Boot campers from 2020-2023, how are work options for you now? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
How many other people in your cohort are employed as of a year later in April 2024?
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Boot campers from 2020-2023, how are work options for you now? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
What's your current background?
Boot campers from 2020-2023, how are work options for you now? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Can you elaborate on the "slightly shifty resume" means for your?
I'm also seeing this that unless you shifty-it-up to 2 YOE, you won't get any callbacks.
I'm trying to shout this loud and clear - and that Codesmith grads taking non-SWE jobs isn't because they are getting "modern engineer" roles and is because they aren't get SWE roles because they don't exist.
Bootcamps · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
You get more support and the course is mastery based instead of one way. But depends on how you learn, may be worth it or not. It's also mostly text based and very different from a video based course.
2024 Bootcamp Predictions [MIDYEAR CHECKIN AND UPDATES!] · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah this whole situation is hard because for an individual it's all about you and your path is unique. Some people can successfully transition in this market.
I would argue that a lot of people that got jobs in the better times maybe shouldn't have and they might be still struggling to find their place... the job is the beginning and not the end.
1. Bachelor's helps, professional experience in a "desk job" where you did well in that career means more.
2. Master's are slower and usually more expensive. A top tier masters can bring name recognition that significantly help. The ultimate benefit from school is doing internships, so whether you do a post bacc or a master's, getting some internships in before graduating is the key benefit. A degree without internships won't help much
I never give people an answer just options haha, so I'm not sure what's for you and I would consider a wi…
What made you quit? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
My general advice to anyone is to go all in on what you are good at and try to avoid things you aren't.
What made you quit? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I'm not good for burnout. I work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week.
I have minor OCD and I channel that towards extreme responsiveness and get joy in elegant solutions that solve problems.
But I don't think it's healthy to feed my problems through putting myself on the right kind of work.
I'm not super easy to work with and I'm someone who in the right place is a 100x engineer and in the wrong place a -10X engineer.
If you have advice, I'm down to hear it haha
What made you quit? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I've seen this kind of thing over and over and the common trends
1. The people don't know how to mentor or teach well despite how good they are
2. The best people get paid millions of dollars a year to work at Meta (literally not an exaggeration) and such and those people don't offer free mentorship on discord no matter how much they want to help people.
3. People who work at FAANG for two years think they can have more impact helping train new engineers, or make more money that way, and they leave their job to help coach people. They don't have enough experience with how the system works to help people but they try hard for a while and give up.
Sorry if these sound negative but all of them involve good intentions. It's just Dunning Kruger combined with a free market.
Bootcamps · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I think self paced part time like Launch School Core is a good idea. Part time structured like HR and Codesmith are crazy intense.
I can't imagine going to Codesmith 4 hours a day M to T and Saturdays for 9 months straight.
It kind of just stretches things out a bit but doesn't solve the fundamental problem of being ready when you are ready and the market is ready and going up and down with the life
I'm maybe biased by the mastery based approach so take it with a grain of salt but I think it's a strong argument for this approach right now.
When you have self paced arbitrary programs you can't really have outcomes reporting to compare between programs.
Bootcamps · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
It depends on 1. your goals, 2. your starting point, 3. your learning style, 4. your location
Generally speaking though things aren't going great amongst the top bootcamps so this comment might need updating and might not hold true over the long term.
SOME OPTIONS OF DIFFERENT STYLES ACROSS THE THREE AREAS YOU MENTIONED:
1. Rithm: small classes, reasonable but tough number of hours per day, high on the teaching side
2. Launch School: starts with a self paced mastery program called core and then ends with Capstone, which is a normal "bootcamp" style program focused on building open source projects. They have very strong outcomes because you do Core first and they only let in people they are confident it will work for. The projects you build are the most robust I've seen and probably wins on the portfolio side.
3. Codesmith: I completely stopped recommending two weeks ago so I wouldn'…
Boot campers from 2020-2023, how are work options for you now? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I'm defensive of the truth and facts yeah. But I totally get the dominating conversation issue. It's a downside of commenting so much and it can be intimidating to others. I try to balance my commenting and only comment if I have something I feel will add to the existing conversation. But I'm a person and have opinions and a personality too.
Sorry my comment felt snarky.
I do have anxiety problems and other issues yeah, but I don't have an agenda, I'm here because I'm a big fish in a small pond and I feel like I can give a lot of advice that's missing.
