u/michaelnovati replied ·
Having worked with a bunch of people from many bootcamps, everyone puts it on their resume in some capacity except Codesmith alumni being the anomaly where almost no one puts it on their resume.
Do you put boot camps on your resume or linkedin profiles?
19 of Michael's comments in this thread · View thread on Reddit ↗
u/Dizzy-Ad-8717 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Why is that? In regards to codesmith
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Their strategy is to hide the bootcamp, make the projects you do their appear ambiguously like real work experience, and then you can hopefully pass recruiters screens as an experienced engineer if they don't look too much into the details.
u/Dizzy-Ad-8717 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Interesting. Honestly for some reason I would want to put it on resume cause I feel like graduating codesmith would be a huge accomplishment for me.
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
It's a controversial point but they do officially suggest to exclude it. The reasons they tell you are that: 'you did Codesmith and it's an elite school so you don't want to disadvantage yourself by coming across like a bootcamp grad. you have done projects that are at a mid or senior level and you want to be recognized for your accomplishments so you should emphasize those'
I don't agree with this reasoning but that's what they tell people.
EDIT: Want to clarify a few things because saying "officially" might be misleading
1. The official documentation doesn't tell you to exclude it but tells you to include it as experience and doesn't tell you to include the word Codesmith in describing that.
2. People are told the above not in writing but have reported being told it verbally during a standard resume lecture
u/SlowestTriathlete wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
This is categorically not true! Please stop with your continued lies. It's up to the individuals to decide what to do - Codesmith is agnostic on whether or not you add it.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
It's fact based, I guess it's not "everyone", it's "vast majority". Out of over 200 profiles and resumes I've seen, the vast vast majority (who were not employed by Codesmith) do not include the word Codesmith on them.
u/SlowestTriathlete wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
That's the decision of those individuals (maybe thanks to people like you who continue to paint Codesmith as shady) not Codesmith.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I don't think I portray Codesmith as a whole as shady. All of the people I know personally who work there or went there are fantastic people. They also say how hardworking and awesome the staff is on the ground running the day to day.
I'm pretty sure since I've been around here for like 8+ months, Codesmith has longer lines than ever, and several people credit me with the reason they chose it, so sorry if this was offensive, but overall I want to have balanced pros-and-cons.
u/BaconBathBomb wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
What do they put instead to show their first experience w code?
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
It's often listed as "experience" and portrayed somewhat like a job.
This is a sample Codesmith project that looks like a real company that produces open source software and you can see how the students list their experience if you look at the "employees" profiles. It says nothing about Codemsith and instead redirect to a non existent entity called Open Source Labs (this isnt registered in any state I could find and is just run by Codesmith)
https://www.linkedin.com/company/vaasdev/
EDIT: Some people didn't like me sharing one of the OSP company pages in particular. I randomly chose it from the recent announcements and you can choose any of them! As open source projects they are all public and easy to find and easy to document the commit histories of what people are actually doing.
u/vividvoltage wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
That is a functionality of LinkedIn, if you create a page in support of your project and want to be connected to it you are listed as an employee on the project page, you do not have a choice. There is a choice in how the project shows Up in your own personal profile though.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I agree that some things are a result of limitations of LinkedIn. This is not one of them. People might not be doing this with bad intentions, but someone, somewhere, is aware of this as a strategy to stand out from other bootcamp grads.
I agree that how people portray their personal profiles is up to them But I pulled over 200 Codesmith alumni profiles and over 2/3rds of them have almost the exact same descriptions and representation of that experience as ambiguous work experience.
I really need to emphasize that I'm not saying anything personal about people that do this. Again, I support people doing this case by case, but the fact that the vast majority of students do it is a fact to note as no other bootcamp has this characteristic.
u/vividvoltage wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Your 200 person poll is approximately 7 cohorts worth of people and there’s approximately 24 cohorts in a year across the various full time immersive programs. And doing some quick math they’ve probably had almost 100 cohorts in total. So your “poll” is less than 1 % of graduates
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I can give you the methodology and you can repeat it? I'm all for the scientific method but so much for flat earth theories.
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
On a weekly basis, in my personal experience only, people are mistaking these resumes for experienced engineers. The blame might be entirely on the people making these mistakes, but I'm stating that I'm seeing it happening almost all the time.
I would like to emphasize what I repeatedly said in the past, MOST people working on real, legit Open Source projects ARE PAID for it. So Open Source !== not a real job and instantly make something that looks like a company not a company. Anyone reading, happy to talk more what Open Source really means because there is a lack of understanding in this sub about it.
In auditing 200 GitHub commit histories, over 75% of people had 2-3 weeks of commits on their projects, far less than even 1 month, never-mind multiple months. I have a nicely organized Google sheet from around May when I did the analysis. This is not two sides, it's a continuous spectrum and I land somewhere in the middle. But the data is really clear so some wires are getting crossed somewhere.
