CIRR board member shakeup, four people out, Codesmith in, anyone know anything?
Hi all, I keep tabs on CIRR as it's a very interesting organization trying to standardize bootcamp outcomes. It's a 501c6 business league that was founded by Ascent Funding (who provided student loans for bootcamps) and it is made up of bootcamp representatives who have been trying to standardize outcomes in the industry.
It has it's pros and cons, which I've talked about extensively and aren't part of this post, but someone pointed out to me that in the past month or so the following board members **left CIRR**:
* Erin Frazier, Senior Director of Operations & Marketing, The Software Guild
* Joseph Kozusko, Chief Growth Officer, Ascent Funding
* Lesia Harhaj, Director of Career Success, Fullstack Academy
* Sharon Wienbar, Independent Director, former coding bootcamp CEO
And the following board members **were** **added**:
* Jamaica Bryant, Director of Content & Community, Codesmith
On Reddit, and off Reddit, people related to Codesmith have criticized me personally for my opinion that CIRR data has pros and cons and shouldn't be looked at as the only source of truth and I think Codesmith joining the board without any announcement while people related have been defaming me for criticizing CIRR is something I want to look into more.
Does anyone have any more information about why Codesmith joined the board and why those four other people left?
CIRR is not very transparent about their board, their governance structure, and operating guidelines, so I don't see any explanation but maybe you all know stuff!
Thanks!
u/zerabellaa wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
FYI, CIRR is a \*\*business league NONPROFIT\*\*. You present it as if CIRR is a company out to make money lol
CIRR was created so that the "the outcomes of every enrolled student must be reported in a single, simple, clear report" using common standards. Hack Reactor, Launch Sc
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
I'm here with my real name, my one account, giving people advice day in and day out and I'm sure some of those people will back me up. I'm here consistently being helpful and reasonable in all my discussions about all kinds of topics and not once have a not given genuinely helpful advice to someone.
**On the other hand, you work at Codesmith on the side (or worked recently), do not disclose it, and keep defaming me and my company when I talk about Codesmith in any way that is perceived negatively. EDIT: the person denies they worked/work there and claims this is false.**
Responses to statements for other people reading this:
1. Formation doesn't cost at least $20,000+. I don't know where you are getting that number or if you know how ISA caps work. We have several paths and several payment options. Only one pathway, if paid with an ISA, can exceed $20K and it certainly is not the minimum, most people pay less than that as our average base salary is $135K (ISAs are based on base salary only).
2. Read about our story and why we have investors. Sophie represents our story and she is the founder, not me, so listen to her about where she came from. It's incredibly hard to build a company as female founder and you should really hear her story before assuming her intentions and goals. We've hired incredible principal, staff, senior engineers from top companies who have interviewed thousands of people, trained interviews, recruited at top companies for years. Who pays for these people's cumulatively millions of dollars of salaries when we are starting out? We take investment to so we can have the best people supporting our Fellows and the best engineers building out the unique technology that powers Formation. It's VERY HARD to select and schedule hundreds of 3-5 person tiny sessions with staff engineer mentors and make everyones schedules work based on their unique availability - and do this every week. Who is going to build that engine? The best engineers. How do we get the best engineers? By paying them. How do we pay them? We need to raise funds. If we are going to raise funds, we are going to raise them from the best investors we can. A16z is one of the top investors in the world for helping to build companies.
u/AdTypical3295 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I have seen the spreadsheets and the numbers are real - grads are making really great money - but I wonder if it will continue with the economy the way it is. Michael why do you care about CIRR - just curious
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Hi, yeah to be very clear, I'm not doubting the CIRR results or the integrity of the CIRR process, nor am I criticizing Codesmith, I'm just think it's something notable to be aware of: that CIRR has pros and cons like anything else.
CIRR is strictly based on base salary only and Codesmith alumni with good jobs have stock and bonuses that are completely excluded so their real numbers are better than CIRR reports.
If I was Codesmith, I would try to get a more wholistic view of TC into CIRR. Which yes might benefit them, but also might make CIRR more accurate. Lots of ways of looking at things!
To answer the question though, I'm interested in it because a lot of people rely on CIRR as the source of truth as there's nothing else to go off of, and I want to help people make the right choice for the right reasons and ultimately help people find their right starting point in their careers.
A lot of the people I talk I end up telling them to go to Codesmith and we talk about the reasons why it's better for them over other places and the people feel much more confident in their decision, whereas having CIRR shoved in their face makes them feel a bit sketchy about it (or a cult-like feeling of trusting the system, or trust the results, without explaining how it actually works).
u/AdTypical3295 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
This is fantastic! I wish the other people on here would have a proper debate about the pros and cons like that post shares. Would love to have a valuable discussion with people about some of those pros and cons.
