Tripleten posting my experience while it happens · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Please update how many people drop out every week! That's one of the things TripleTen isn't clear about.
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Where to find CIRR Data · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Codesmith's CEO explicitly said publicly several times that Codesmith's application to offer rate is 1 offer for every 50 Codesmith style applications. And he said the main factor in people not getting jobs is that it's hard to do these kind of applications (that involve personal messaging and a ton of reach out). He presents this as a funnel from application to recruiter screen to technical interview to offer and if you do the math it implies 1 offer for every 50 applications.
Do you agree or disagree with that?
I know Codesmith is soliciting feedback from students over the past few days because of a kerfuffle of some kind that people have told me about but I don't know all the details of. So if you disagree it would be good to tell him that.
Where to find CIRR Data · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I think the 12 month placement might be higher than 60% but we'll see. We know placements have been a lot slower, but it's hard to tell whose getting the jobs.
If I had more time or cared about this more I repeat my 52 person audit and cross reference their cohorts from some other data. Part of the reason the average time on OSPs was 12 months was becasue people tended to be job hunting longer and just had like June 2022 - present, listed for their OSP. But when you do all the accounting I don't have a strong sense of where this lands but I highly suspect 6 month placements rates of 50 to 60% are reasonable.
My nightmare that everyone should prepare for is if CIRR comes out and Codesmith has a 12 month placement of 78% or something, and touts that as not much different than the H1 2022 SIX MONTH rate of 83% (or whatever it is close to that) then I think that would be bad.
Where to find CIRR Data · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
Yeah I totally get where you are coming from and we can and want to share more.
The hesitation is that people truly do have unique journeys at Formation. They do entirely different things at different paces and it's something noted by many people who go through, and it also makes it hard to review as no one else will have the experience you did again. You can go on leave and there is no expected timing. Some people have really demanding jobs already and need to ramp up and down completely unexpectedly... this is surprisingly common and I don't think I've ever seen a Fellow who hasn't adjusted their involvement because of unexpected things.
So we have to be super careful that people don't get misled by making assumptions about their experience or their self assessment of their skills or how fast they think they can do stuff, and we really want to give more personalized data and estimate…
Where to find CIRR Data · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
No one has a right to any data, but they have a right to say CIRR's data is outdated, sorry if that wasn't clear.
I don't think I'm pedantic about why we don't report CIRR results or other reporting standards, I'll try to explain again very bluntly and directly.
Formation is a mentorship and benchmarking platform and not a program or school so we don't publish CIRR-like outcomes data. We really want to publish more data but when we sit down and look at it, it's just almost impossible.
We had two $500K+ seniors Meta offers in the past three weeks - for people with a many years of experience and we recently had someone with a few months of experience get a role paying much less at a startup that they are thrilled with.
It's super meaningless to publish CIRR-like data that doesn't take background into consideration.
Sounds easy, publish data by experience level right? Now because we wo…
Where to find CIRR Data · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I don't think Tech Elevator is a particpate anymore. They merged operations with Galvanize (which has their own reporting system) and have let go of a number of long time staff. It's still running great and a solid option, especially if you are in their in-person cities, but I doubt they will participate in CIRR anymore.
CodeUp shutdown so they are probably no longer a participant either.
So from the CIRR website that leaves:
Turing - an accredited school
Code Platoon - a school focusing on veterans
Hacktiv8 - a bootcamp in Indonesia
Codesmith - a full stack immersive bootcamp in the USA
Launch Academy - a full stack immersive focusing on Boston
These are so different it doesn't seem useful really
I highly encourage schools to make their own standards, have them vetted and audited and then publish their own data on their own time. Using CIRR for branding doesn't seem to have the…
Where to find CIRR Data · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
The latest CIRR reports were for graduates from Jan 2022 to June 2022.
Jan is over 2 years ago, and June is 1 year 8 months, which rounds to 2 years too.
So if someone graduates now 2024, that would be like receiving data about them in 2026.
Codesmith for example said they were ready to publish their old format H2 2022 CIRR report and (before the change in specification) said to my recollection that it was coming out 'any day' - which it never did after CIRR changed the specification. So the data is there and wasn't' released and I think people have a right to claim that published CIRR data is out of date for that reason alone.
