Build A Dev upcoming cohort - $1 for verification · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Thanks for the update!
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u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
How would you answer that given the above restrictions? I would love to answer it but we just can't in a way that is actually clear and transparent?
100% of people adjust their schedules and time commitments throughout Formation (at least once, the majority adjust every week) so what would you do if someone goes on parental leave? What about if they go on a lot of vacation? How do you compare the time it takes for someone training 50 hours a week vs someone training 10 hours a week and the majority of people change their workload several times throughout? If someone is stressed and needs a mental health break, or needs a physical health break, that will impact their training time and unlike a bootcamp we don't kick you out or "defer" you for these cases. As I said, the majority of people fall under these kinds of situations so it's not an edge case that will get averaged out in placeme…
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Hi, Formation isn't a bootcamp, doesn't have "graduation", doesn't have cohorts or start dates, doesn't have a expected amount of time you will spend in it, doesn't have a curriculum or topic list you will study. In addition, most people train in Formation part time and have jobs, and ramp up or down their commitments to suit their own needs rather than along our fixed timeframe. Finally, people come from all kinds of backgrounds and start at different places, so it's very hard to look at data and guess what your time and outcome might be like.
So in conclusion, CIRR makes no sense for us at all and we can't even answer basic questions like "how many people graduated" because the question itself doesn't make sense for us.
We have published average outcomes and a list of companies placed at in 2022: [https://formation.dev/blog/2022-formation-fellow-placements/](https://formation.dev/blo…
BuildaDev April Cohort · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Thanks for the update and sharing that. I wish you good luck on your journey.
Bootcamp graduates, what companies are you working for and what is the salary range? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · DELETED · archived copy ★ FEATURED
I randomly stumbled on this because of a random comment talking about something I was looking for.
Four days ago you yelled at someone for talking about H1 2022 results because you said they didn't apply anymore but 16 days ago you were touting cherry picked results from H1 2022 to promote Codesmith.
Source https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/14341x7/comment/jna31yd/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
I'm flagging just so others can see this in the future when evaluating sources.
Best courses for Data structures and Algorithms · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Formation.dev, it's not ideal for bootcamp grads without work experience (case by case) but something to consider down the road
Best courses for Data structures and Algorithms · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Hi, I have a lot of experience in this area - I'm the co-founder of a program for experienced engineers that brings up their DS&A, SD, behavioral and other gaps to the top tier bar. While people pay a lot of money for our training because they get constant support until they get a job from senior engineers, non technical support , career coaches, mock interviews, etc... almost all of the underlying concepts are available for free/low cost - the problem is actually that there's TOO MUCH information out there and people move through it inefficiently and waste time/energy.
So you'll find thousands of hours of content out there, but two that come up more often then others are useful right now are: 1. NeetCode's video explanations (many are free) and 2. a lot of people like Structy's explanations as well. I would check out both of these as a good starting point!
Which has better ROI...codesmith or 2 year college diploma? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I totally understand how my view here could come across elitist or disconnected for not just the average but most people.
The reason is that inequality is a huge problem in the US. People who are starting off lower almost never make socioeconomic jumps to catch up to the people who start off higher. And the above argument is a reason why. A kid born to millionaires expects to make a "measley" $200K as a fallback in case they fail out in life. Whereas someone born in the lowest income bracket might dream of having a stable job and making 60K.
To address inequality I'm pushing people to all have the same expectations and trying to create paths for people to make the jump even if they don't see a path themselves or have the confidence they can do it.
Which has better ROI...codesmith or 2 year college diploma? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
From my experience, people are very happy and proud to drop their names in the spreadsheet and cheer on their peers outcomes... and a lot more reluctant to talk about how hard it is on the job and the failures that come with it.
I think this is the reason you see so many Hackbright and Hack Reactor and App Academy alumni at FAANG companies 5 years down the road, and while you see a good number of Codesmith alumni at FAANG too there is a greater number 3 jobs in as "senior engineers" at unknown non-tech companies pushing $200K. A mid-level Google offer though is $300K and I reiterate that an appropriate first job -> FAANG mid-level is a much better outcome down the road than what most Codesmith students do.
