Currently not recommending any bootcamps overall for everyone and only recommending specific ones to specific people based on their personal circumstances.
Unfortunately there have been so many downsizings and meetings that and layoffs that even a bootcamp that was good six months ago but be completely different now.
Someone on YouTube just started Codesmith this week and said it seemed like a "cult" and their instructors can't answer basic questions and the CEO is never around and the person seemed very upset. And while I've always criticized Codesmith, it seems to be getting worse and worse the more they shed staff. I used to recommend them as a top bootcamp and paused when they made major cutbacks in February and promised tons of changes. Then officially recommended avoiding them after they didn't make many changes and started new marketing campaigns doubling down on their mediocre…
The whole point is that many of these could be bad bootcamps but they seem to get the award for marketing or for arbitrary reasons and it means nothing and you are being manipulated.
Launch School has one too but wasnt in the first 100 I looked at. There are more but I didn't have time to keep going and if I did, I would build a scrapper extract all of them.
Course Report "Best Bootcamp of 2024" awards appear to be a scam to me (in my personal opinion). Don't fall for it.
I saw a bootcamp and it's CEO produly talking about how they got a Best Bootcamp of 2024 award from Course Report and were so proud of their team for getting the award.
I looked into this a bit more.
1. DOZENS OF BOOTCAMPS (like any legitimate bootcamp it appears) got a best bootcamp of 2024 award. It was hard to find common bootcamps that did NOT get the award.
2. It appears that all or almost all of the bootcamps that pay Course Report for marketing got the award (2U bootcamps didn't and are shutting down)
3. One of the bootcamps that got the award had ONE REVIEW IN ALL OF 2024 and somehow still got the award.
4. Another bootcamp paid their graduates with gift cards to write reviews and Course Report still gave them a best bootcamp award.
**54 out of the first 100 lis…
We don't support mobile clients for benchmarking and that one's a known issue we have - we have a lot to improve for our mobile technical content experience as it's all been designed for larger format devices
u/watermeeloon Can you try viewing the results page again? We can only give a signal if you complete more than 1 question on a given topic, but there was an issue with aggregating those scores that is resolved now.
Yeah this. The best engineers are the ones with non traditional paths, but 95% of bootcamp grads struggle due to lack of experience and it takes a while to catch up. I've seen many catch up eventually but they have to acknowledge the gaps and work through them to build confidence.
There's a dangerous trend of bootcamp grads exaggerating their experience and overcoming imposter syndrome in doing so, but that's all cult-like dangerous stuff.
I stand by my statement that bootcamps pivoting to AI are a short term cash grab on their alumni. 2U will be able to market AI courses to their 98000 graduates. But it's too early to know if any AI course will be effective and what they will end up looking like down the road.
But on the other hand, this is probably a better move than continuing bootcamps. They make a great case why bootcamps make no sense anymore for everyone and not just for them.
There are a lot of coding bootcamp grads that fake their first resumes because they have nothing to lose and I highly don't recommend it, but I see a lot of people doing it.
They will frame their non SWE jobs as SWE jobs, frame personal projects as self-employed work experience, etc...
So many people have done it that a lot of companies throw your resume in the trash now if you have a bootcamp and it's really sad because the people who are qualified for jobs won't get seen.
So now bootcamp grads are creating shell companies and paper trails for their "work" and really taking it to the next level.
You'll see a lot of polarization on Reddit - one camp says "fake it til you make it" or the "ends justify the means", the other camps says lying is destroying the integrity of the industry.
It's ultimately up to you.
You have to read your contract because it completely depends on the terms you agreed to when you started.
Some offer partial refunds and some don't offer any refunds.
Yeah good point, the compensation overall is lower for SWEs but our contract is based on your GAIN IN BASE SALARY in USD over your current job, so Canadians pay less if the gain is lower.
I would leave it off, but it can go either way. Feel free to send me your resume to look at. 3 years should get you interviews, but this trajectory isn't that uncommon. I think with a good resume, networking, and flexibility in the job location you'll find something.
1. There is room for some self taught people who are naturally gifted in programming to enter via a bootcamp-like path, but it's not a scalable and reproducible path.
2. All the bootcamps pivoting to "Gen AI for existing engineers" - **run for the hills** \- these are cash grabs to take alumni's money leveraging their strong brand with those alumni.
