u/fluffyr42 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I agree about taking review sites/CIRR (or any outcomes numbers) with a grain of salt. Review sites are always going to attract very positive or very negative reviews, and rarely anything in between. As for outcomes numbers, I think it's a good sign if a bootcamp's numbers are au
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
\+1 to this. We're working on some form of outcomes reporting at Formation. It's so hard to try to communicate outcomes. Not just trying to showoff big numbers to win some imaginary contest, but to show numbers that help a prospective engineer figure out if the program is right for them or not, like outcomes by incoming engineer experience levels, and outcomes by location.
CIRR assumed everyone in a bootcamp would have no experience and so it doesn't differentiate people at different experience levels. And CIRR standards were last updated before COVID played out and a lot of jobs moved to remote.
u/fluffyr42 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
This is super helpful! Just from anecdotal experience, it sounds like people are having hit or miss experiences with Hack Reactor recently. I'm also hearing mixed feedback on Codesmith, with students wanting a more hands on experience. I'd also realllllllly take it with a grain o
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
We just went through a period of time where some companies with extremely high cash-compensation and low equity and performance bonus compensation (i.e. Amazon and Capital One) were hiring people left right and center if they had a pulse, no criminal record, and could solve Leetcode Medium problems under pressure.
Codesmith got a lot of credit for their 2021 outcomes on Reddit, based on how well they optimize the job hunting strategy for those companies above. And I suspect they will also be hit very hard in their outcomes with the 2nd half of 2022 and be overly blamed on Reddit as "Codesmith falling apart". It will be a whole year from now before we'll see those results though! which is far too long IMO.
As I learned at Facebook: when there is good press about you, things are never as good as people say, and when there is bad press things are never usually that bad. Codesmith as a school has done a great job scaling while maintaining the same quality of instruction they had at much smaller scale and their leaders are probably just as equally passionate about teaching and training. Their H2 2021 outcomes were really high, but they were delayed compared to others and downplayed on Codesmith's marketing (their website is very out of date) and I think they are expecting the next wave of outcomes to be lower and already on top of the marketing strategy haha.
u/ChipmunkSea7628 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Don’t do ISA! For anything ever lol
u/michaelnovatireplied·
ISAs are not all bad! ISAs are highly unregulated and currently still just an independent contract between two parties. So a lot of how an ISA should be perceived is ultimately in how much you trust the people the program you are looking to work with,
u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
> but basically any good outcomes report should tell you how every single number is calculated and word is defined. Always, always, always read outcomes reports critically.
Well CIRR is basically Codesmith advertisement at this point so I'll address this point from that perspect
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
I feel like a lot of people don't read CIRRs actual spec word for word. CIRR doesn't require audited results before reporting. They required you to audit your reports once a year after they are submitted. I assume most people audit them before, but let's not throw the word "audit" out there like it's a gold standard. FTX was "audited" as well.
The CIRR spec also makes you promise to only use specific numbers in marketing, and those numbers are maneuvered to look in the best light possible, like the placement rate within 180 days of graduating. BloomTech has a 90% placement rate, but around a 50% graduation rate. One of those numbers is in giant letters all over the place - but it's manipulatable. (EDIT: BloomTech is not in CIRR, but I'm stating an analogous point based on their audited results. And it's not in giant letters, but it's in their main banner on their homepage.)
Codesmith uses the Fellow program to add 3 months to people's job hunting clocks. I don't want to disclose any sources, which limits the credibility of this point, but people are noticing more and more "fellows" being hired, like around 8 per cohort instead of 3, like during 2021.
EDIT: this is not meant to be a criticism of Codesmith. They aren't a charity, they are a company, and it's extremely irrational for them to not try to make their company succeed and they are trying to have a positive impact on people while doing it.
u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I'm all for being skeptical but I think you owe it to be a little more detailed when you say don't trust CIRR. I'm assuming this is in regards to Codesmith who just recently joined the CIRR board a few months ago, meaning all the 2019-2021 results were submitted without being aff
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I commented above. In re-reading it the tone might come across intense, but I have a lot of respect for you on Reddit and don't mean it to read that way.
u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
If the accusation is that Codesmith is padding their stats, which I don't necessarily doubt because it's in every companies best interest to portray themselves in the best possible light, I think there needs to be context as to how much padding is suspected.
