u/Significant_Wing_878 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
lol another codesimth truther. If you fail any tests in codesmith they can hide you from their CIRR reports. Go on linkedin and look at all the codesmith grads who don't have jobs
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Can you explain the CIRR thing a bit more? I've heard this thing about Codesmith excluding people from CIRR for failing tests from three people now but the people didn't fully explain or know the details. CIRR doesn't have provisions for excluding people for not passing tests). I did notice that their "graduates included in reports" on CIRR is lower than number of cohorts graduating times 35 (I don't know enough about their logistics and could be wrong here but people have said every cohort is full and waitlisted) but it did seem like people are missing, but they could also be people dropping out right or not choosing to answer the CIRR questionnaire?
u/Significant_Wing_878 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Codesmith has tests setup that are very difficult, you won't necessarily get rolled back if you don't meet their standards but you will not be asked to fill out their CIRR post graduation. Anyone who graduates CAN but they don't reach out, you basically have to ask to fill it out
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Wait so they can choose to "not ask you to fill our their CIRR", as in they like "accidentally forget to email you" wink-wink?
I mean to be completely transparent, I've heard of some sketchy things that OTHER BOOTCAMPS do, but the threats, personal insults, and backchannel badmouthing I've gotten from Codesmith employees, alumni, and students when I even talking about the pros and cons of the CIRR results is pretty crazy if this is the case and it's systematic.
Are you sure this isn't a one-off or anecdotal? Or if you have any proof or evidence can you DM me? Or report it to CIRR possibly would be a better action.
u/anachromatic wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Can you explain this line a bit more? I'm about to start a cohort in September and this discussion is kind of freaking me the fuck out hahaha.
> I did notice that their "graduates included in reports" on CIRR is lower than number of cohorts graduating times 35
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Oh to me this is a more of a paperwork/marketing type discussion, individual results vary and Codesmith is one of the top bootcamps undisputedly so you shouldn't freak out. You should always talk to people who did and are doing the program and make sure the day to day is a good fit and that your goals are aligned.
Like Codesmith people get jobs and they get good jobs compared to the other bootcamp options, like I cannot fathom that a significant number of people are excluded from CIRR and that there is a big secret coverup.
I just want to know the mechanics of this because I love diving into CIRR and working the numbers. I'm a person who memorized cereal box nutritional labels and baseball card stats and stuff as a kid :D
u/anachromatic wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Thank you, that makes a lot of sense to me. I appreciate you saying that. I tend to believe there aren't massive conspiracies, but I'm really nervous about changing fields so small things are making me afraid.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Oh sorry the 34-36 per cohort thing. Like I was under the impression that every cohort is full and that it's 34-36 people per cohort. But in CIRR reports the number of "graduates included in the report" is never a multiple of 34/35/36. But it's a very reasonable number reported so I can't imagine a ton of people being secretly not included and not showing up anywhere in complaints or forums.
u/cattac8 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I went to their info session the other week and the person leading it emphasized that Codesmith prides itself in not kicking people out based on their technical assessment scores. I am pretty sure they are required to contact everyone but obvi if someone doesn’t respond they can
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Hey, there is a required data point for "count not be contacted". For the past few years, like 8 or so reports, only one had ONE PERSON that could not be contacted according to CIRR.
u/anachromatic wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Thank you, that makes a lot of sense to me. I appreciate you saying that. I tend to believe there aren't massive conspiracies, but I'm really nervous about changing fields so small things are making me afraid.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
To give an example. LA H1 2020, 87 graduates included right. Like if they had 2 cohorts, it would be 64 to 72 right. If they had 3 cohorts it would be 102 to 108 right. So 87 graduates sounds like it could be more like 102 to 108 started and 15 people are missing. TAKE THIS WITH A GRAIN OF SALT, THERE ARE TOO MANY THING THAT COULD FACTOR IN. But given the above I was just curious if that strategy of excluding people was impacting this or not.
u/Significant_Wing_878 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
It is more of "pls fill out our CIRR" or wink wink oops we forgot to email you. No direct proof but it adds up from which students were asked and weren't
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited
Do you have any idea of how many people "weren't asked"? Like are we talking a couple of friends, or like something more like 10% of a cohort?