The statement is a bit hyperbolized but it's true.
Bootcamp grads resumes get thrown in the trash and it's why you see grads from places like Codesmith not mentioning at all that they went there and putting 3 week long group projects as 1 years of work experience instead.
It's so sad to me when I see someone proudly talk about their "first SWE job" bootcamp placement and then you look them up on LinkedIn and see "3 years as SWE at self employed" (some made up experience).
This kind of thing has exhausted the industry and they now throw bootcamp resumes on the trash.
It's harsh but true and you have to figure out how to navigate the industry instead of pretending this isn't true and being delusional.
First, I would consider a masters degree. It will make you eligible for new grad jobs again and you can do another go around.
If you are struggling to get interviews now, a bootcamp isn't going to change anything at all.
Second, there are no "machine learning " bootcamps. It's something you need to spend a few years on.
There are bootcamps offering "generative AI" which is a cash-grab like Web3 bootcamps were during the last crypto boom. If you are a CS grad an do a gen AI bootcamp you also won't get anything helpful at all at getting a job.
If you are an absolute beginner you should start with FreeCodeCamp and Codecademy.
Don't start with DS&A until you are comfortable with basic syntax of the languages and concepts like conditionals and loops.
Yeah it's expensive and it's not like we have some magic spell to cast to hand you a job either.
The goal is to increase your annual compensation by way more than the cost. The average placed Fellow in 2024 from their self reported placement forms, increased their first year comp by over $100K and that's how you can justify the cost.
Now can you do it on your own and get the same increase without paying us? Of course and it's different for each person.
For example, someone might not want to negotiate their offer and we make it completely painless to increase the offer by $20K, paying for Formation itself regardless of the other increase.
Some people do like 30 mock interviews (which are run completely like REAL interviews with real engineers), which would cost them way more with a competitor.
Some people make like $150K already and an hour of their time is valuable so they would rat…
Hey /u/[8um8lebee](https://www.reddit.com/user/8um8lebee/),
Yeah, I mean very bluntly, you're not alone and we (my company) works with a lot of people like you - experienced engineers who need help navigating, preparing for, and interviewing at top tier FAANG-ish companies that ask DS&A, SD, etc... In 2024, everyone who has started has 1 to 30 years of industry experience, typically around 5 to 8 right now.
There are a class of programs that focus on interview prep that aren't bootcamps but help you prepare specifically for interviews. They are good options if you are getting interviews on your own and not passing. Formation is my company, Interview Kickstart is our main competitor and both of us prepare you comprehensively for top tier companies, and Interviewing.io and Hello Interview focus JUST on mock interviews.
You will get iOS topics as well but 75% of your interviews will be…
This is a tough position to be in, but I see it fairly commonly. Bootcamps are happy to promote their placed alumni and for them your outcome is the END, but for your, the first job is the beginning, the journey is 1% finished.
There isn't a magic answer, it's harder for bootcamps grads than CS grads to nurture their careers once they get them.
Getting a masters isn't a bad idea, not just to get a job, but to fill in gaps you have, It's not THE gauranteed answer but it's a good step on your journey.
This sub has evidence of active manipulation so it wouldn't surprise me if people are manipulating the poll.
Reddit is a tough place. You have people shilling all kinds of things with networks of anonymous fake accounts that manipulate entire threads.
Reddit recently sent out a survey to mods to see if you can tell fake content from real content and it's a big problem they are fighting hard.
I've been personally attacked by a ton of fake accounts and almost all of them are "permanently suspended" from Reddit now.
I would say to only trust people who have been here for a long time and have a clear history to look at. But one of the most prominent bootcamps with their CEO with a fabulous account, paid some guy on Upwork to promote their bootcamp across Reddit.
So really you can't trust anyone.
40% of people getting jobs in yeah would be evidence that bootcamps should shut down and call it day. Codesmith was pulling 80% in 6 months in the boomtimes and 40% in a year means the model doesn't work anymore.
>If you’re asking questions about bootcamps or the job market, maybe try to avoid advice from grads who got hired before late 2022.
\+1 to this. I've noticed the pre-2022 grads who used to argue with me about a specific bootcamp have entirely stopped and a number have reconciled to various degrees with me about it as they see how things are right now.