Where to find CIRR Data · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
CIRR essentially collapsed and one of the board members took over and is trying to reboot CIRR.
I have no idea why all the historical data is gone but it's expected for CIRR results from 2022 to come out in February (i.e. this month).
The new results will look at a 12 month placement window in addition to 3 and 6 months, which is the cause for the delay.
The new director of CIRR is super reasonable but I disagree with almost all of this and I get the feeling like CIRR collapsed and lose it's members and the director has great intentions of rebooting it, but it's going to take a lot of time.
That said, the new Director just started a full time job and it's questionable how much time and effort their going to spend on CIRR.
Anyways, **there is absolutely no reason why schools didn't publish 6 month 2022 CIRR data and then re-publish the 12 month data under the new standard.**
At the…
Codesmith 2023 Year In Review Blog Post Released · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited
What's odd about it?
Hi, I am co-founder of Le Wagon, ask me anything. · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Hi, I might have more questions but these are the common questions I asked bootcamp leaders that I think would be useful for people to hear. One of the challenges right now is what worked in 2021 and some of 2022 doesn't work at all anymore, so reviews from the past are less useful to people considering joining a bootcamp now.
1. How has the job market in 2023 impacted the outcomes at Le Wagon? Like in words and not numbers, to describe the types of jobs, location, placement times and just how you word characterize in a shorter qualitative statement.
2. What changes have you made in 2023 as a result of the job market?
Thanks!
Best legit coding bootcamp · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
2 month old OP post that went completely inactive.... comment from 1 day ago gets 28 upvotes almost instantly 🤔
Whether Codesmith is good or not, this is why people think Codesmith is manipulating discussion and asking people to comment about them.
People read this as an ad and it becomes super polarizing.
The changing narrative around becoming an engineer in 2024, an argument for taking a longer and slower journey to becoming a SWE instead of a 12-16 week bootcamp. · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah :(. I work with a few Canadians and I'm from Canada originally, and it's just as tough there as here, no shortcuts, but if you want to be an engineer, just keep writing code every day and eventually you'll get there... the case for a super intense short bootcamp though is harder to make.
The changing narrative around becoming an engineer in 2024, an argument for taking a longer and slower journey to becoming a SWE instead of a 12-16 week bootcamp. · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I only know a handful of graduates and I know a lot more people who are starting it or doing it.
I don't know if I would say it "adequately prepares" you for THIS job market, but I think it's a good option to consider as a step along the journey to get a reliable CS base.
Like content wise, if it's accredited then presumably it covers enough raw topics.
The challenge is for CS degree grads right now, internship experience is key to 1. converting to full time, 2. having experience on your resume.
So if you do WGU without internships, you'll still have a hard time getting a job.
BUT for the cost, and given it's backing, it's fairly affordable and reliable way to cover a lot of CS basics.
Sorry this isn't a definitive answer. I don't have a lot of answers, just my 2 cents observations and opinions.
Codesmith 2023 Year In Review Blog Post Released · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I just haven't worked with a lot of people who have done Le Wagon and don't have detailed thoughts or information to surface unfortunately :(
Just a note to be clear, I think it's fair to consider each program differently. Codesmith is Codesmith, and Le Wagon is Le Wagon. And I don't want to make any connections or accusations of either party.
Codesmith 2023 Year In Review Blog Post Released · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I can't speak for the commenter, but I can say that in this market Formation is ideal if you can get some interviews yeah, and we help you prepare for them and increase your chances of passing (the primary goal is to help you level up in general, but more practically speaking, that's how I would frame it).
We are seeing hiring slowly "resume" at the top companies, and have more recruiters to backchannel people through - a small number of people get jobs this way! But it's a nice to have and not a guarantee or something you should expect coming in. The market hasn't recovered enough for that yet.
We have some exciting programs launching soon for people in college! And we have a handful of formal pipelines established recently (apprenticeship, formal recruiter backchannels, 3rd party recruiters). But for these pipelines again still edge cases and DO NOT JOIN to be handed interviews.
We…
Codesmith 2023 Year In Review Blog Post Released · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Yeah totally agree that it's a huge amount of time! Like people might go back to their old jobs as a mechanical engineer or what have you and count as "offers". They can't call those jobs "non engineering roles" for CIRR but call them "engineering roles" on their resumes - have to go one way or the other.