The Codesmith subreddit literally has conversations amongst 2-3 people who are all low acitvity accounts almost exclusively commenting and posting about Codesmith... that feels completely fake and disingenuous - [https://www.reddit.com/r/codesmith/](https://www.reddit.com/r/codesmith/)
Even if you don't like me, or don't agree with me…
Boot campers from 2020-2023, how are work options for you now? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Moderators list on the right hand side maybe?
My partner ran a bootcamp called Buildschool, which was a free in person iOS bootcamp from 2017 to 2019.
That turned into Formation when I work now, which isn't a bootcamp but I absolutely have bias as a result. We work with engineers who are already employed as SWEs prepare for upcoming interviews and job hunts. So I've worked with a lot of bootcamp grads later on in their careers (about 1/3 or so of people we work with).
As a result I hear a lot about a lot of the top bootcamps.
But I'm also bias because the more people that go to bootcamps the more people need Formation later on.... but ironically I get yelled at for bias AGAINST bootcamps for some reason, which makes no rational sense to me.
Boot campers from 2020-2023, how are work options for you now? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I don't work at a bootcamp no, I'm a moderator of the sub and I use Reddit from notifications and I also am VERY engaged and comment a lot. For this post I got notified because of certain thresholds and then reviewed them and commented things I felt like commenting on.
Boot campers from 2020-2023, how are work options for you now? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
This is why I try hard to contribute up to date analysis based on what information is publicly available out there and synthesizing it.
I take some heat but I think it's important for people to know the reality of the market and make the decision to join a bootcamp for the right reasons.
Can someone explain to me how the job market is different now compared to 2020 for bootcamp graduates? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I tell it how it is and Formation would be WAY better off if thousands of people went to bootcamps and went to Formation down the road, which is why I emphasize that these are my personal opinions. Our investors might get angry at me for deterring people away. Maybe read all of these comments instead of my little post :P: https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/s/maKdYSF2CC
Speaking on behalf of Formation, we do not accept bootcamp grads without any work experience right now and haven't for at least a year and they are not our target audience. If you are a bootcamp grad and can't get a job for a year, good luck, we can't help you, but come to Formation in a year or two after you do get a first job and we can help with the second, third, fourth, and fifth.
Boot campers from 2020-2023, how are work options for you now? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Hang in there. The transition to SWE isn't about the first job... the job is the BEGINNING and not the END.
If you stick it out 2 years, try to get promoted along the way, you are in good shape to transition to a new company that is hopefully more exciting.
Try to be open minded about how the day to day works though. I see a number of bootcampers get laid off or hit a wall down the road because no one prepared them to succeed on the job.
Boot campers from 2020-2023, how are work options for you now? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Thanks for being transparent about that. I personally love reading success stories, but they also shouldn't sway people to do bootcamps right now.
A less extreme version of a lottery winner saying "hey lottery worked for me, but you really shouldn't bank your own life on winning the lottery"
Boot campers from 2020-2023, how are work options for you now? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Thanks for sharing. This is the path Codesmith is calling the "Modern Engineer" by the way, which I strongly disagree with.... you aren't a modern engineer and instead took non SWE roles, and that's ok!!
I think your path is great for a bootcamp grad and while you aren't a SWE yet, you found a way to apply.yoir new technical skills to a more interesting job and it took a could of hops to get there.
Congrats! And good on you for keeping the motivation going.
2024 Bootcamp Predictions [MIDYEAR CHECKIN AND UPDATES!] · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah sure. I feel confident about reviewing resumes but ultimately lack of experience can't be worked around.
But like in the other commenters case. If you have a project that has 4000 daily users and is live - that IS actually experience and that is like a "startup" and should count for experience. So sometimes there are ways to frame things in a better light.
2024 Bootcamp Predictions [MIDYEAR CHECKIN AND UPDATES!] · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I wouldn't worry about GitHub if you have the user numbers.
RESUME FEEDBACK PDF VERSION (this is time-boxed to 3 mins so it's my quick feedback and it's my personal opinions:
1. Move "Technical Skills" to the very bottom
2. Move "Education" second from the bottom
3. Remove edX bootcamp from education
4. Rename "Revature (Contracted to Bank of America)" to "Bank of America (via Revature)"
5. Rename "Software Development Apprenticeship" to "Software Engineer - Contract"
6. Keep YouTube as is but link to the channel if possible if it has 3M subs
7. Add your newest position
8. Remove Car-rental-app
9. Expand the other two projects and move them to Experience
All of the metrics are good examples of impact. I would link to the sources so people can see even more than just the raw numbers.
