Hey, I'm the co-founder of Formation!
So there are a range of competitors you can look at. Honestly the session structure where dynamically create your ideal schedule every week is completely unique so if that is the most appealing thing, I haven't seen another program offer that, but if you want to have structured practice here are some other options:
Interview Kickstart: I think it's similarly priced but a few thousand dollars less. More structured program, not unlimited support
Outco.io: shorter, peer mock interviews, cheaper, has unlimited support
Pathrise: focuses almost exclusively on the job hunt side and probably isn't a good option for you, it's also generally much more expensive.
Coachable: a very small program run by a few people but focuses on DS&A, more individual practice and less community vibe. Also similarly priced or more than Formation.
Interviewing.io: pay as yo…
For the record, I strongly believe I present a balanced view of Codemsith in my comments, which is much more balanced than this comment above, and I get torn apart and attacked by people calling me a liar, a sketchy person, a "dark disturbed individual". For every comment saying Codesmith tells you not to lie I get one DM telling me almost word for word this ^^^ comment above.
I don't think it's as deceptive and fraudulent as this commenter claims and I try to present both sides of the "fake work experience" dilemma in my commenting, but I really wish people would get off my back when I try to present things in the middle of the road because most of the time, that's where things are!
So in reality, the problems you solve are not as hard as Leetcode problems, but they aren't as easy as just practicing every day React use effect hooks over and over.
You need to be good at both to apply both sides of thinking to real work situations.
Real world example: we had some performance issues on the backend. It took a deep understanding of hash tables, sorting, references vs values, and more classic concepts APPLIED TO THE REAL WORLD to solve.
Someone who memorized Leetcode will struggle with applying those things to a very practical problem. Part of the practical is looking through thousands of lines of code and figuring out where to deep dive into the DSA. On the other hand if all you do is write "easy" code that keeps the ship running, you don't have the fundamentals to understand how to improve the performance of code.
As many will tell you in this subreddit, you can ge…
This summary is fairly consistent with what I hear from most people as well, that overall Codesmith is a great program, very consistent, and the community is fantastic.
The big change is the job market since 2020 is the job market.
In the time period of 2021 and into 2022, people were getting like 150K jobs (which you can see in CIRR) at Amazon and Capital One by using exaggerated resumes (or have recruiters proactively reach out on LinkedIn without even expanding to see "Developed under OS Labs") to pass recruiter screens + practicing Leetcode on their own and with each other.
These people then were all over this subreddit in mid to late 2022 created an impression that Codesmith was a magical place with a magical formula and getting in will be the ticket to a $150K job. No one was explaining HOW it happened, just "Codesmith is the best", "Codesmith changes your life", and a bunch of…
It always depends on you and your goals, but some things to consider:
1. Working on a very large open source project, like Wikimedia, Wordpress, React, etc... It's very intimidating but you get exposure to real SWE development processes.
2. Working on a person project that is startup-like. Meaning a project that has real users (even if a small number) and is a real product that might even make some money, and you work on it for months/permanently
3. Working on fundamentals. The bootcamp approach is to learning on-demand practical skills to get a leg up, but that works best in a hot job market. In the current market companies aren't just looking for a React engineer as soon as possible, they are looking for strong engineers with strong fundamental problem solving skills.
4. Look for apprenticeships and try to get a foot in the door that way. Always good to learning in a more realistic se…
The vast vast vast majority of people to not get a job right out of a bootcamp, even the best bootcamps.
It might happen to you but don't make plans based on finding a shortcut that "guarantees" a job on placement. It's not possible.
Yeah this is the comment, but I agree with you that a direct explanation is the only source of truth here
[https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/12r57se/comment/jh6ugsn/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/12r57se/comment/jh6ugsn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
A mod mentioned in a thread that there was coordinated reporting of the post and my comments as well and maybe they were calling out that behavior?
Another idea is just that it hit 100 up votes?
Leif is typically a contract between you and the bootcamp. Leif is the payment processor in most cases, like Visa or MasterCard.
So I would recommend reaching out to the program and trying to negotiate what you think is fair.
If you did some amount of training you should pay something, but if the program didn't meet your expectations then communicate that and see what they say.
Google's Apprenticeships are a little different from other top tier company ones. It pays more like $60K instead of $100K. It is not a likely path to a full time job. It is government approved and under the governance of formal apprenticeships.