People have sent me LinkedIns (e.g. "Codesmith just said my friend got a job and they were placed 7 months ago, see : <linkedin>") so I'm assuming you would be able to look up people on LinkedIn and see.
I haven't done it for a long time but I used to look through the LinkedIns, and analyze just the work history. If you haven't done that it opens your eyes to how some people are getting jobs. A number of them have YEARS of experience listed.
I can't comprehend how it got normalized behavior for like someone to on slack and tell their cohort like 'hi everyone I got my first job, I'm so nervous and excited but want to thank all my cohort makes, I couldn't have done it without you!' and then silently their LinkedIn says they had 3 years of SWE experience that was really them having a Euphoria fan site on Squarespace with zero code and that clearly was how their resume got through.... (thi…
Are the Codesmith announcements:
1. people's promotions and 2nd or 3rd jobs
2. people reporting jobs several months after they placed
3. people job hunting for around a year or more
The reason I ask is that people have pointed out that Codesmith recently started adding alumnis new jobs to those announcements and intermixing them with new placements.
I do agree with the "Codesmith Method" of applying for jobs though. I also talked to a number of grads about it. Based on their sentiment I think there is a reason people have removed themselves from the Alumni List because they were being inundated with Codesmith grads who have zero experience. One person told me they removed themselves because they felt so awkward, like people attending timeshare meetings and feeling they have to listen to this embellished pitch and just want to get the heck out.
Because some bootcamps pay people on Upwork to 'manage their reputations' and they go around manipulating Reddit all day churning through dozens of accounts. DM for hundreds of pages of evidence.
Experts tend to have humility but having humility doesn't make you an expert. Manipulators might fake humility to build false-trust, but that's beyond Dunning-Kruger and into genine intentionally manipulation.
Good question and a bit of a meta question - giving guidance in identifying experts means you need an expert in that skill to give guidance :D
There isn't an objective definition of expert, but over the years the people I consider true industry experts have these traits in common:
1. They limit their expertise to areas they are actually experts in and not every topic under the sun. Dan Abramov is a good example of this... very direct about what he knows and doesn't know about React.
2. They have extensive industry experience - meaning a combination of **TIME** (5 to 10+ years in a given focus area) AND their experience was in some kind of not-common way that give the person **insights** another person might not have. Dan Abramov again for example, he didn't start React but he was involved on the internals for a long time and co-founded Redux from that. Whereas some random bootcamp gra…
The Dunning-Kruger Effect and bootcamps. Watch out for bootcamps/AI bootcamps taught by people with minimal experience who call themselves "experts"... this is the Dunning-Kruger effect in motion and if you don't know any better, you might believe it.
I was talking to someone recently about Dunning-Kruger and they never heard of it, so I wanted to share!
**CONTEXT:**
Imposter syndrome is real in tech. Even the most experienced engineers with 10+ years of experience barely know 1% of the frameworks out there and can easily feel like an imposter.
Bootcamp grads are constantly told they have imposter syndrome, and some bootcamps work hard to overcome this. Which is important, because while it's totally fine to not know much, it can't be an excuse and you have to be **confident in not knowing much** and have the attitude and techniques to work with that and grow over time.
**THE PROBLEM…
In my first year of college I did two data structures and algorithms courses (one per semester) and they were mandatory because it formed the foundation of all the other stuff we did year 2 and beyond:
Off the top of my head, they were legit blockers for these courses I remember
\- operating systems
\- distributed systems
\- databases
\- systems programming
\- computer graphics
\- software engineering 1, 2, and 3
\- human computer interaction
\- electrical engineering 1, 2
\- linear algebra for programmers
Probably more, but if you didn't get that stuff solid in year 1, you had no hope in year 2+.
I agree with most of this, two comments:
1. I completely agree when you zoom out, 12 week Coding Bootcamps make absolutely no sense to make you think you'll get a job. For every 10 bootcampers that get a job, I estimate that 8 out of 10 have problems keeping it. Could be an unstable company, could be you are in over your head, could be you fake it until you make it and leave before not making it. It keeps me employed because bootcampers tend to have a lot of problems later on... and we only focus on interview skills - one part of the problem.