Which has better ROI...codesmith or 2 year college diploma? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Yeah exactly, students are pushed towards "mid level" roles at less strong companies that pay $120Kish. It's one of my criticisms of the career services product there, that most bootcamp grads are better off at top companies as entry level engineers and they discourage people from looking for those jobs.
The "Codesmith way" of doing things is particularly impactful at less good companies that don't realize the resumes are exaggerated or look into was OSLabs is, and I think that's a factor in why they encourage this. These strategies don't work at top companies and Codesmith grads just look like any other bootcamp grads to them.
Which has better ROI...codesmith or 2 year college diploma? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
For people attending Codesmith it certainly is. They actively discourage people from taking offers under $120Kish and tell them that they are hurting their careers by taking these jobs. It's different form of pressure from other programs.
Do top bootcamps teach DSA? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I lot of bootcamps incorporate DS&A practice into the programs, AA, Hack Reactor, Codesmith, for starters.
That said, I don't know of any bootcamp that actually teaches fundamental problem solving with DS&As. Codesmith spends under a week on all the theoretical concepts for DS&As and even though they assign you a problem a DAY they don't actually teach you how to solve them. I've worked with numerous Codesmith grads that can flail through a LC Medium problem but wouldn't pass a Facebook-level interview because the thought process demonstrates a lack of deeper understanding.
I'm the co-founder of Formation, which is a program for experienced engineers that focuses on DS&A, SD, and behaviorals, and it typically takes most people - including graduates of HR and CS - 2 to 5 more months of pure DS&A focus to get to the top tier bar.
So it takes the entire length of time you spent in a boot…
Which has better ROI...codesmith or 2 year college diploma? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
1. +1 the Lifetime career services at bootcamps aren't helpful because they are meant to help bootcamp grads get jobs. When you have a job and want to get a better job, they don't support you as much as you could. I've heard people say "\[my bootcamp's career services\] helped me negotiate my next offer and it's a gift that keeps on giving".... but what they don't realize is that if they sought help from others that specialize in experienced engineers (disclosure: co-founder of Formation which helps and hence I'm very biased) that you might have made wayyyyy more. The average person placed after Formation increased their first year TC by $96K (see website for how we calculate). So if you are super thankful for "free" help to you increase you compensation by $50K, you could have paid $10K to make almost $100K more... Anyways, this isn't an ad for Formation - Formation has lots of concerns…
Which has better ROI...codesmith or 2 year college diploma? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
The 21.4% of people who don't get jobs + 5% that don't graduate + 16.4% making under $100K means almost a 43% chance of not getting a job or getting a job under $100K... and that's for ALL BACKGROUNDS, including the people with CS degrees and past experience.
BuildaDev April Cohort · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
do you have any updates on your experience?
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I agree with this in general. The CIRR standards have no requirements for verification of salaries, other than asking a person. They also allow LinkedIn verification to be used to confirm employment but without any more qualifications on how to do that. So if someone works as a self employed Uber driver on their LinkedIn and ghosts bootcamp staff, that could as a "confirmed placement" but with "salary not reported".
The one thing they do have more qualification on is the start dates, and the process for verifying with a letter. Even there, they have subjectivity if someone has multiple jobs within the 6 months, to choose a job or the other.
Anyways, all in the spec, don't have time to write all this out yet again, but the TLDR: it was written by bootcamp marketing and outcomes people and not lawyers.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I have it locally and it looks the same to me. It only has about 30 people in it so it makes sense. ONE placement is over 3% of the class instead of 0.3%
But I guess that means swings this large means there were numerous errors in the full time one :S
If this is a submission error of the report itself or the auditors audited the wrong version and signed off that's even worse because it destroys trust in the CIRR ecosystem because it means either Codesmith got away with publishing false data - and might be legally liable - or the auditors signed off on the wrong report and obviously can't be trusted.