It's also relatively new but it's not necessarily the same DSA bar that entry level Google has.
A number of farmers are millionaires and run complex businesses.
From the USDA: "In 2021, the average U.S. farm household had $2,100,879 in wealth. Households operating commercial farms had $3.0 million in total wealth at the median, substantially more than the households of residence or intermediate farms."
https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-household-well-being/income-and-wealth-in-context/
Sources please, I don't appreciate defamation by coming out of hibernation, selectively commenting on all my comments and no one elses and attacking me with baseless claims. I'm well known I'm this sub because I'm open about my background and use my real identity, but I also don't respond to people trolling me.
Source: The research is a collaboration between the Core Infrastructure Initiative at the Linux Foundation – now part of The Open Source Security Foundation (OpenSSF) formed in August – and the Laboratory for Innovation Science at Harvard University. via [https://www.theregister.com/2020/12/08/foss\_developer\_survey\_mostly\_male/](https://www.theregister.com/2020/12/08/foss_developer_survey_mostly_male/)
"A new survey of FOSS (Free and Open Source Software) contributors, conducted by the Linux Foundation and academic researchers, reported that 91 per cent of respondents are ma…
>but it's also something I heard from people at NXVISM and in a lot of cult documentaries
To be very clear I'm not implying directly or indirectly that anything illegal is happening at Codesmith, and I feel like it was pretty clear I wasn't saying that in any way.
I was simply stating that it's dangerous to vulnerable people to say 'do X, it changed my life and it can change your life too' and as an example of why it's dangerous, looking at cults and MLMs that have similar messaging where people join for the wrong reasons and feel social pressure to not leave.
Thanks or adding more detail, yeah the job hunt is extremely demotivating for many people right now. I would encourage you to lean on your FM team, and let them know what's working and what isn't. You mention a number of things we don't have any kind of coaching on, but we do try to help if you surface specific things. For example, if you have a crypto interview coming up we can try to find a crypto mentor do a mock with etc...
We constantly update the website so if you see anything there currently you feel is not clearly articulating what you are experiencing please flag it! It could be poor wording, or it could be that you aren't getting certain things assigned that we do support.
Our mentors are mostly senior, staff, principal engineers yeah, a small number are at FAANG or ex-FAANG in India, like currently I think it's 3 or 4 (?) out of over 150. But in general we want mentors from…
Excellent point! For me, the most important thing is for you to understand the range of options, set a goal, and then work towards that goal - adjusting if needed, and for many people that's not FAANG.
So pre-layoffs, FAANG usually meant literally the 5 companies, or adjacent companies.
These are some of my criteria for what adjacent means:
1. Similar compensation, including stock based compensation as a meaningful portion of an offer
2. Engineering/product driven culture. Meaning that engineers and product managers, designers, etc... have an equal seat at the table as business people.
3. A popular, widely used product. No specific numbers here but a product or service that has significant SCALE and BREADTH where you will learn how to scale something infinitely, and how to build for a variety of people.
4. Reputation for high talent bar. This is fuzzy but generally you'll see "high…
There are a number of people who follow me and downvote almost everything I say with the word Codesmith in it. I've done some tests where I comment on something that has ZERO engagement, check a few days later, still ZERO engagement other than my comment, except me with -2 lol
But thanks for the kind words!
Thanks for sharing a balanced view. +1 that the heart is in the right place, and that's important to note.
I comment this often but people don't read everything and adding for consistency, but in the industry, many "open source" projects are PAID. Almost all of the large open source projects are maintained by people who work at top companies as their day job and the company is paying them to support the project.
So saying something is "open source" does not mean it was unpaid work and saying you were a "Software Engineer at X (Open Source)" doesn't properly represent that it was a 4 week project with code reviewed from previous students.
This is my opinion, I understand and respect people who feel differently but just adding because I think it's an important perspective that people don't often hear (except from me lol)
Another note but "Codesmith has literally changed the lives" is s…
So the letters don't say they "worked" there. They are carefully written to not say that but also broad enough for a generic background check company to probably check off a box that this "experience* had a validated reference.
I don't want to make judgements on the legalities because I'm not a lawyer. Something doesn't have to be a registered company to exist as an entity and what OSLabs was doing before this is ambiguous. Some things that I would ask a lawyer about are if Philip Troutman is signing letters as a board member when he is not and doing so knowingly and to perpetuate a fraud, could that be a problem for him as an individual. If he is a board member who just isn't listed in their public paperwork it could be a conflict of interest if he is using the charity to help Codesmith, which from the IRS website (again, not legal advice) might be a tax issue for the charity (i.e. it'…
+1 to both you and the parent comment.