Finally, the vast majority of Fellows at Formation are already employed and training part time (once again they are not students and we are not a school) so they are already employed in another job and doing Formation to get a better job aligned with their goals... and yes I spend a lot of time every day helping them find jobs aligned with their goals... in the past week someone said "I don't know when Michael sleeps" and that pretty much describes how I make all this happen. We also raised venture capital so we have been fortunate to hire staff and principal FAANG engineers and recruiters to help support Fellows. I time-box reddit responses and come back to edit them when I run out of time and have more to say.
u/BaconBathBomb wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Honestly, if a cohort makes a page and goes the extra step to make an LLC ** Only for the purpose to legitimize a work experience***, what gripe could one have outside of the cohort / employer conversation ?
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I'm honestly middle of the road! If someone turns a project into an LLC, files secretary of state forms, taxes, and does all of the overhead of a business, and runs a business, and say they worked they, that's work experience.
I said this above, but I support people with this strategy in some cases and not in other cases, and I personally support the individuals I'm dedicated my time to supporting. I'm saying there are a lot of people in the industry who have a 'table-flip' reaction to this kind of behavior though.
u/BaconBathBomb wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
So what. You think employers on linked in are looking for anything but the best $ value for employees? What’s your gripe? That job posts asking for 10 yrs of experience for an entry level job review a candidate might skip the line?
u/michaelnovati replied ·
That job post asking for 10 years of experience for an entry level job is because of this behavior causing this.... it's the price to pay for bootcamp exaggerations.
I worked at Facebook for 8 years, reviewed thousands of resumes, hundreds of interviews..My team now has 3 other engineers with hundreds of interviews each. All of us have trained interviewers as well. We have 4 ex-FAANG recruiters with 5+ years each, two with 10+ years of FAANG experience
These are just my views but I feel confident in my evidence to back it up and you can choose not to believe me if you want, I might be wrong. If you have a similar backing to counter me, present the arguments, and let people reading decide.
u/BaconBathBomb wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
LLC is $150. no taxes involved till you file the next year / if you earn revenue & profit. You Being an L7 in a boot camp sub Reddit, you must have some knowledge. But, what ever resume/history/clout/status you have AND respecting a SOS filing (LLC registration) as a credentia
u/michaelnovati replied ·
All LLCs in California have to pay a minimum $800 tax every year regardless of revenue. This obviously depends on the state of residence of the managing members and the state of registration of the LLC.
LLC's don't have shares and ownership can't be bought and sold like a share or stock. This is like a fundamental fact about the nature of LLCs.
Sarcasm aside, making an LLC obviously doesn't change the nature of the project. But why don't more people do it? It might show some initiative at least if you go through the trouble of registering a genuine, non-fraudulant company even if it's a terrible group project. The fact that this sounds kind of funny is an indication that these group projects are no where near real companies but their members are getting a lot of the benefit of appearing like a company and kind of proving my point.
u/BaconBathBomb wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I’m challenging you because I don’t understand your gripe. Is it coming from a perspective of talent acquisition? Then sure, you can be mad. You’re exposing the tools you use to filter talent btw. I think that’s why you’re frustrated. If I’m wrong, as a from scratch coder this y
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah so many things are broken about the application process! I have so much more interesting things to say about that!
I work with/have worked with a lot of bootcamp grads (low hundreds) and see a lot of perspectives from a lot of people from a lot of programs. I also have a huge FAANG network that spends 24/7 in this world. I'm just putting out what I see because not that many people have this perspective.
u/BaconBathBomb wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
That $800 CA every year shit is facts. But it’s not in 49 other states….. I thought NY was expensive
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah CA is crazy! $800 just for running a pass-through LLC and you have to file a tax form that can only be filed on paper. If you live in SF you have register with the city for a permit and that costs money. Once you register all these agencies are sending you letters asking you to register for other things, like unemployment insurance department, etc...
Then you have to file a statement of information every two years for an LLC (or every year for a corporation).
If you genuinely commit to all this for a group project, that's a little leg for real, I'm not being sarcastic HAHA
u/BaconBathBomb wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
U fkd up. It’s called a virtual office. A physical address that’s not a PO Box in any other state you want to register your LLC in. Why pay CA taxes if you don’t have to? $800 in 40 other states will pay for LLC filing, virtual office & tax prep for like 3 yrs.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Well Formation is a Delaware Corporation, but you have to register in any state you are physically located in (and in some cases if you just have customers or employees in!). So just physically living in California means we have to have register here and pay taxes. People do try to avoid these things with "stretching" the laws, but we are trying to run things by the books.
My wife had a CA LLC in the past which is why I know a lot about that.
