I happened to pop into that live stream when he was going over recent Reddit posts in a few subs.
I answered some questions he had very neutrally since this was his stream and not mine.
Don calls out pretty strongly some of the patterns and behaviors I've seen too, specifically how he didn't know OSPs were 4 weeks because every grad he's seen lists months or years on LinkedIn and hardly writes any code when looking at the GitHub repos. He even challenged the Codesmith CEO to come in his podcast and explain that to everyone, since it sounds like he has done his homework and would fairly aggressively push him on this.
I mean I have a couple of spreadsheets over the years and I would also like to see the CEO's response going through the most recent one of these privately, why 48 out of 52 people stated they had on average 11 months of experience on their OSPs, many not disclosing it wasn't Open Source, and comparing that to their Git contributions showing significantly less time spent. I don't see how the CEO could respond with a reasonable answer other than he had no idea and will fix it immediately and make people stop.
u/joeyfosho wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
He won’t because Codesmith relies on deception in order to get their graduates employed.
48/52 people don’t just randomly decide to lie about their experience. The base line of human ethical behavior is better than that.
They were encouraged to lie, or “stretch the truth” or
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I mean I've seen the paperwork and lecture notes and they very adamantly tell people not to lie.
But I agree that they in the same breath tell them that OSLabs will complete background checks for your entire time at Codesmith on the 4 week projects because they say you were in 'OSLabs that entire time'. And they tell you to list your other Codesmith projects in parallel with overlapping timeframes.
Similarly, the representation of prior jobs is borderline. Don't lie, that customer service job was actually a "Support Engineer" role you just have imposter syndrome and are underselling yourself. I work with a number of students and grads unofficially/casually to help them tell their stories because they feel like they can't tell their authentic story at Codesmith.
Finally, I know someone that worked with a career support engineer to squeeze 4 YOE out of their resume when they had 0, they didn't show me that version but they got the job.
**It's not so cut and dry though...**
The people I talk to are hard working and ambitious engineers who really want to do go and really want their shot to prove it and won't mess up their shot.
So I can see how on an individual basis it's not as clear and simple as lie vs don't lie.
u/Competitive-Feed-359 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Also no lie, this video felt like a Don the developer featuring u/michaelnovati collaboration.
I’m assuming Michael recommended Don to talk about the trends they saw with these reviews and CS in general
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
The last time I interacted with Don prior to this live session was December 8th, 2023, and he had no idea I was going to be there, nor did I, I joined when I saw the push notification about a live session reviewing Reddit posts.
At the beginning (edited out) he opened CodingBootcamp, CSCareerQuestions, ExperiencedDevs and scrolled through the first couple of posts looking for ones to talk about.
There was a lot of odd posts prior to the one Don reviewed that were removed by both mods and Reddit-level admins, so I suggested that post as the most reasonable RECENT post. I then found two more posts that were much older way past the fold about self teaching vs bootcamps, and cs degrees that I recommended as well. And he started with the Codesmith one.
u/Competitive-Feed-359 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Appreciate you giving the background information.
I wasn’t accusing you of anything. I only mentioned this because you were prominent in the chat and he did speak as if you guys knew or knew of one another.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
No worries, was just answering very literally like a log-like answer hahaha
But yeah I've known Don for a long time now.
Formation sponsored one of his videos about 2 years ago, and Daniel and Sophie from Formation did a couple of collaborations on mock interviews with him around then.
I used to go to his live streams so that's why he was responsive and knew me in the video and we know other's personalities pretty well.
u/Spunky_Pineapple wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Yeah, I'm going to mute this sub while I decide whether or not to leave it - we may as well rename it to r/themichaelnovatishow because that's what this sub has become. 4/10 (granted, 4/11 once I post this) responses to this post are Michael Novati either commenting directly or r
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Maybe you are wearing Codesmith-colored glasses too? I totally comment on a LOT of posts and I get how that can be like the loudest person in the room. I try to ask a lot of questions and stimulate discussion if you read all my stuff, but I see where this is coming from.
But percentage-wise Codesmith is not dominating the content in this sub, factually speaking.