I don't think Codesmith wants to be compared to other bootcamps and wants to be somewhat of an elite program to take experienced engineers to mid level.
But they admit a long tail of people who have no experience and expect the same outcomes. I've stated over and over that they should publish outcomes by initial experience level so people have a better idea of what their path might be like.
I have commented on this extensively but the level and title of your first job are irrelevant compared to the company, team, and product. Your career trajectory will be far faster and better being a $100K apprentice at Airbnb over a $130K "mid level" engineer at a 30 person agency where you are the only front end engineer assigned to a project.
I don't know why there is such an emphasis on them, if they have truly gone all in on this since the beginning. I don't think their leadership has a lot of top tier experience and maybe they are trying to appeal to the masses and people looking for an average job over a top tier job, but the marketing and tone of their outcomes commentary says otherwise.
I think Codesmith is "a good one". I talk about them disproportionately on Reddit and have been accused by a leader of being a dark depraved individual whose sole purpose is to take them down. All I'm doing is talking fairly about the pros and cons and talking reasonably about a program... and I talk about them so much because this subreddit talks about them so much.... people see $130K salaries and assume they are the best and see people on here say "Codesmith, mic drop" when discussing the best bootcamps.
To me, Codesmith is a very good program that is focused on consistency and outcomes over profit and people shouldn't over react.
Having a healthy discussion about what can improve doesn't mean they can't be good too.
Yeah I don't agree with like 50% of what Dancing says, but I think they have good intentions from interacting with them over like a year and we can keep it civilized :D
I'm in the CIRR is super flawed, why doesn't Codesmith improve it or replace it, but that is' not a fraud camp.
I'm concerned about the OSLabs stuff though. They made an official charity out of OSLabs in the middle of last year that pays mentors to mentor students. If they are collecting money from the charity to pay mentors to mentor Codesmith students only, that may be criminal, or may be a tax law violation. There's no way they aren't smart enough to figure out a way to make this work legally, but it's playing with fire.
Like if I, representing Formation, approached OSLabs about a collaboration to provide mentors and to work on projects or something, would they act in the best interest of OSLabs or would we get rejected because Codesmith leadership hates me? Eric Kirsten was advertising a job posting at OSLabs for the Executive Director saying to ping him if interesting.... I worked…
Hi 👋!
What feels like years ago but was about a year ago I spent two hours on a Sunday cmd+clicking and collecting info on the LinkedIn vs GitHub OSP representation that really peaked my interest in Codesmith outcomes. I did similar math to you and was also confused in who was included in the "graduates included" number, versus the percentages underneath. More recently I looked at the formulas in the CIRR worksheets (because they weren't spelled out in the spec like they should be) and it added some clarity but I still have questions about how they extend how fellows are included (they admit to not following CIRR and delaying those people's clocks by the length of their contract) but I don't know if that impacts "number of graduates" or graduation rates, or what not. And would love the absolute numbers. But I was a kid who memorized cereal box nutritional labels and the exact details…
CIRR outcomes should be relied on as as legit yeah. The ways that games can be played are very sneaky. I've written a lot about this and have to timebox my time on Reddit so I'll try to quickly summarize and you can ask me more:
1. The spec was written by bootcamp outcomes managers and not lawyers. So it has some flaws. For example, there's no explanation of how salaries are recorded and what evidence is needed. They allow reporting a person who ghosts to be reported as employed if their LinkedIn says they have a job (no matter what the job is) and they exclude them from the salaries only.
2. The only absolute number on a CIRR report is the number of graduates included in the report. The rest are all percentages off of percentages off of percentages. The salaries are only for people who got jobs AND reported income. 90% being placed in 180 days means 90% OF GRADUATES were placed, but on…
Relatively speaking yeah :( lol. I have a traditional engineering background and there were good classes and bad classes in college. There were good TAs and bad TAs. Overall though I would say my college program was really good. But that doesn't mean it was flawless.
Codesmith is a good bootcamp. They control their growth, they care about having good outcomes, they keep the bar high, I genuinely think Will and others love teaching.