It's questionable when bootcamps like Codesmith tell people they have the "capacities" to be a "mid level or senior engineer" with ZERO work experience just by going through a 12 week program.
If you fall for the marketing and believe it, you should watch some MLM videos, crypto scam videos, and cult documentaries about areas you aren't familiar…
Any coding bootcamp offering you anything in 4 weeks, 8 weeks, .... up to 16 weeks is not a "bootcamp" preparing you for a job, but rather a course. Kind of like a community college course except maybe doing 5 of them at once in 10 hour long days.
You end up with a semester's worth of stuff crammed so fast that you might not even remember a lot.
On the other hand, self paces programs tend to lose people when they get hard, because it's super easy to sign up with a "job guarantee" and then never graduate and never be eligible for the refund. So these programs attract people who aren't fully committed.
Two options:
1. I like Launch School's model, the "slow path" to a career.
2. Part time but rigid schedules can work better as a compromise.
But overall, market is not hiring bootcamp grads with no experience and best of the worst still isn't good.
Hi! I'm the co-founder of Formation. Sorry about your experience, I'm not sure what happened, but if you DM me I can look into it. Most of our team was off today for an extra holiday because the time has been operating at 110% and we wanted to give them an extra day off.
I absolutely recommend talking to alumni and current Fellows as well. Specifically ones with a similar background to yourself. We also change quite fast so I would try to take to someone who started in the past few months.
We have a surprising number of people who come back to Formation for future job hunts and pay us a second or third time, because each time is different and unique, so that's why talking to the people most similar to you is important.
The day to day at Formation is quite unique, and unlike anything else so we really want you to learn how it works and be on the same page, otherwise it's a waste of tim…
I also get reached out to a ton about this stuff (and also people offering humans who are experts in AI to consult for us).
The problem right now is the stuff is so new that if you build something using Gen AI tools or you claim to be an expert in Gen AI.... it hasn't been around long enough that I can't just do what you did or learn what you did.
I was the number one code committer at Meta when I left in the entire company and my specialty is volume. I cranked out an AI tool in literally 20 mins on Friday that will REDUCE the need for additional help by making something 5X faster.
I also know the limitations of AI tools and the key problem to solve is how to have humans work in tandem with AI tools to deliver a solid experience and not how to replace humans with AI tools (whether for efficiency or for a better product than humans alone).
My point being that it's kind of the wild wes…
Yeah exactly, that's why people tell me this stuff, they need the support and aren't happy about it.
It can make people feel like they have to pay for this AI course to continue to get people's attention.
I stand by my opinion that if they have the resources to build this AI course, those resources should first make sure their SWE immersive is in good shape first. The instructors working on AI should be doing these career services.
Again, I see the argument for abandoning alumni and going all on in AI stuff - which is the trend - they just can't in the same breath say that SWE students are getting a world class best experience.
Update: an alumni told me they can't even book any mock interviews with anyone anymore and that November has no times available for mocks, resume evaluations, etc...
I'm super concerned Codesmith is going all in on AI and the SWE immersive is imploding behind them :(
I don't think I have a "typical Reddit attitude" but agree with the message that if you can't figure out what Python is or the basics of WHAT you want to be studying on your own enough, you should be expecting a very long journey into coding and a lot of work on building problem solving muscles that are critical for programmers.
I don't think just "googling it" is the answer, but 90% of the job of an engineer is to figure out stuff on your own and the learning process is about building the muscles to do that.
If those skills don't come naturally to you, you'll have a long journey ahead to build them,
\+1. I should have maybe talked about this more, but I think AI will create a ton of new jobs that don't exist at the intersection of tech and other fields.
I actually think Codesmith is philosophically most aligned with me on this of the 4 but they are going about it in a really weird way for marketing it haha, which is an artifact of this pivot.
They can't say overnight "all you 3500 SWEs that paid us $70M over the past 10 years.... we're no longer making SWEs and we're instead making prompt engineering lawyers"
They can do the following over the course of 2 years though:
1. redefine SWE as the "modern engineer", someone who is less coding focused on has broad capacities to solve any problems
2. re-target the definition of the "problems" to "legal prompt engineering"
3. most of these "SWEs" start getting these "X prompt engineering" roles.
4. they remove the word SWE and call th…