I also found that a significant number of alumni who got offers frame experience as jobs on LinkedIn and I always wondered how the auditors reconciled those. Did they flag things as jobs that were just projects? etc....
Codesmith 2023 Year In Review Blog Post Released · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited
20 offers, could mean multiple offers for one person unless they stated otherwise.
Codesmith 2023 Year In Review Blog Post Released · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Sorry to hear, yeah one of the reasons I talk about Codesmith so much is that they have a very polarizing brand of people who will fight tooth and nail for Codesmith and people who do not like it at all.
My opinion is the people that don't like it shouldn't have gone in the first place and chose to go because of the super positive promoters talking superficially about how life changing it is, but without going into the nitty gritty of how it all works and realizing it probably isn't the right thing for them. The info sessions tout $120/$130.... $180K salaries, and it gives hope to people who aren't a perfect fit that maybe they'll be one of those people. Maybe you will be but maybe you'll also win the lottery and people need to understand what THEIR OUTCOME might look like, and I talk to a lot of people about this because Codesmith does not help with this.
I highly recommend Codesmith…
Codesmith 2023 Year In Review Blog Post Released · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
FWIW, I don't recommend the vast majority of people who do Codesmith do Formation and the vast majority wouldn't be accepted.
I know a couple of people (literally 2, one dropped out and the other just chose Formation but was very close to going to Codesmith) that did this and it was well over a year ago and it was the correct decision. Both got FAANG-level jobs that were the perfect jobs for those two people.
I also know someone who dropped out of Formation and did Codeamith, and they did not get a job after and went back to school.
These are all edge cases and people reading this should not generally be considering Formation over Codesmith. You should absolutely consider Formation over Codesmith if you have 1+ year of SWE work experience already.
I want to reiterate that Formation is not a bootcamp or school and we don't teach anything. The people we work with with no experience al…
Codesmith 2023 Year In Review Blog Post Released · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
The data their CEO shared once about college degrees showed only a very tiny amount, something like a few percent of people, had no college experience. And that's not of people placed, but just all residents.
That doesn't mean it's impossible because that still dozens of people and some get great jobs, but it is an uphill battle.
At the same time, getting a quick degree like WGU likely isn't the entire answer as well. The answer is that it will probably take 2 years of many things.and a lot of grinding and a lot of failures, not just one thing, that will eventually get you a job.
Codesmith 2023 Year In Review Blog Post Released · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
See #6 above, added new analysis
Codesmith 2023 Year In Review Blog Post Released · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
See #6 above, added new analysis
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I haven't used Exponent myself enough, but it's not a competitor to these services I mentioned above.
Disclosure, my co-founder does know the founder of Exponent. It's a good complement for a more expensive high touch service like the above. Perhaps competing with Udemy DS&A courses, or Structy, or other cheaper monthly tools. Their mock interviews are competitive with Interviewing.io so I would look at them for one off interviews perhaps.
My opinion is their core emphasis is more in PM than SWE but they do have modules for SWEs too.
Codesmith 2023 Year In Review Blog Post Released · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Yeah I mean it's on the lower side of others I've heard, but when you factor in non-job hunting individuals, out of country (they said they had people from 13 countries), and then exclude people who didn't graduate or ghosted, and then people who went MIA but got jobs on LinkedIn, it might end up being closer to 50 to 60% for CIRR.
Either way, this is what people ask me all the time and we need to see the data.
I really want to see 6 month data for H1 2023 and we won't be seeing any 2023 for a long time with the new CIRR rules, but they have been sitting on the informal 6 month data for H1 2023 for almost a month now.
Codesmith 2023 Year In Review Blog Post Released · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati posted ·
Codesmith 2023 Year In Review Blog Post Released
SEE ORIGINAL: [https://www.codesmith.io/blog/2023-codesmith-year-in-review](https://www.codesmith.io/blog/2023-codesmith-year-in-review)
(MAKING NOTES RIGHT NOW, WILL EDIT SOON!)
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Interesting. Yeah I work with a number of people at Formation that have 1. done Outco before, 2. mentored at Outco. (Disclosure: Outco is a direct competitor to my company)
I used to recommend people look into Interview Kickstart, Pathrise, Outco, and Coachable, (and to some extend Interviewing.io if not looking for a holistic program) as the set of competitors around DS&A and interview prep.