The reports do show people who have graduated and don't have jobs so do you have any ideas why they would ask some jobless people to do the reports and others they wouldn't? Or are the people being asked employed and just low salaries? Or is literally people who do not pass some tests?
For example, if someone makes $150K but failed the tests, they would or wouldn't get asked?
u/Potatoupe wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I mostly endorsed Codesmith because of their CIRR reports, so if it is manipulated this way then that does remove it from my top rec.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
This is 100% anecdotal at this point while it's not just one people that has said this, no has offered any proof or evidence, so I wouldn't change your recommendation unless there is something concrete and systemic.
u/Potatoupe wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
There is a large army of Codesmith supporters online and same with nucamp. I have personal experience with nucamp and its accolades don't match, so nowadays I am more likely to believe that bootcamps with overtly positive reviews just focus more on online marketing. No worries, I
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I also recommend Codesmith to a lot of people (not as the ONLY option but as an option to consider, I think Rithm school is probably the most ethical bootcamp and the founders are just such great people) and I get a lot of flak from the "army of Codesmith supporters" anytime I say anything that could be interpreted negatively. Some of the people are actually undisclosed Codesmith employees too and I ignore it haha... that's what Reddit's all about! But anyways I'll be around with my real name and pros-and-cons points of view.
u/Significant_Wing_878 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I talked to 4 codesmith grads that currently do not have jobs (All between 1-3 months out of the program), none were asked to fill out the CIRR, but one of them asked about it and after emailing to inquire about the report. They were given the form to fill out. I didn't ask them
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I just took a peek at these sections of the CIRR standards and even if they can't "contact someone" (and they have to try FOUR TIMES to classify as non-responsive) then they can't be removed from the report, they just count as not contactable. So people who are not asked to fill out the surveys should still be included in the report.
The school has to submit a list of students on day 3 to the auditors to avoid students being removed from the lists later on.
So if this is is happening, my hunch is these people are just considered "not graduated". One of the weaknesses of CIRR is that the salaries are based on PEOPLE WHO ARE EMPLOYED. So the median of $125K is of the people who reported and are employed. The 20% of other people at $0 salaries who either didn't graduate OR didn't get a job, are not included in that stat.
So my hunch is there isn't something fraudulent going on and that the people fell into one of those buckets... maybe where they either did finish the program but Codesmith considers them "not graduated".
CIRR data is collected throughout and timestamped and they probably only collect a form when you get a job. And if it's a great job they probably immediately send you the form, and if it's not a good job, maybe they do "forget" so the person is accidentally classified as still job hunting - won't hurt the salary stats.
I dunno, all of these things are things I've heard anecdotally about other bootcamps as well but it doesn't sound like the leadership is crafting a scheme to defraud the CIRR process.
This is one of my criticisms of CIRR, it's a process that's not perfect and if people find grey areas they can exploit then fine, but the people should acknowledge the strengths and weaknesses.
u/zerabellaa wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
How many lawsuits from both students and alumni have either hack reactor and codesmith had against them?
Why would a sound business have to literally rebrand themselves with a new name?
Neither CS or hack reactor have ever had unambiguously horrific exposes about them on major
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited
Lamba School renamed itself because of of a trademark lawsuit and not because of their brand. The even acquired a company in Florida called Red Lambda as a last ditch effort to bolster their case to keep the name. It was fun to follow along when it was happening and you can read the documents here: [https://dockets.justia.com/docket/california/candce/4:2019cv04060/344815](https://dockets.justia.com/docket/california/candce/4:2019cv04060/344815)
u/zerabellaa wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Did you actually read CIRR's guidelines? Grad data is collected at 180 days (6 months)
https://cirr.org/standards/standard-reporting-students-outcomes
Why would they set a deadline only 1 month post graduation? Every CIRR participating school reaches out to grads at 180 days
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
\+1 to the 1-3 month out thing comment, you need to wait for six months and not hearing anything for 1-3 months means nothing. They can collect data throughout though and not just at the 6 month mark, and there is a process for documenting this data. I believe Codesmith has an internal spreadsheet to properly log the information that is easily auditable.
