatted with him and I have contributed to a piece about Facebook work culture and engineering levels. He mentions Launch School and I am not affiliated with them either. I am the co-founder of Formation.dev which could introduce bias as we help people
with 1 - 3 years experience get top tier roles, and we work with a smaller number of bootcamp grads to get jobs and hence we help people overcome the challenges Gergely describes.
I don’t want to steal his thunder so read the post but some additional points I would like to call out… these might not make sense without reading.
1. I disa…
Most big companies do attempt to yes. They don't care if you have a degree usually, but they care if you lie on the background check. If your resume is somewhat ambiguous but not lying, and you explicitly don't lie on the background check preparation forms themselves, then you'll probably be ok. Background checks aren't judging you, but rather checking that the information you provide the background check company is accurate.
The midlevel FAANG bar is about scope of responsibility and ownership in your current role more than YOE or raw skills.
I worked with a lot of people at FB go from 3 (junior) -> 4 (mid level) and interviewed hundreds of people as well so have a lot of advice there. I'm also familiar with Google and Amazon's leveling process.
Amazon has the least consistent process and you could possibly get a mid level (L5 SDEII) job there with very strong raw skills and some good experience.
Facebook and Google have a high bar for scope of responsibility in past experience and will gauge that through:
1. System Design: can you apply all you've seen with big systems in your past jobs and describe a reasonable architecture for something like Google Photos.
2. Technical Behavioral/Hiring Manager: your experience will be pattern matches to the expectations of a mid level at the company, so owning featur…
It s a good option! and this might help https://apprenticeships.me/ (disclosure: not affiliated in any way)
Keep in mind that many of these are extremely competitive because of oversaturation of the market but the top tier ones are great for a first post bootcamp job.
I would try not to compare yourself to others. Everyone has different goals and paths and you should work on that with your manager directly. Ask your manager for candid feedback about your pace and the quality of your work. Ask them how you’re doing to the expectations for the rule and how you can exceed those expectations.
I’ve seen very different motivations early career and comparing yourself to others will just stress you out and be not productive
I would work with my managers to find a project to work on and then had a lot of freedom to just have "impact", which would come in many ways. There were a lot of meetings to discuss team priorities, unblock other people, etc... but we didn't spend a lot of time talking, we spent most of the time doing.
I did an internship at IBM in school and that's why I wanted to go to grad school, I wrote very little code and there was a lot of talking. At Facebook it was way more doing than talking. However with all the recent negative press and issues with Facebook, I think they are spending more time thinking about things before doing haha.
I've been around for "10 years in the game" and spent 8 years at FB from 2009 to 2017.
I had originally planned on doing my PhD right after undergrad and started off as an intern in 2009. The company was private and the salaries were relatively low - being the tail end of the recession, so I did not work there for the money. Not that many people even though Facebook had engineers at the time (they had over 200) so it wasn't the prestige either.
I worked there because I just got enthralled in the work. I was working on internal tools (think code review, discussions, task management) 30+ tools FB had built from scratch on the Facebook code stack but for employees only. I thought bringing real identity from Facebook into your work life was a really good idea (spoiler alert: it wasn't and the world has hard pivoted away from that). I really had unlimited room to take on whatever I wanted…
I mean I spent two hours a few months ago making a spreadsheet of 200 alumni after a bunch of people applied to Formation with the same resumes and the fake work experience. I didn't realize it wasnt work experience until talking to people and asking questions with weird answers, e.g. what were your goals, how were your hired, what non engineers did you work with, who set the team direction, how do you make money, etc... Then I learned about OSLabs, discovered it wasn't even a real organization, and did the deep dive above. I captured the work experience from LinkedIn profiles and the GitHub commit history of the people and discovered the average person claimed 12 months of work experience and had 3 weeks of commits on the corresponding proejct.
Since then have been keeping my ears open, watched a bunch of YouTube videos and tech talks for now, want to know this all works but try to re…
So I think this is a bit unfair and please don't post everything about individual people. Sure LinkedIn is public, but the students themselves are following guidance and shouldn't be called out in my opinion and nothing good will come of that.
Don't get me wrong, I'm particularly upset that a leader told Codesmith alumni that Formation is a scam 1-1 and that people claiming an affiliation with Codesmith have personally insulted me and Formation on Reddit repeatedly claiming that I'm conspiring to steal Codesmith students. I hope these people aren't actually affiliated with Codesmith and are just trolls (you never know on Reddit) because that kind of behavior isn't the amazing community Codesmith, and all of the hard working students and employees, stand for from what I've seen.
Why I think you are being unfair:
1. All of the alumni I have worked with are very hard working, pleasant, p…
READ THE FINE PRINT. You usually to have to pay back some or most of the ISA, which to me is fair if the program is putting in the time, with good intentions, to teach you, then you should pay something. But that "something" can be fair, or it can be very unfair, e.g. paying back the entire tuition after like a month or so.
I can get the ball rolling with some hard ones :D
1. I've heard a lot of people say that App Academy has tests every week and if you fail a certain number (3?) you can be kicked out.
Can you explain this process a bit more and how stressful it really was?
2. How experienced were your instructors and what backgrounds did they have?
3. App Academy's outcomes are fairly out of date. Qualitatively how did you feel the actual outcomes were for your cohort compared to what you expected?
1. Read my entire comment history. It's long. If you don't have time then don't criticize me after only reading Codesmith-related comments
2. I have a personal goal of making LinkedIn connection with 10 to 20 people a day who are bootcamp grads (FROM ALL BOOTCAMPS) with some post bootcamp work experience. If current Codesmith students get caught in that it's almost certainly the fake work experience that I'm missing and thinking is post bootcamp work-experience. I have not once pitched Formation to any of those connections unless they've talked to me to ask me about it, nor do I include a message in my LinkedIn connection outreaches even mentioning Formation. There is world outside of Codesmith, take your head out of the sand.
3. Disclose yourself and prove that I pitched Formation to you or leave me alone.
That looks like it's encoding in a different base. When you encode things into different bases you add equals on the end when the bits don't divide equally onto the new base. It's not base 64 though, which is the most common. I would try decoding from other bases.
I might be completely wrong though and this is something else entirely.