But I removed Outco because they removed their application online and their website is wonky and seems not maintained.... it still says Copyright 2017.
Someone who did Outco recently before Formation also affirmed that in their experience Outco seemed to be running on autopilot with recordings and peer mock interviews and they felt like it wasn't really operating anymore.
I know they are a competitor so I want to triple emphasize this is just what I've observed and heard about Outco in my perso…
Bootcamper who landed at FAANG recently - the risk is too high · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Thanks for sharing, I love Ada's model and it's too bad that hiring dried up. Hopefully things will turn around in the future.
Is it normal for coding bootcamp to request the following? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I mean I can't speak for everyone and maybe they have a good reason but I would push back on that and ask exactly why they need it and how they will securely store it.
Is it normal for coding bootcamp to request the following? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I can give my two cents opinion as an operator from that point of view:
1. Emergency contact - yes, if you disappear we want to try to find you and make sure everything is ok. People do have emergencies, and it's not often, but it's helpful to have this when it does happen and it's not super invasive.
2. SSN - I would only give this to an institution with PCI compliance. i.e. a bank or financial institution asking on behalf of the bootcamp. It's not really necessary for the program to have this directly.
3. Rights to use picture - yeah this is very normal, and the reason is to have legal permission to do so if you happen to be in a screenshot or something. I would HOPE the program would ask you first for your permission because contract aside, they want to have a mutually trusting relationship, but it's very common to see this kind of clause.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
This reads like a paid article but I didn't see it saying it was sponsored anywhere.
App Academy Withdrawal Payments · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I would tell them about your situation, highlight any areas they didn't meet.your expectations (if any) and ask if they can stretch the payments over a longer period of time, or if they can lower the amount due (which is less likely, because you signed the contract, but let's say you were absent one day, there.was a holiday, or their teacher didn't show up one days you can try to ask for some of those days to be removed )
If they absolutely won't budge, which is within their right, but also not friendly, then look at loan options, like normal off the shelf loans.
In the absolute worst case, see if you can pay with a credit card and push them off farther or partially pay down the credit card balance.
Does anybody have a boot camp syllabus? · r/bootcamps
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Some people on YouTube do detailed dives. I know some for Codesmith that show the exact weekly schedule.
Looking for a 4-week in-person bootcamp · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Codemsith is going to have AI/ML extension that is 4ish weeks. I agree with other commenters that this seems a little impossible but we'll see what the program looks like when it comes out!
Does anybody have a boot camp syllabus? · r/bootcamps
u/michaelnovati replied ·
A lot of websites offer their syllabus for free online!
Meta Onsite - BFS or DFS? · r/leetcode
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I would postpone for a few weeks or a month until you feel comfortable with LC medium problems (particulatly trees and complex arrays)
Meta Onsite - BFS or DFS? · r/leetcode
u/michaelnovati replied ·
You need to have an idea of which tools are helpful right away but it's better to spend a few minutes talking those out and getting to the optimal approach.
If someone has a seen a question it can help you get a great answer fast, but if it's too fast asking unique followups always reveal if the person memorized or genuinely understands. Sometimes I asked followups that didn't make sense on purpose to see if the person flagged that.
interview prep boot camps? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Hi, interview prep sounds exactly like what you are asking for. I'm the cofounder of Formation.dev and would recommend looking into Formation and Interview Kickstart if you are aiming to level up to a top tier company. Both are about the same price and take around the same amount of time.
BUT, both are super different day to day so feel free to ping me to ask questions.
I would recommend hoping on an IK info call they have every day to learn about IK and then applying to Formation and talking to a recruiter and then deciding if either, or neither, are a good fit.
Is a coding career worth pursuing if I’m not good at math? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Try playing the game "Baba Is You" [https://hempuli.com/baba/](https://hempuli.com/baba/) \- don't need to love it, but if you do, then you can be a good programmer because it's all about abstraction and pattern matching with zero actual math.
Is a coding career worth pursuing if I’m not good at math? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
\+1 day to day programming is most similar to algebra - abstraction and pattern matching. I think if you are going to be a really good programmer then you need this.
