1. Why was there such an increase in people not reporting salaries between H1 and H2 2022 data? It jumped about 14%, meaning that 14% more of the outcomes in H2 2022 did not have a reported salary (e.g. were verified by LinkedIn) compared to H1 2022.
2. How does the "Where Are They Now" data normalize for people who don't respond or cannot be reached? For example, CIRR requires you to verify the outcome of EACH graduate, whereas this data appears to be based on whoever replies to the survey. CIRR requires EACH graduate to be verified so that people who don't do as well, maybe leave the industry, etc... are counted, but in the "Where Are They Now" if people didn't do well and disengaged from the community, how are they accounted for?
3. Can you give preliminary six month placement rates for H1 2023 full time grads? Based on the CIRR reporting process, there should be a preliminary estimate in the worksheets.
u/annie-ama wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Where are they now report - this is a separate - we are extremely rigorous in contacting every single graduate in a CIRR reporting period via multiple outlets (and it's still challenging).
For WATN, we view this as more of a survey and a measure for the team to be aware of - s
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy· edited★ FEATURED
/u/[annie-ama](https://www.reddit.com/user/annie-ama/): I talk on Reddit a decent amount about data, and I'm a fan of all data with scientifically reproducible methodologies so people can tell where it came from and evaluate it. CIRR's standard is full of ambiguous or not well defined sourcing requirements as well. Still a decent standard and I like that it requires enough info so people can calculate certain important things on their own.
I mean Codesmith website wrongfully says that $127,500 is the "Software Engineering Immersive Grads Median Annual Base Salary"
The actual number is the "median annual base salary of graduates that placed and reported salaries" not of all graduates.
I'm much more concerned about that than our numbers, because we explain in paragraphs of fine print how the numbers are calculated so no one is mislead.
RE: highest total compensation - I don't think it's a good number and I don't like it. We post it because Interview Kickstart is our primary competitor and they post highest total compensation so it's something requested more often from use for whatever reason. Similar to y'all I don't think it's that important and try to talk about other information when people ask.
u/annie-ama wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Where are they now report - this is a separate - we are extremely rigorous in contacting every single graduate in a CIRR reporting period via multiple outlets (and it's still challenging).
For WATN, we view this as more of a survey and a measure for the team to be aware of - s
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
(Reposting my answer to the question because my previous one was removed and I'm not sure why)
/u/[annie-ama](https://www.reddit.com/user/annie-ama/): I talk on Reddit a decent amount about data, and I'm a fan of all data with scientifically reproducible methodologies so people can tell where it came from and evaluate it. CIRR's standard is full of ambiguous or not well defined sourcing requirements as well. Still a decent standard and I like that it requires enough info so people can calculate certain important things on their own.
I mean Codesmith website wrongfully says that $127,500 is the "Software Engineering Immersive Grads Median Annual Base Salary" without any asterix or adjacent explanation of that term.
The actual number is the "median annual base salary of graduates that placed and reported salaries" not of all graduates.
I'm much more concerned about that than our numbers, because we explain in paragraphs of fine print how the numbers are calculated so no one is misled.
RE: highest total compensation - I don't think it's a good number and I don't like it. We post it because Interview Kickstart is our primary competitor and they post highest total compensation so it's something requested more often from us for whatever reason. Similar to y'all I don't think it's that important and try to talk about other information when people ask.
u/annie-ama wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
In terms of our H1-2022 results - on the home page of the website - the data shown is the % hired and their average salary as defined by the CIRR standards linked there - [standards](https://www.cirr.org/standards) \- (80%+ got offers at the median salary in the CIRR report). Our
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy★ FEATURED
I can state officially on behalf of Formation that I am not aware of anyone in the past 12 months who received an offer/acceptance from Formation to join the Fellowship that stated to us they were considering going to Codesmith or Formation at the same time.
There are people who apply to Formation who we tell to go to Codesmith first and the come to Formation in 1-2 years but we reject them. So maybe they are telling you they are considering Formation but it's actually not an option for them in reality?
I am aware of one person in the past year who was advised to go to this path that got a job instead of going to Codesmith and then came to Formation after 6 months or so of that SWE job.
I am very much aware of the highest Codesmith offer and that person was not a SWE and had 8 years of very good experience in their field and received a role in the field at that company, so that wouldn't count for CIRR right? The person was going for the same job as my brother and he is not a SWE he's a Data Analyst.
It's very clear now where this complete false and made-up narrative is coming from on Reddit that we are competing with you.
We are not competing with you right now and we don't plan to anytime soon. If you think you are competing with us then don't portray that the other way around because it's probably false.
We are in completely agreement that the highest salary metric doesn't mean much, as I said above, and we actually agree that increase in compensation is a great metric!
But I don't think we can even talk if you are portraying Formation and Codesmith as competing options right now.
u/annie-ama wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
In terms of our H1-2022 results - on the home page of the website - the data shown is the % hired and their average salary as defined by the CIRR standards linked there - [standards](https://www.cirr.org/standards) \- (80%+ got offers at the median salary in the CIRR report). Our
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I can state officially that I am not aware of anyone in the past 12 months who received an offer/acceptance from Formation to join the Fellowship that stated to us they were considering going to Codesmith or Formation at the time and choosing between them.
There are people who apply to Formation who we tell to go to Codesmith first and the come to Formation in 1-2 years but we reject them. So maybe they are telling you they are considering Formation but it's actually not an option for them in reality?