I'm not here to judge if it's worth $20K, of if it's good for you, me, your friend, etc.... and I have been relentlessly attacked for critizing Codesmith on:
1. All in support of CIRR without trying to improve the standard and make it better
2. Over-representing OSPs and doing fake background checks/references for people
3. Not being inclusive because only very driven people with $21K, and 11 hours a day + 7 hours on Sunday can attend.
4. Making people thi…
Thanks for sharing your views and examples. I said this in my '2023 bootcamp predictions' post that we're going to see a lot of people complaining this year, while a lot of bootcamps remain largely the same as they did in <= 2021 and I stand by that. Codesmith was over-credited in the past in a good market for on-paper outcomes and will be overly criticized now, as will many good programs. We're seeing similar sentiment about Hack Reactor and Tech Elevator recently.
I also completely agree on OSP's being misrepresented and I think Codesmith is going in the wrong direction by doubling down on them.
Can you elaborate on sending lawyers after people in private? That seems concerning. I know that protecting intellectual property is super important and I could see that for leaking important content, or confidential business information. But no one should threaten you for stating your opinio…
Yeah I have many comments about the OSPs but that is exactly why they aren't anything close to mid-level and senior projects. If you work for 4 weeks with a senior eng who specializes in React, you would get a lot better fast... and this is why an entry level apprenticeship at AirBnb paying $100K is better long term than a Senior Capital One job as your first job out of CS, imo.... for the average grad. For some people it's not but pushing people to mid and senior roles is missing a fantastic opportunity for grads.
I think they are going to have trouble with OSLabs as a boost to get mod and senior roles. If it's wildly successful, students will get to learn from real senior engineers and be perfectly setup to get referred to entry levels roles from them, but not mid and senior. There isn't an industry engineer I've asked who approved of CS grads marketing themselves for top tier mid se…
Frontend and React is a week, I meant like 2 lectures on React, but there are assignments and practice as well. But Codesmith is a true full stack curriculum and there isn't much React. People get half the program for personal projects and OSPs so people that want to do more React do much more then
Yeah this is one of the accounts on my special list that I monitor that is affiliated. Some people have shared internal quotes of certain execs/leaders/advisors and you notice the exact same language and phrases used on Reddit, you start to piece together who is who, or who was influenced by who.
This account surfaced out of hibernation from 9 months ago the second Codesmith was discussed negatively.
I'm here every day commenting and being helpful and you can easily tell from people's comment history sometimes why they are here.
From what I've heard it's solely DEFENSIVE not offensive. Which is why you see a ton of random people come out of the woodwork with almost no history on Codesmith-specific posts. I carefully check the comment history when I get attacked and numerous accounts only post and comment about Codesmith and then attack me about Formation. Kind of odd for an account with almost no history to know me so well to make detailed attacks and simultaneously only comment and post about Codesmith.
The other problem is so many people are hired back as fellows, career support, instructors, that a lot of people who talk about being an "alumni" don't disclose that they were/are also an EMPLOYEE! Codesmith has 80 to 100 (depending on when you count, changes frequently) former students currently on staff in some capacity on their Website.
I can give my 2 cents on this, which is as usually fairly middle of the road.
1. I'm well aware of the coordinated Reddit interference initiated by leadership, specifically on me and my comments. I never talk about this because it's childish and I want to focus on what's important.
2. Running a program is hard. Not everyone will have the best experience, scheduling is a nightmare (we have so much software to do scheduling and there are always last minute surprises because humans are human). So while it's easy to pile on and criticize how it's run, I do think it's overall run well relative to other programs. Codesmith should obviously minimize session issues and I would be concerned if scheduling problems happen the majority of the time.
3. I believe their CIRR numbers are legit. There are a lot of things people can do to maximize their outcomes and spoke at length and I think Codesmith…
Thanks for sharing a reasonable opinion about your personal experience without overly generalizing like so many do. Can you elaborate more on the career services and resume stuff (specifically with the treatment of OSPs on resumes)? That's an area I see a lot of "do this because it works" and I'm curious if you agree or if you have seen different.
I have worked with/work with/have talked to a bunch of Codesmith alum at all stages, from struggling to crushing it, and have seen what you said reflected in a number of people who are "crushing it" almost word for word. But for a lot of people in the program that learn really fast but aren't as on top of things as the top 10%, the curriculum and firehose-style pace is really effective.