2024 Bootcamp Predictions [MIDYEAR CHECKIN AND UPDATES!] · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Can I give you notes on your resume here? Happy to give via DM but it might be helpful to others to give them publicly too. This would be in a personal capacity and not representing Formation.
Your projects sound GREAT. They key is having real users and you have more than 99.5% of bootcamp grad 's personal projects.
These will help you in interviews (if you also speak about them well).
Your problem is going to be getting interviews because of lack of experience. You can't fabricate experience, but you can at least present what you have more strongly.
That said, you have a strong background for a non traditional engineer, so you have some ingredients to worth with at least.
2024 Bootcamp Predictions [MIDYEAR CHECKIN AND UPDATES!] · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati posted · · edited ★ FEATURED
2024 Bootcamp Predictions [MIDYEAR CHECKIN AND UPDATES!]
The past two years I've been making bootcamp predictions and [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/18ivago/2024_bootcamp_predictions_mega_post_revisiting_my/) is a link to my 2024 ones from six months ago.
I want to share my background for context in the spirit of openness and transparency. I try to write the best content I can, but everyone has biases and it's important to evaluate ones biases for every post you read.
BACKGROUND: I co-founded a mentorship platform and work with many bootcamp graduates as they progress in their careers and I'm a heavy contributor (and moderator) of this sub. Before this, I was at Facebook from 2009 to 2017, where I grew from intern to E7 principal engineer, conducted over 450 interviews, and participated in hiring committees. I keep in touch with hundreds of my former colleagu…
Thoughts? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
SimilarGlass5: 100% of comments about Codesmith (past 4 years)
Mean\_Rough1137: 100% of comments about Codesmith
Infinite-Platform-78: 100% of comments about Codesmith
A bunch of the other accounts on my list are permanently banned from Reddit.
I also want to know why these people do what they do with fake accounts.
Can someone explain to me how the job market is different now compared to 2020 for bootcamp graduates? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I'm not promoting that at all, it's just a fact that a number of bootcamp grads do that to get jobs and I'm reporting on the facts.
Can someone explain to me how the job market is different now compared to 2020 for bootcamp graduates? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Not just bootcamps grads, but there are almost no entry level jobs. The ones that exist at big companies are going through traditional pipelines, i.e. University Recruiting (recruiters go to top schools -> recruit interns and promote brand of company -> interns who do well get full time offers when graduating)
Apprenticeships are the ideal option (in my opinion) but are really slim in this market too. We had someone go to Pinterest and there was a like a dozen or two people chosen out of thousands and thousands (over ten thousand allegedly?) applications. Airbnb and Asana similarly have had fairly small cohorts this year.
Your options are:
1. Try to come across as a more experienced engineer and go to a non-tech company that doesn't really know the difference, and do well on interviews to impress them.
2. Do contract work and try to get by for 2 years until you have enough experience…
The "Modern Software Engineer": Refuting the "lawyer engineer" and instead an argument for Specialization + Collaboration · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Yeah extending my views to Codesmith specifically, if they can get people placed in tech, but not SWE jobs, I think they can keep going and rebrand as a "get your first job in tech" as opposed to be "become a software engineering leader"
We're going to need a TON of customer service rep - engineer hybrids to help navigate this evolving world, such as debugging self driving cars for customers in real time, and some of Codesmith's recent placements have been in this area. Great, high paying, tech jobs that are not "software engineering" roles.
They might have a giant market of people who do like customer support, operational logistics, product management, and other jobs where have a "engineer mindset' might help people navigate a world of AI and rapidly changing tools.
And more experienced software engineers can build those actual tools.
If they have enough humility to accept reality I…
The "Modern Software Engineer": Refuting the "lawyer engineer" and instead an argument for Specialization + Collaboration · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Wow yeah that context definitely changes things. Maybe send me a DM. This is exactly why it's impossible to take advice from random people on Reddit who are like 'X changed my life!".... each person's circumstances are so different.
The "Modern Software Engineer": Refuting the "lawyer engineer" and instead an argument for Specialization + Collaboration · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Hi, yeah pros and cons. I'm assuming you are talking about a contract that is effective the same day to day as SWEs on the team but just limited time. If you are being hired to do an isolated, standalone project, then some of the PROS don't apply.
PROS:
1. Real work on your resume is better than projects or volunteering
2. Cash flow can help you have better support, well being and emotional state during the long term job hunt. I wouldn't underestimate the importance of this. A lot of people get super demotivated in the job hunt and it's a factor in success.