For example, I still want to know why the other people left, and why Codesmith nominated someone in May instead of in the past, and what they plan on doing with that seat. All reasonable things to talk about without being yelled at.
u/IdiotSansVillage wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Codesmith is competitive to get into and costs a lot. As someone who's actively shopping around, there's plenty of room for competition from worse bootcamps that cost less, bring something special to the table, or have a more convenient in-person location. As long as they have de
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I think that's a good question to ask a bootcamp that isn't. "Why aren't you in CIRR" and if they don't explain something that makes sense or checks out, that would be a flag to me.
One of the big problems with CIRR results are that they don't break down people by prior experience. I think this is really important for people to identify what "someone like them" might do in the program. Some bootcamps target specific backgrounds in specific geographic locations and might have low outcomes compare number to number, but strong outcomes for the bar they are starting with.
A lot of bootcamps went remote during COVID and took in people from all over the country. Salaries in tech are almost always location-based so location is now an important factor. For example, Rithm used to be in person and is now online. They are shifting from people in downtown SF to people all over the country. It's hard to understand this impact in current CIRR reports.
u/NubLicker wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
TC could be hard to normalize for CIRR. A lot of codesmith grads go to startups, where equity can be hard to accurately quantify in terms of dollar amounts. I don't think they need to market higher numbers though. A lot of people are already skeptical of the deflated numbers publ
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Yeah tell me about it. At Formation we were trying to do this and decided to excluded private stock and options that had no primary or secondary market value in our numbers - which obviously lowers them, but in Codesmith's "Where are they now" report (which is not CIRR based) says they include all that in their numbers ("signing/annual bonus, stock options, equity, and relocation expenses") so presumably they have a way.
But I totally agree it's impossible for early stage private equity and options. The outcome is a range of probabilities and maybe they have some consistent way of calculating a mean.
Disclaimer, the following might appear critical of Codesmith, but I want to focus on the HOW IT HAPPENS instead of the WHAT HAPPENS. I also need to reiterate that it's a great program with great outcomes and a heck of a lot of fantastic alumni who are are hard working, professional and great.
I think the reason salaries are higher are 1. higher bar of entry, someone said it well that you can probably get a $60K job BEFORE Codesmith if you meet the entrance bar. 2. The OSP projects branded as work experience are not a secret and bundled with the negotiation advice of "Just ask for $150K and a $30K signing bonus and let them counter if they don't think you're work it", many people have expressed that this is a bit sketchy and you can go either way on it on your opinion on the matter. I don't judge people where they land on this, but you have to acknowledge the controversial aspect.
I don't mean to piss people off but the lectures and curriculum are nothing significantly different than other programs to justify the results. The teachers are all alumni - some who stay on full time, and aren't magical teachers with magical powers to teach or else maybe they should make a bootcamp that teaches teachers how to teach. Like Codesmith is a well run ship and the might have the BEST curriculum and the BEST teaching out of any bootcamp, but that's not the secret sauce that creates outcomes that are 20%+ higher than everyone else.... it's the two points above in my opinion and what they uniquely do better than anyone else is in learning how to get people jobs - and that's what a lot of people want in a bootcamp!!
u/NubLicker wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Codesmith collects all of those numbers in the employment survey that they use for outcome tracking. CIRR doesn't appear to use most of those numbers within their reporting methodology though. It makes sense to include the numbers in the "Where are they now" report to highlight t
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Thanks for sharing!
u/International-Bed413 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Lol this is the codesmith scam
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Codesmith isn't a scam, let's try to keep this thread productive.
u/Certain_Debate_4232 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I'm a recent Codesmith graduate. If anyone would like to hear about what it's really like and whether the reported outcomes numbers are legit, hit me up on LinkedIn. We can schedule a time for a Zoom and I'll tell you anything you want to know. My name is Reland.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Thanks for the offer, I have worked with many (10+) Codesmith alumni, instructors, interviewed some myself, reviewed many resumes, etc... and thank you for being diplomatic in your post!
I don't doubt Codesmith's numbers at all. I also think Will Sentance is a fantastic teacher and is a brilliant person.
I have two completely valid criticisms of Codesmith that are not meant to mean the whole program is a giant scam and evil, they are very valid criticisms:
1. I strongly disagree with their definition of mid-level and senior jobs. I have brought this up to many people with 5+ years of industry experience and people have had much harsher things to say that I do about this.
2. I don't like how people, like yourself on your LinkedIn, list the OSP work as software engineering work at a company. Yours listed 4 months of experience but you had 14 commits over 21 days. I spent 2 mins looking this up (this post is 9 mins after your comment was made)
I'm sorry I can't get my tone across right on Reddit, I'm not trying judge anyone and all I care about is people developing their skills, improving their careers, and ultimately having a great positive impact on the world. Just because I don't love these aspects of Codesmith, it doesn't mean the dozens of staff are not great people, the hundreds of alumni aren't great people. I love almost all the Codesmith people I've worked with!
u/zerabellaa wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
That's misguided. The oversight and auditing process is conducted and has always been conducted by a \*peer reviewed national CPA firm\*
Also, Codesmith isn't the only member of CIRR? Tech Elevator is a highly lauded bootcamp as well and a member.