If Codesmith claims
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
My non-data-backed hunch based on anecdotal reporting is it's around 50% within six months for recent cohorts. Every 3 fellows hired per cohort could boost that by \~10% and the way they describe fellows as being hired is completely invisible to CIRR (based on their explanation in their blog post about CIRR)
Their salary stats could be much higher if only experienced people are getting placed at high salaries. Salary stats are only based on people hired and don't account for all the $0s from people not hired. You could have a 1% graduatio rate if 1 out of 100 people graduates and a 100% placement rate if the person is placed and a $500,000 median salary if that was the person's base salary.
EDIT: I have no problem with CIRR or Codesmith using CIRR. But I'm very concerned when people tout it as a "gold standard", "only trustworthy source", "independent audit" or other statements on Reddit. The reports are just the same as any other audited report from Hack Reactor, BloomTech, etc...
u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
50% within six months is worth calling out. At this point there's enough Codesmith grads that someone could conduct a study of sorts to get a lot of the data you're interested in, but that would take a lot of time so I get it's not practical to request that. I also wouldn't rule
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I want to be super clear that I fully trust their CIRR reports (acknowledging that hiring fellows can boost that a bit short term) but that their reported numbers in the past are fully reliable. The 50% is recent 2022 cohorts from earlier this year.
u/ChipmunkSea7628 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Don’t you work for a bootcamp? Of course you’d say that lol. ISA seems predatory, sorry!
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
We're not a bootcamp and yeah I should have disclosed that in that comment because of the bias. But we survey people regularly and most people want them for various reasons, and they work well if your program works with people until they get a new job.... because you train them, they get a job, then they pay you. I agree it's a little different if you don't get a job like at many bootcamps.
Or what else specifically is predatory about them?
u/someone wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I'm not sure if I'm just confused about what you are saying, but to be clear, Codesmith doesn't not consider the fellows to be "hired" for CIRR data.
This is probably in part because that would be shady but also because it would fucking tank their comp outcome numbers - fell
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
Thanks for adding more examples, I said it was not that reliable so would love to hear more examples yeah or more cases that they haven't increased that number. I also heard there are flex fellows who are not assigned to a specific cohort, but it might be a confusion of terms.
EDIT: they currently have 4 locations running at once with 2 simultaneous cohorts = 8 cohorts and on their website they have 56 current fellows (excluding instructors etc... JUST fellows). Which is about 7 per cohort. Lets be conservative and add in 2 part time remote with the same number of fellows and bring cohort count to 10. That's 5 to 6 fellows per cohort. So maybe you only see 3-4 but there are some fellows on the books doing other things, like interviews and career support, etc... (/u/bootcampben)
Yeah fellows don't show up on CIRR at all, they are basically students in a 12 week + 3 months program who "graduate" when their fellow contract ends.
I also agree you have to do something, and I think they are trying to be consistent and fair. But doesn't change the fact that it's a loophole in CIRR (well technically it's not allowed in CIRR and they are not following CIRR but their reports are accepted anyways)
EDIT: I want to keep reinforcing for anyone who reads out of context, but this is not a criticism of Codesmith doing something shady, it's explaining how CIRR itself has loopholes and issues and is not infallible (.... and nothing is)
u/Theblackroze wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I don’t have a clean record. So is pursuing a SWE job a dead end? I have a misdemeanor from over 10 years ago. But I also did my time in the military and received a TS clearance during my time and that was AFTER receiving a misdemeanor on my record. Currently still hold a TS cle
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Depends on the misdemeanor but if it shows up on background checks it could be a problem yeah. You can try a few paths. One is freelancing and contracting. The other is try to find programs for people with records that are kind of like apprenticeship-type programs and have partners who are willing to hire.
It really depends on the conviction though and what you did since then. For example, was it a drug related crime that you had rehab for and have long since forgotten. Was it something related to your life circumstances that you have since received counseling for? Was it as DUI and you have been volunteering for years to rectify your wrongs? All of those things matter and can make a difference.
But it's definitely an uphill battle as some companies might just pull back offers without asking questions. You don't HAVE to legally but if the above apply, you can try disclosing EARLY in the process and all of the things you have done since.
Oh and the farther in the past the better.