3. If the rols is effectively full time but it's a small company that can't hire you as a W2 then I would treat it as a W2 job on your resume and not frame it as a contract.
4. If you renew or extend the contract, that can be a positive signal you did well - a little like a promotion.
5. If you can do 2-3 contracts for 2+ years…
The "Modern Software Engineer": Refuting the "lawyer engineer" and instead an argument for Specialization + Collaboration · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah my thoughts were more theoretical, like if I was running a program or trying to plan for the industry and find systematic trends to advise based on. But if I was advising someone one on one I would say to use every single thing you can to try to get a foot in the door and leverage the heck out of your background in any way you can.
My advice once you get that job is to go all in on being an engineer and not trying to further bank on your background to either get a leg up or just survive. You have to be a really good standalone engineer first and after you got the senior level you can start specializing and applying your unique experience to impacting the company and developing your area of expertise.
The "Modern Software Engineer": Refuting the "lawyer engineer" and instead an argument for Specialization + Collaboration · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I agree in practice as well. We're going to need all kinds of programmers and tech-adjacent roles in the future and more and more non-tech jobs will be tech influenced.
I think going to a bootcamp is a way to get some tech experience to even help in those roles!
My argument is that one bootcamp is already pushing these adjacent jobs as the roles the "Leader\[s\] in the Software Engineering Industry" are taking and I'm pushing back that that I beleive that narrative is false.
My BootCamp experience so far · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
>I discovered that my job has a program where they pay for various coding bootcamps and other educational certifications and courses, which felt like a heaven-sent opportunity at the time
AND
>I plan on coming back with an update after I graduate and up until I get a job. Fingers crossed!
1. Can you clarify the above? Your current job is paying for you to do a bootcamp, so you can leave the company and go somewhere else? Or you'll be getting a job at your current company as a SWE?
>Watching YouTube videos of other people's experiences with bootcamps has also been inspiring, and I foresee this being an incredibly lucrative experience for me career-wise.
2. This is a MAJOR RED FLAG and almost reads like ChatGPT wrote this... can you clarify which YouTube videos are telling you this?
Can a person with 0 degree and with 2 years experience as an accountant get into the career as a software developer only through boot camps? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Was this Per Scholas / TekSystems bootcamp -> job
The "Modern Software Engineer": Refuting the "lawyer engineer" and instead an argument for Specialization + Collaboration · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati posted · · edited ★ FEATURED
The "Modern Software Engineer": Refuting the "lawyer engineer" and instead an argument for Specialization + Collaboration
Hey everyone, friendly neighborhood moderator sharing my person opinions on this topics for all of you getting into software engineering. My background is started programming with QBasic and Lego Mindstorms when I was 12, worked at Meta from 2009 to 2017 (from \~200 engineers to \~10,000 engineers) and was the #1 code committer when I left. And since then have started a mentorship and interview prep platform for people with several years of experience who are changing jobs or want to prepare to change jobs. NOTE: I have some amount of bias because I work with a number of bootcamp grads later in their careers. While my company doesn't compete with bootcamps directly, I want to openly disclose my background so you can interpret my comments better.
PURPOSE: I'm writing…
Just signed on to Tripleten starting bootcamp July 25th · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
This is the referrer policy showing that for every signup OP generates they get $500: [https://docs.tripleten.com/legal/referral.html](https://docs.tripleten.com/legal/referral.html)
This is the job guarantee: [https://docs.tripleten.com/support/employment.html](https://docs.tripleten.com/support/employment.html)
Just signed on to Tripleten starting bootcamp July 25th · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Posting referral links is banned in this sub-reddit because we don't want people sharing posts for direct financial gain.
Sadly these posts offering to share referral links do more damage than good to the bootcamps because they make the programs seem sketchy and like ads or product placement.
I'm going to leave this up since you didn't directly share a code, but consider removing it if you don't want TripleTen to look like a scam.
I feel stuck · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Is the professional developer an alumni of the bootcamp itself?
Real post bootcamp grad experience · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
+1 that you can see from the narrative that while this path is fantastic, it relied on the first job '3 months post bootcamp' in 2022.
Right now people can't get entry level jobs. They are lying to get more advanced jobs, or they are taking tangential jobs.
The long term trajectory of someone in these 'new' scenarios is a lot different than those in the past.