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
1. People practice how to talk about OSP in depth without lying and without identifying it as a it is. This public video describes what I've heard from alumni and staff members, and what I've seen in alumni that I've interviewed myself, and specifically who talk to Erik Kirsten (a senior board advisor) as well: **"there's this one guy in particular his name is eric kirsten uh and this guy has a silver tongue and he will teach you how to say anything like you know you tell him hey um this is my background how do i present it to an employer to where it doesn't look like i just decided to switch careers because you want to avoid that stigma and he will give you a great way to say it you know"** 33:03 from [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkWYanfkfCY&t=1983s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkWYanfkfCY&t=1983s)
2. I totally agree there should be additional checks and bounds to catch people making it through the recruiter screen. That catches some people, others change their pitches in the next rounds. Others keep it going and don't get caught. It's really case by case, but agree. A lot to unpack here. But Codesmith has a process to perform background checks for OSP projects where people provide information on what they told the recruiters and a specific person at Codesmith does the calls to confirm that information. I can't talk too much about this to protect the sources, so I can't really use anything more detailed than this as part the evidence as a result.
3. Yes, some people are getting jobs by wrongfully assumed OSPs. I believe (no evidence) that some people are 100% forward about their experience, some people are the opposite and lie, and average person is just in the middle, not lying and not fully revealing everything about the OSP.
4. I was referring to the fact that majority of Fellows at Formation have full time jobs already and they are training part time with Formation on their own schedules to reach their new career goals. Where are the links to all these people on Reddit "more and more"?
At a bigger picture. Do you believe that I've worked with a dozen or two alumni? And do you believe I've interviewed hundreds of people and reviewed thousands of resumes over the past 13 years? Do you believe that I participated in dozens of hiring committee meetings? If you do, everything I'm saying is just pulling from these sources.
How many Codesmith alumni have you helped get jobs and go through the emotional ups and downs of interviews? And how many people have you interviewed and how many hiring committees have you been on and how many resumes have you seen?
Your information is coming out of your opinions and not from any basis. You are cherry picking anonymous people on Reddit who you agree with that validate your views.
u/aubertlone wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
It is insanely gross to link Vaas as an example. You wanna talk about codeSmith all day? Have at it, man. But don't be linking people in particular that are just trying to get a job. No one I know is lying or trying to misrepresent themselves in the job search. Just feels like a
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
So I’m just basing this of the hundreds of LinkedIns I documented and the dozens of people I’ve worked with directly or indirectly from Codesmith. Things change, but you need to survey your whole cohort to kind of counter this rather than one case. You can always do whatever you want on your resume. It’s pretty frustrating to have super diligent data and people tell me I’m wrong because of one off cases. I’m not sharing the spreadsheet because it’s a privacy violation in my opinion but I’m happy to share the methodology and you can repeat it on your own.
Similarly. At Formation, the majority of people we work with are experienced industry engineers and we worked with them 10 to 20 hours a week as they have full time jobs elsewhere. Yet just because we have a small number of people with no experience at all - either no bootcamp or straight from bootcamp - and combine with the fact that I'm absurdly active on this bootcamp subreddit, some people use those facts to make false conclusions that Formation is a bootcamp and I'm secretly here to get people to choose Formation over a bootcamp. One off cases can be 100% real but that doesn't mean they reveal a pattern unless you zoom out more. In fact Formation does better if more people go to bootcamps and do well because we're the perfect place to go a year or more down the road in your career!
How did you list your OSP and other projects? If you put them under education with Codesmith, I’m assuming you have past experience to put under experience and other projects to put under projects. If your past experience is relevant, then you fall into the smaller bucket where people do sometimes put it or not and it doesn’t really matter because of that experience….. if you had a blank experience section and only have projects and education sections then I ask you to come back in 1-2 months of job hunting and let me know how you are doing and if you made changes to the resume because I suspect you won’t get a lot of calls.
EDIT: I randomly chose a project from the recent announcements choose any of them!
u/aubertlone wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
fwiw, i've read through a couple of your comments on this thread, and your main conclusion seems to be: some people are lying & misrepresenting their OSP's during interviews how in the world can you possibly know what people are saying in interviews? it just feels a lot like you
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Worked at Facebook for 8 years a principal engineer, did hundreds of interviews and looked at thousands of resumes. My team has 3 engineers with similar backgrounds. My team has 4 ex-FAANG 5+ year recruiters who have seen tens of thousands of resumes and done high thousands of interviews.
We have seen a heck of a lot. I think it’s worth hearing all sides as none of us have attended Codesmith. But what we see on a weekly basis on the outside is very clear and i’m presenting that view.
It’s very possible that we see more of the exaggerated resumes because they make it through the other filters, so I will admit that bias.
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited
Your original comment is offensive and vulgar and I hope Reddit bans you.
"It’s 2022 and we have a fat bald white man gaslighting women that their experience at the actual bootcamp is not true lol.
Michael novati has a bunch of boys upvoting and downvoting these replies.
How is this not a mod issue"
Read my comment history. My entire life is about increasing diversity in tech. Being so anonymous, I have no idea who or what anybody on Reddit identifies as and never have I made a personal comment about anybody.
I have one account for commenting and voting. I have no idea who is upvoting or downvoting these comments and I don't care. I'm happy to talk to anybody here no matter how you feel because I was bullied my entire life and now that I've led an extremely successful career and built more confidence I pity people who bully others and want to help them.