One off cases don't prove anything. I've seen people who wanted it so bad and worked so hard they got physically and mentally ill and just couldn't do it. I've also seen people get jobs at Google because they just put in the work. Neither proves anything, but they all happened!
Sorry, yeah I think wires got crossed there, but that makes a lot more sense. I think you personally are an amazing engineer btw and appreciate all you do! I apologize for the empathy comment, that was also meant more broadly to posts that come across as "I made $200K you can too if you try" and I apologize for messing up how I phrased it.
I think it might be more helpful to get a job in tech than SWE job. Like a customer support type role that involves using complex tools etc... I also think it helps as a one piece of the puzzle to become a SWE but with additional training and prep.
\[EDIT: commenter explained the original comment was not about bootcamp grads but master's grads, and I re-worded/removed things that are also now out of context, and sorry for misunderstanding the context!\]
Most people from bootcamps aren't making $200K in their first year. I've seen a Harvard Math grad have a path like this for example, or a UT Austin Civil Eng grad, but these people have some kind of natural abilities and work ethic that made it happen.
A very small number of people will, and those people will probably be making $1M a year in 5 to 10 years, like maybe yourself /u/Evening_Message5556 (which I would say based on my interactions with you :) )
That said at Bloomberg and Amazon, you can make $200K TC (e.g. $160K base + $40K+ bonus) by crushing mostly DS&A interviews and passing behavioral interviews. One of the key pieces is the behavioral interview and you coming acr…
My hunch is the outcomes are stronger than reported because people who go missing don't tell cohort mates anything, but might report to Codesmith and they can only be higher than anecdotal reports. But how much higher? I still think 50% is reasonable and hopefully around 60%.
I'm going to make a call now and you can tell me if I was right in 6 months. I think we're going to see a fairly high placement rate on the next CIRR report, like 60% maybe even 70%, but we're going to see an increase in "% of people not looking for employment" and in "% of people not reporting salaries". One of the CIRR loopholes is that employment can be verified via LinkedIn if a person goes missing, but their salary will be excluded. So if someone gets a job in a completely unrelated field, but is "employed" on their LinkedIn, then they count a placement in the percentage placed. I think they will work a lot h…
Codesmith's outcomes are absolutely legit and it's one of the best programs out there.
There are some caveats but their outcomes are very strong on paper, 100%. Notes about outcomes "under the hood":
1. The distribution of outcomes is more spiky than most programs, meaning there is a spike at < $120K and > $140K. People who make more, TEND to have experience already or success in another professional field prior. People who make under $120K TEND to be people who have zero experience and almost no technical experience. Now making $90K for someone in this demographic is an amazing outcome, but you shouldn't come in expecting $150K if you did community college as an x-ray technician, did that for a year, then did CSX for 3 months and think you'll make $130K after Codesmith..... you might, but it's less likely.
2. The outcomes are the median salaries of people who graduate, get a job in 18…
/u/Tbh_idk______ I can give you my setup! Depends a lot on yourself and your preferences and budget.
GEAR:
\- MacBook laptop (docked, screen closed, BookArc Twelve South)
\- usb hub with the following plugged in:
\-- Apple laptop-sized external keyboard w/touch id
\-- Kensington blade ball mouse
\-- Amplifier (for my headphones :D)
\-- External webcam (that's a bit higher quality than built in, for calls)
\- LG Ultrafine 5K 27 inch (this was discontinued, but the Apple Studio 5K 27 inch is similar), @ 3200x1800 effective resolution <-- "More Space" option in MacOS
SETUP:
1. I have my monitor relatively close to keyboard and myself, like 3 inches behind keyboard and a foot away from me.
2. I have my screen split vertically, left side is about 40% of screen and is VSCode (I Cmd+\~ to go between backend/frontend/etc....)
3. Right hand 60% is Chrome. Dev tools often open along the…
Harder is generally better outcomes. It's no coincidence that the hardest programs to get into (bar-wise) happen to have the best outcomes. It doesn't mean that getting in is your ticket to a six figure job, and you want to get in at all costs, but rather that people who get in tend to have the traits of people who get six figured jobs.
A number of Codesmith people I know had successful other careers in professional jobs (e.g. mechanical engineer, lawyer, doctor, accountant) for example.
If you got into all of the top schools, I don't think your long term career trajectory will be drastically impacted by the choice of bootcamp, and it's more of a choice of personal preference for learning style, pace, topics, etc...