Does attending Grace Hopper 2024 still worth it? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yes! Despite the issues last year with a lot of men showing up to try to get jobs, I think it's worth while going if you can. Just make the most of it!
Sick of influencers still pushing bootcamps!?! · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
This is correct. Codesmith claims to not to ANY display advertising. Although a former employee was configuring Google Ads for them and they log a lot of stuff to various advertisers, they aren't running standard ads.
They put that budget to running free public events and their blog. Those events and posts are marketing. They were run by a marketing director (who was laid off end of last year) and they are bread and butter marketing.
Alumni telling others about Codesmith is also marketing.
At Codesmith, the **community is the product** - **you are the product** (they have almost no actual "code" that runs anything at Codesmith, just a website and a lot of Google Docs and 3rd party services) so you spreading the good word of Codesmith means they succeeded in their product efforts.
Knowledge vs years of experience!? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I'll DM you.
Knowledge vs years of experience!? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Focus on getting promoted one level at a time.
Have weekly 1-1 meetings with your manager. Tell them you want to get promoted to the next level as your goal and ask what areas you need to improve in to be there.
Then work through those areas and every week ask how it's going.
When you feel you have hit all the areas, you should be an easy promotion for the manager.
Then you start working at the next level.
Note that all this has nothing to do with any specific technologies. It's about playing the game of what your company needs and defines at different levels. Which sounds kind of robotic but it's a systematic way of getting promoted and controlling your destiny.
Review of TripleTen's 9 Month Data Science Bootcamp + Promo Code · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Ah ok they added fine print to the website "\*Depends on performance and projects' availability"
For all the pros and cons, they have good legal people buttoning up their terms and fine print :D
Review of TripleTen's 9 Month Data Science Bootcamp + Promo Code · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Does your job guarantee apply if you if you don't get an externship because of lack of supply on their part? If it doesn't that's a major red flag to me (personal opinon).
Sick of influencers still pushing bootcamps!?! · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Two kinds of pushing:
1. If it's a paid advertisement, then they have to disclose that transparently legally. If it's a paid advertisement and the product is bad, then their reputation is on the line and that's the check and balance. Top influencers should be vetting the products they advertise.
2. If it's not a paid advertisement, then it's not different than someone like me with a voice posting on Reddit their opinions.
Stepping into the world of coding · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
The cheapest bootcamp in that price range I know of is NuCamp. Which is similar content to online courses but with live sessions and support.
Learning coding is a lot of private trial and error and banging your head against the wall until it works - and then STILL not fully understanding why until years later haha.
Bootcamps and live interaction can help with accountability and setting a path through the tremendous amount of noise.
FWIW going to a bootcamp to LEARN and not to GET A JOB is definitely an option I would recommend, just don't could on the program getting you a job right now.
Thoughts? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I don't care enough to deep dive, but people with all kinds of relationships have sent me screenshots of conversations and I know that at various points in time it has been a) alumni, b) staff members, c) leaders but I really have no idea who's doing it now.
What I do know is that, like all bootcamps, Codesmith isn't doing well now. They might be even doing better than many others, but as you said, best of crap might be crap - which I don't think any of the top bootcamps are at all).
The "cult vibes" I also don't have a direct source of, but I have three notes:
1. The CEO speaks about the "community" he's built over 9 years as the product that Codesmith built, not the curriculum and not the class. So if you are an alumni, you ARE THE PRODUCT of Codesmith and if they did a good job, you were produced to be a strong community member.
2. CEO Control - this is multi-part. First, they ha…
Thoughts? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I was talking to someone recently about a top tier bootcamps and "selection bias". If a program survived/survives off of identify special people that work for the program and admitting them, it's going to be limited to 1) the number of "special people" the program can find, and 2) the market wanted these "special people"
We've seen both hurt previously great bootcamps. Some lowered the bar and took anyone who would pay. Others haven't adapted to the market.
The new wrench in the current market is that the people might not be getting "software engineer" jobs at all. A top bootcamp that is just barely getting by right now (as all the top bootcamps are) has been highlighting placements as support engineers, or prompt engineers, or lawyer engineer, and things that aren't even SWE jobs anymore.
... so I guess in my rambling, maybe there's option #3 - change the definition of the expected…
Thoughts? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
People can take exams but I don't know any laws or regulations (I'm not a lawyer though!) that require it for software engineers.
Thoughts? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I'm not sure but I haven't seen this before a problem in the US before
Thoughts? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Experience. And you get experience by having experience.
....which is why this subreddit has so much controversy haha