Meta Onsite - BFS or DFS? · r/leetcode
u/michaelnovati replied ·
correct, new grads don't do SD at Meta because they use it to determine people's level for E4/E5/E6
Meta Onsite - BFS or DFS? · r/leetcode
u/michaelnovati replied ·
This might have changed but they had question banks you could work from but ultimately you would choose your questions as an interviewer. When the recruiters, hiring managers, directors, and sometimes the CTO! looked over the "packets" they would see how experienced the interviewer was and how often they used the question they asked and take that into account.
So ultimately what Facebook strived for was FAIRNESS and CONSISTENCY. So the difficulty of the question wasn't as important as how well the interviewer was able to extract "signal" from using it. Some people had easier questions that they knew 100% strong no if the candidate didn't do well. Others had very medium questions that they expected to be solved perfectly and then had follow-ups they would use to build confidence that 1- person didn't memorize, 2- person really understood and could adapt on their feet to out of the box f…
Meta Onsite - BFS or DFS? · r/leetcode
u/michaelnovati replied ·
yeah I can give quick comments sure
Meta Onsite - BFS or DFS? · r/leetcode
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I would know DFS and BFS like the back of your hand, many tree problems start with one or the other as the base and you can then focus your time on applying them to the problem.
Also strings, arrays, and hashtables.
You'll have 3 interviews: 2x DS&A similar to the phone screen, and 1x behavioral.
DS&A:
\- 2 medium level problems
\- 45 mins to solve them
\- no small talk
\- whiteboard style/noncompilable code requirement, be able to walk through throught process without running and guessing and checking.
Behavioral:
\- looking for red flags
\- try to show more unique things you've done in school projects or outside of school and not the same old thing they hear 10 times a day
(I worked at Meta 2009 to 2017 and did 400+ interviews and a lot of on campus recruiter)
Live course suggestion for system design · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Maybe read through this https://www.amazon.com/System-Design-Interview-insiders-Second/dp/B08CMF2CQF
It's a good resource!
Live course suggestion for system design · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I just edited to clarify, but it's not a fixed course. You'll cover all the SD topics, but our process it to accelerate through stuff you benchmark well on, and spend more time on things you are weaker on.
So every week you'll get 1 to 4ish small group mentor led sessions (different mentors based on scheduling and your preferences) and the topics will be things you need to work on. Then you'll do some benchmarks and move on when you are solid enough on those topics. Ultimately culminating in doing legit 1-1 SD mocks (similar to Interviewing.io's mocks).
$2500 per month (and there are currently some packages if you want 2 or 3 months)
Live course suggestion for system design · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited
I'm the co-founder of Formation, one thing you can consider is doing 1 month at Formation (via the month to month model) and just doing System Design ($2500 per month as of 01/2024) (and whatever other stuff you can squeeze into a month).
@coffeezilla ?? Investigate bootcamp fraud · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffeezilla
@coffeezilla ?? Investigate bootcamp fraud · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I mean that would be something Coffeezilla would be good at looking into in a specific case behind the general industry wide problems
@coffeezilla ?? Investigate bootcamp fraud · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I had the same idea! He's good at digging!
One challenge is bootcamps are full of completely independent entities and Coffeezilla is good at digging into individual people/stories.
Another challenge is he's good at digging into people who are likely doing illegal things but there isn't enough evidence yet to escalate the issue.
Bootcamps aren't clearly violating laws. Fraud is a high bar and involves intentions - which is fuzzy - and hard to factually prove. In civil cases the bar is more likely than not and for criminal.violations it's beyond a reasonable doubt. It's very hard to prove that.
So l think you would need to show him a piece of very strong evidence of fraud so he could successfully dig and grow that into something stronger to make a good episode, rather than waste time digging into ambiguity.
I was thinking a documentary might be the more appropriate format.
Former software dev with a cs degree · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Would you be doing this part time? And with 16 years of dev experience you probably have a ton of ability to pick things up quickly that you might not realize.
I would recommend doing a big project in a modern stack like React and Node.js and learning little things along the way as you get blocked.
I know Amazon will pay for a program but this approach would be more effective IMO.
When the time comes to job hunt, I would then look at interview prep programs like Formation (disclosure: co-founder) and Interview Kickstart. Something that recaps CS fundamentals and gets you interview ready.