It makes total sense there would be a ton of discussion in the past two weeks! They shrunk down a ton and laid off / lost a third - possibly up to half - of their staff, like that's a huge thing to discuss for the "best", "s-tier" bootcamp and if there was no discussion I might be more concerned. If anything there hasn't been enough talk about how people feel about it.
u/BrowseCautiously wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Hey Michael, can I DM you?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Yeah sure
u/BrowseCautiously wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Nevermind, my account is too new. I'll do so when I'm able to.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I DM'd you instead haha
u/Competitive-Feed-359 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I think don’s invitation to codesmith to share their side is a good opportunity for people at codesmith to get the “fair shake” they’ve always wanted from this sub.
given that Don was predominantly using one of the CS review on this sub for the video, I think they can address tw
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
The challenge of posting here is they will be directly confronted by me - with my personal hat on, not moderator hat and not Formation hat - in a neutral territory about the three topics I have person opinions on:
1. Constant, loud statements that they product mid-level and senior engineers with zero experience
- I think this is the one we can debate well, because it's a definitions issue, and a debate over what definition Codesmith should use to communicate accurately to the public
2. OSP representation. I would never accuse them of explicitly telling people to lie because there is only evidence of the contrary. But I would not accept any other comments on anything without an explanation as to why they let the majority of people who get jobs exaggerate their experience and if they weren't aware, what they will do about it now that they are.
- I think this one would be scary for Codesmith to comment on because I have the spreadsheet and the data and they can't dance around the issue and if they proactively stopped people from doing it, but still target mid-senior roles, I don't think anyone will get jobs and it will fall apart.
3. Targeting mid level and senior roles. Many people I talk to feel pressure to get high paying jobs and feel discouraged from going to apprenticeships. Whereas I feel that the IDEAL path for the S-TIER bootcamp grads is S-TIER apprenticeships.
- I think this would be a good debate too
u/throwaway_Cloud9880 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Throwaway account, very recently graduated from CS. Not here to argue any of the points made in the original Reddit post - agree with most of what was said there.
My mindset is firmly in ‘do what I can to continue learning and make sure this wasn’t all a waste’ mode - it’d be so
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Plus one to the other response here, apprenticeships were designed for bootcamp grads and career changers and the fact that you don't know that is a failure on Codesmith's side kind of proving my point sadly :(
u/throwaway_Cloud9880 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Fair enough, I don’t know what I don’t know. Is there a resource you’re aware of that has more options than the ones that the other poster already mentioned?
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Yeah a lot of these shut down though sadly: [https://apprenticeships.me/](https://apprenticeships.me/)
My advice is if you identify as one or more historically underrepresented groups in tech, I would join various industry groups as many are advertised there as well.
It's definitely not an all in option to go with because thye are very competitive! Just one you should consider.
u/joeyfosho wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Just a word of caution - I too exclusively looked for apprenticeships for the first 6months of the job search.
They’re more competitive, and much more dependent on what diversity boxes you check. I drove myself mad comparing my portfolio to objectively weaker applicants (in bot
u/michaelnovatireplied·
+1 to this, you need to know about them, but not go all in on them because of the reasons this person mentioned
u/eschoppik wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
u/michaelnovati appreciate the neutral tone here, but to your first point of "it's a definitions issue", I don't think that's entirely accurate. There are countless admissions calls and interviews at Rithm that I've had where candidates will ask "does your program produce senior
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I'm personally very far on the don't tell people they are senior engineers side on this one but I've had many debates with people that "know someone that got a senior job out of Codesmith" who adamantly believe in Codesmith's stance on this.
I would argue with them why a program branding itself as a top tier program preparing people for jobs in the TECHNOLOGY industry should be using the canonical definitions of the top tier TECHNOLOGY industry companies.
Codesmith does this "how to get hired in 2024" talk that I saw most of yesterday and they aren't just saying this anymore, but the CEO spent almost 2 hours straight in the talk convincing people that using - what in my opinion - are incorrect arguments:
1. Argument: the 2024 market has changed and companies that didn't previous prioritize technology - like banks - are hiring laid off FAANG engineers to build the same level of product there. The CEO cited McKinsey consultants telling these companies to invest in technology as a response to FAANG companies entering their markets as the reason why this change is happening.