I'm curious if you know anything about the "if you fail the test you can be excluded". I'm trying to defend Codesmith in this thread that this is probably some misunderstanding, and even if it was done, that it wouldn't be a big impact but it would be sketchy, but since you work at Codesmith, do you have a response or more information about that or don't know what this is about?
u/zerabellaa wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
This is false. There’s plenty of people who don’t update their linkedins btw
You think their mode of auditing is checking LinkedIn? Lol
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Uhh so this one is kind of funny but it is part of it. They obviously ask to confirm salaries and offer letters but they do check LinkedIn.
This is direct from the 2020 LA CIRR Report for Codesmith:
>Direct request of confirmation from Graduates regarding Employment outcomes and observation of LinkedIn profiles (the population was divided based on reported Salary quartiles, parameters were linked to stats which make up the report and students with salaries falling in a range determined to significantly affect stats whether directly or indirectly were included in sample).
[https://static.spacecrafted.com/b13328575ece40d8853472b9e0cf2047/r/eb6e615ccddf47e9a891a9c69f223025/1/Codesmith%20Los%20Angeles%20Full-Stack%20Software%20Development%20Audited-AUP%20H2%202020.pdf](https://static.spacecrafted.com/b13328575ece40d8853472b9e0cf2047/r/eb6e615ccddf47e9a891a9c69f223025/1/Codesmith%20Los%20Angeles%20Full-Stack%20Software%20Development%20Audited-AUP%20H2%202020.pdf)
🤷♂️
u/CenZen wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Not sure if this might account for some of them, but I’m in my third week of codesmith and we’ve already had 3 people drop out, with a fourth person considering dropping at the moment. I wouldn’t be too surprised if each cohort has a few people drop out.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Out of curiosity and unrelated, do you know why they dropped out?
u/CenZen wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I do actually! One dropped out due to a serious illness, two dropped out because they felt it was moving too slow, and the fourth is considering dropping out because she feels like she’s very far behind. Codesmith is working with her on that now, she just had a terrible experienc
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Interesting, thanks! Yeah I do know one person who also felt Codesmith was too slow as well and joined Formation (disclosure for anyone that doesn't know, I'm a co-founder and want to be transparent) after meeting the bar and being a better fit. I suspect anyone with work experience already or who is at a "leetcode medium" level Formation is probably better depending on their goals. But I honestly thought this was a small number of people... if it's a larger number this is really useful and explain some of the negative personal comments Codesmith employees and alumni have made about me haha.
I'm glad to hear they are trying hard to support someone falling behind. Despite these personal attacks I wish we could work better together and I think they really do have good intentions and care about each student. We have some fantastic Codesmith alumni at Formation who are highly motivated and awesome people.
u/Thinkinaboutu wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
>Or report it to CIRR possibly would be a better action.
I will say one of the things that does leave me scratching my head a bit is that employees/co-founders of these major bootcamps like Codesmith, Launch Academy, etc... are actually the board members for CIRR, you can see th
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Codesmith is not a board member but yeah CIRR is a business league/lobbying group. Nothing wrong with that, but people have gone on giant rants about how CIRR is the only thing that can be trusted and it's cult-like misdirection. It's reliable but you need to understand how it works, like any other source of information you rely on.
There aren't any secret conspiracies, but yeah the "standards" are created by bootcamp leaders and they are designed to help bootcamps highlight their strengths. They hide the results by adding levels of data - so first they fork off people who graduated and then they fork off people who have jobs - and then they show all their salary data.
For example, at Codesmith somewhere around 85% +/- 5% of people graduate on time and get jobs within six months, but their 125K median is only of THOSE PEOPLE and does not factor in the people who didn't get jobs or didn't graduate. And the CIRR standards work this way to make the numbers look at good as possible. In all fairness most bootcamps look pretty bad on CIRR (and many have dropped out of it) and Codesmith stands relatively strong compared to all of them.
u/Thinkinaboutu wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Obviously CS isn't a board member as a company(don't think that's possible), but "Jamaica Bryant, Director of Content & Community, Codesmith" is listed as a board member on CIRR's website.
​
I agree with pretty much everything else you say though, I don't think it's a c
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited
Oh wow you're right the whole board just changed! There were a lot of other people on it before and now there are only four now and Codesmith indeed has a representative now whereas a few weeks ago they didn't. Thank you for pointing that out!