\-----
Look at [switchup.or
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
Unbiased?
"We make money through inquiry generation. This means that bootcamps pay us to appear in various advertising placements across our site (marked with the word "Advertisement or "Ad") and if a user clicks on an advertising school, they will have the option to submit a form requesting that a representative of the school contact them with more information. Submitting this form creates an "inquiry", which the school pays us for, since inquiries can turn into future enrollments at these bootcamps." [https://www.switchup.org/advertising](https://www.switchup.org/advertising)
In Summary: "We get paid for lead generation by bootcamps who advertise with us".
They could make money with Google/Facebook ads but choose instead to make money from the bootcamps they feature on their site.
They might be trying to do things right, but not unbiased. Their business model is entirely based on bootcamps being or appearing successful to justify the existing of their site.
Codesmith I don't think advertises with them btw, this is a statement about SwitchUp and not Codesmith.
u/michaelnovati wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Unbiased?
"We make money through inquiry generation. This means that bootcamps pay us to appear in various advertising placements across our site (marked with the word "Advertisement or "Ad") and if a user clicks on an advertising school, they will have the option to submit a fo
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
To add to this. At Switchup.org, the ["Write a Review"](https://www.switchup.org/write-review) page says I can win one of six Amazon Gift Cards for submitting a review, but it's said the exact thing since JANUARY 2020: [https://web.archive.org/web/20200109162505/https://www.switchup.org/write-review](https://web.archive.org/web/20200109162505/https://www.switchup.org/write-review) and every snapshot since then still has 6 gift cards available.
Apparently no one has won them, or they perpetually refresh the gift card pool and you have a random chance of winning, and then they just refresh the pool again.
Second, the ["Complete our additional 10 minute outcomes survey to be entered to win a $500 Amazon Gift Card!"](https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/YMTFNWK)
It's from 2020. So are they still collecting data the rigorous survey data for 2020? And who won this gift card?
Finally, the copyright on the site is still from 2021, which means they don't seem to be frequently updating much here.
But the reviews keep flooding in to all the top ranked bootcamps there... 🤷♂️
u/AdTypical3295 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Yeah I did not know the answers to all of these and I am impressed!
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
cc u/InTheDarkDancing, I commented on this today elsewhere and adding here for consistency.
I also appreciate the blog post explaining how Codesmith supports CIRR. I don't have a problem with Codesmith's position on CIRR, but what I have a problem with is people blindly supporting Codesmith as the "best bootcamp" because of their CIRR outcomes and regurgitating their marketing as unwavering fact. These are smart people, who want six figures jobs levering their problem solving and critical thinking abilities and regurgitating marketing without thinking critically about it is not demonstrating that ability.
Codesmith directly comments about how important equity and bonuses are in compensation. Yet they continue to market their CIRR results (which explicitly only include base salary and exclude stock and bonuses) solely as a marketing strategy to make a claim they are better than other bootcamps... and it's effective at influencing people to join.
If Codesmith wanted to accurately communicate their outcomes, they would make a new, audited, standard that addresses equity and bonuses, and the background of people before starting. Instead they are leveraging CIRR because their CIRR outcomes are so strong they make all the other bootcamps look terrible.
If I was Codesmith, I might also do this strategy, but Codesmith students, alumni, prospective students, place use critical thinking and talk about why Codesmith is good day to day, rather than touting only their CIRR results. Talk about instruction quality, project quality, community, etc...!
u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
To play a bit of devil's advocate, if I'm president of Codesmith, my thinking would be that Codesmith has already gone far and above what the vast majority of bootcamps are willing to publish. Sure, Codesmith could publish more verbose data, but if the competition isn't even clos
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Yeah to be clear, this isn’t really talking about Codesmith so much as people who are fighting tooth and nail with me that Codesmith is the the “best bootcamp” because of CIRR and any data that’s not from CIRR is not to be trusted.
I think i just fall victim to engaging with trolls because most people are a lot more reasonable…
u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
To play a bit of devil's advocate, if I'm president of Codesmith, my thinking would be that Codesmith has already gone far and above what the vast majority of bootcamps are willing to publish. Sure, Codesmith could publish more verbose data, but if the competition isn't even clos
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
I saw you added the median thing or maybe I missed but this is my views on that. If I’m Codesmith I would very justifiably be marketing like you are saying, but to have students personally insult me about trying to steal Codesmith students
and tell me the “average” Codesmith student makes 120K and it is the best with nothing close is not looking at the data critically. Averages, medians are different things. Data excludes stock and bonuses, etc… It is not a factual statement to say that. Dancing, you are super reasonable on here so this message is meant for the others haha.
https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/x44mov/how_legit_are_codesmiths_stat/imtfku9