I am aware of one person in the past year who was advised to go to this path that got a job instead of going to Codesmith and then came to Formation after 6 months or so of that SWE job.
I am very much aware of the highest Codesmith offer and that person was not a SWE and had 8 years of very good experience in their field and received a role in the field at that company, so that wouldn't count for CIRR right? The person was going for the same job as my brother and he is not a SWE he's a Data Analyst.
It's very clear now where this complete false and made-up narrative is coming from on Reddit that we are competing with you.
We are not competing with you right now and we don't plan to anytime soon. If you think you are competing with us then don't portray that the other way around because it's probably false.
We are in completely agreement that the highest salary metric doesn't mean much, as I said above, and we actually agree that increase in compensation is a great metric!
But I don't think we can even talk if you are portraying Formation and Codesmith as competing options right now.
u/Several_Top1693 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Says the person who spends all day frothing about Codesmith.
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
I explained this above that our primary competitor is interview Kickstart and they have similar numbers on their website and a lot of people ask us and then we try to explain to them why it doesn't mean that much. but since it comes up from people that are casually comparing us and Interview Kickstart we decided to put it there with multiple paragraphs of detail on how it's calculated.
We're going to updating it soon with our new highest offer with someone who really wants to put it up there for whatever reason.
u/Several_Top1693 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Just because you don't hear it, doesn't mean it's true. Codesmith has shared what they're hearing, and that's valid too.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I mean it wouldn't surprise me at all if people are showing up at Codesmith and saying that they want to join Formation soon? and should they do Codesmith at all? But that doesn't mean that we are an alternative to that program. And people aren't choosing to do Formation VS Codesmith and comparing their options and outcomes the way Annie portrayed above. If someone is doing that it's because they misunderstand.
On our side we actually encourage those people to do Codesmith and come back later. On their side if they encounter confused people and are portraying Codemsith and Formation as similar options then they are not helping at all in getting people to the right place at the right time.
u/annie-ama wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
% not reporting salaries -
This is an interesting question and I have some theories. When we go about finalizing the reports, we are able to catch most graduate outcomes using a form that we have grads fill out when they get an offer. As to be expected though, the lives of our g
u/michaelnovatireplied·
If these people didn't respond to the reach out (and it's about 15% of grads in H2 2022), how were their jobs verified to count as placements?
u/Several_Top1693 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I think you've asked your 3 questions, no?
u/michaelnovatireplied·DELETED · archived copy
I guess we'll never know how Codesmith counted people as placements who didn't respond to reach out or surveys... #transparent
u/annie-ama wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Hi there - happy to respond - just not on here all too often. If a graduate has listed employment at an established company on LinkedIn but hasn't responded to our multiple outreach messages, they will be counted as employed but no salary will be listed. Our grads are going on to
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I've done some anonymous surveying and almost all of the randomly chosen engineers and recruiters mistook many Codesmith grads OSP as employment experience.
I'm assuming the auditors would make the same mistakes at least one some occasions.
Even Codesmith's website listed a graduate employed at their OSP as their job, which is a one time mistake, but just showing that this is a problem on multiple fronts.
Do you give them specific instructions to not count OSPs or is it possible OSPs are being counted if someone presented their OSP as a job - against Codesmith's instructions?
u/annie-ama wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
In terms of our H1-2022 results - on the home page of the website - the data shown is the % hired and their average salary as defined by the CIRR standards linked there - [standards](https://www.cirr.org/standards) \- (80%+ got offers at the median salary in the CIRR report). Our
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Codesmith has been asking alumni to write reviews over the past two weeks, resulting in 14 reviews in the past 2 weeks after having 2 reviews in the 3 MONTHS prior.
Can you DM me with more information about who is choosing between Codesmith and Formation? I think you have a super wrong view about what Formation is and does. If you don't want to reach out to clear this up, please refrain from misrepresenting Formation.
**12 out of 14 mention they were career switching and 2 don't say either way. ZERO of these alumni would have been admitted to Formation when they started Codesmith. 100% of them might be admitted to Formation now as alumni and moved on. And our new data (to be published Friday) shows that we helped engineers who placed in 2024 so far increase their first year total comp by** [**$109K**](https://formation.dev/terms#outcomes)
**So if anything, Codesmith + Formation would be great PARTNERS and not COMPETITORS.**
14 reviews (as of 4/25 midnight):
1. "I had no other tech experience aside from self-teaching with FreeCodeCamp."
2. "I attended Codesmith in 2022 fully online after growing disillusioned with the Biotech industry"
3. "Switching careers can indeed be daunting, especially when faced with numerous uncertainties."
4. "Codesmith did a fantastic job of preparing me for my first job as a software engineer"
5. \[not mentioned, has no prior SWE experience on LinkedIn\]
6. "As a former professional in hospitality management and marketing, my decision to enroll in Codesmith proved to be a pivotal turning point in my career journey"
7. "Transitioning from a non-technical background to software engineering was a daunting decision for me."
8. "Many of my classmates were changing careers, didn’t have a background in tech, and most had never seen any code before beginning their application process"
9. \[not mentioned, has no prior SWE experience on LinkedIn\]
10. \[not mentioned, anonymous\]
11. "I initially started looking into a career change after not being happy with my previous career trajectory and consulting with a friend that was in the industry"
12. "Codesmith changed my life. Before Codesmith, I was working a dead end customer service job."
13. \[not mentioned, anonymous\]
14. "Codesmith is far and away the best BootCamp on the market, and the skills that they teach absolutely prepare you to successfully switch careers