- This is completely false to me. These companies have always prioritized technology but they are in industries with lower margins and don't pay their engineers $500K a year like Meta does. So Meta, with its giant margins, gets the top engineers and builds top tier product. Nothing has changed here. American Express has had great product for 10 years+ now and continuously invested in technology. NYTimes has had a long term effort to move stuff online and invest in games and other areas, and hiring good engineers to do it - and this is nothing new in 2024. United Airlines has been investing in technology for years for rebooking and customer service, because it's CHEAPER and a better experience than having humans do it. But they aren't getting the best of the best engineers in the industry to do it because they have razor thin margins.
- The argument comes across that it was made up (the CEO has not sourced any data on this) to validate Codesmiths outcomes. i.e. if you ASSUME Codesmith makes only mid level and senior engineers then whatever jobs they get IS the market for mid-level and senior. And this is just completely flipped around because those people are not mid-level and senior engineers so they are getting jobs at non-big-tech companies.
2. Argument: an interview is about communicating your capabilities in a traditional setting designed for ivy league graduates (the CEO references "Princeton" in the talk). Since Codesmith grads are mid-level and senior they have to practice how to communicate their potential "capabilities", not their experience, in interviews so that they are perceived on an equal level to a Princeton grad.
- I agree with part of this, that there are biases in the interview process and you have to understand and navigate those. I agree with putting extra effort to show you care in the process - which is one of the main pieces of advice given.
- I adamantly disagree with the implication that since Codesmith grads ARE mid-level and senior "capabilities"-wise they should do what they need to to "communicate" that (what does that mean? because grads are taking that to mean exaggerating their resumes) to recruiters. It helps people justify the exaggerations.
-----
Anyways, I wrote this out in 5 minutes and I would be happy to debate these more.
u/MKing150 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I have to ask. Do you not feel the same level complement to give traditional universities this extreme level of scrutiny? Lord knows it's highly warrented.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I mean my university's web programming course was so bad that I wrote a letter to the dean explaining how I had already learned this on my own and got a job at Facebook lined up and what was taught in the course was embarrassingly wrong and outdated.
It took them a few years to finally update it and kept me in the loop.
The university cost $20K for 4 years and I did dozens of courses that actually were really good, and some not.
Finally, my program's goal was to get you into a top PhD program, and I did that path but withdrew for Facebook and they were disappointed in me.
So it's a completely different thing.
My department chair though was doing sell presentation that sounded an awful lot like Codemsith about how for 80 years they have produced engineers capable of solving the world's hardest problems and are leaders because of their ability to bridge communication gaps and execute in solutions
Someone calling that happens in 12 weeks though is very different than a program that was literally 10 times longer.
u/MKing150 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
12 weeks + whatever amount of time a student spent learning the material before attending, since Codesmith doesn't accept complete beginners. On top of that, the 12 weeks entails 12-hour sessions, 6 days a week. Where as at a University, maybe your data structures class is twice
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
My university was 25 hours a week classroom time and 40 of homework/projects but 3 semesters a year and summers were off to do research or internships.
I was commuting from home an hour a day each way, no remote classes, no recordings, and it was absolutely draining. I woke up at 5am and went to bed at 10pm, I worked all weekend, people thought I had problems haha and I didn't have any friends or do any hobbies. I read school stuff on the elliptical everyday for an hour, and I did scorekeeping for hockey on Sunday nights where I did homework in the box while doing it.
But other programs are way less intense and way more expensive so this is an exception case.... in the same way that Codemsith is a special program for special people and not something that anyone can just sign up for and make $100K
u/MKing150 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
>Codemsith is a special program for special people and not something that anyone can just sign up for and make $100K
Hence its filtering process. Also, you can say the exact same thing about universities. They're not for everyone, and not everyone gets accepted to one.
For som
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
That's exactly why I used to, until the recent changes (which is paused until they settle), recommend specific people go there 1-1 if they are suited to it.
Just because I'm critical about a few things, doesn't mean it's not good for the right people.
But the market sucks for bootcamp grads right now. The most perfect person for Codesmith went there after college didn't work for them and is a totally fantastic person, has really struggled to get a job, even with exaggerating experience.