So it's actually better if this was human error in the spreadsheets that the auditors fixed.
BuildaDev April Cohort · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
That's my biggest practical concern with free programs and why free programs that let anyone join have never succeeded.
u/michaelnovati posted · · edited ★ FEATURED
Codesmith's newly posted AUDITED version of their CIRR H1 2022 show discrepancies from their initial report published a month or two ago (... and a reminder about blindly trusting CIRR)
UPDATE (June 25th 2023): The Auditors re-released a correction and they republished the original report as the final audited report. This is all very confusing how such mistakes and errors could pass audit to begin with, but I believe the "original report" is the final numbers and the "audited reports" contained errors that were originally signed off on.
One of the misconceptions about CIRR is that results are audited before being posted. This is not correct and rather they are audited once a year and then updated after the fact.
Codesmith recently added their **audited** report to CIRR and it has worse outcomes:
[Link to original report](https://static.spacecrafted.com/b13328575ece40d8853472b9e0cf204…
BuildaDev April Cohort · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
do you have any updates on your experience?
Build A Dev upcoming cohort - $1 for verification · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Do you have any updates on your experience now that you are two months in?
Build A Dev upcoming cohort - $1 for verification · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · DELETED · archived copy
Do you have any updates on your experience now that you are two months in?
Bootcamp as a CS grad · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Thanks for sharing yeah I have heard similar complaints about Interview Kickstart as well.
I think it's worth it for people to research and consider but they should be very concerned about some of those factors.
Bootcamp as a CS grad · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Can you elaborate more? I don't recommend any specific programs but rather recommend someone do research, but if you have strong examples of why they are not a legitimate program I would remove it yeah.
Creating a Startup Coding Bootcamp · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Hi, my partner and I both have many years as staff, principal SWE's at FB and Nextdoor. My partner left Nextdoor and ran a free coding bootcamp for a year or two. After seeing how good intentioned people were trying over and over to "fix bootcamps" but had numerous quality issues, she wanted to do it better. She did, and the people she worked with have great careers now, but it didn't scale beyond a number of people she could train herself (\~10 at a time). What she realized though is that the brokenness of bootcamps was resulting in tens of thousands of new engineers who were employable but lacking fundamental skills needed to grow in their next career step. So we joined forced to start Formation - which is a personalized and dynamic coaching and training program for experienced engineers.
If you want my advice - be ready to run a company and not to create a coding bootcamp. Almost all…
Which bootcamp is paying the most for ads? (youtube, instagram, reddit) · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah correct on comma, I have terrible spelling and grammar lol
There are! They tend to be extremely small though. Bradfield School of Computer Science is two engineers who run it twice a year. Perpetual Education is another that is just two people.
Advertising is the core way to reach an audience in the USA market and it's not a bad thing.
The best and most prestigious Universities are so because of brand and the marketing that supports it.
Which bootcamp is paying the most for ads? (youtube, instagram, reddit) · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
We run ads for our program (not a bootcamp but have experience with ads)
Honestly, with good quality ad targeting it's impossible to know. It might FEEL like a company is spending millions of dollars and you see the ads every place you go.... inescapable... but the company might be spending very little and just optimized how to target you or their audience very well and not waste money on irrelevant people.
So it's possible that the more you see a company, the better their marketers are. It's also possible they are spending a ton of money. You'll never really know though and advertising is the main way companies find customers so almost everyone does it.
The ones that don't spend money, hire people to create public content and "free" workshops. They end up spending MORE MONEY on those people's salaries and running those than they would on advertising.
Codesmith is a good example, a…
Google Software Engineering Apprenticeship · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Hi! Dropbox Ignite, Asana Up, LinkedIn Reach, Twitter, Airbnb, Twilio
Leetcode, take home, or else? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I see people interviewing at all stages of companies at Formation (disclosure: co-founder) and they haven't changed much recently. Larger companies that have complex proprietary technology continue to do generic, stack-agnostic, problem solving (i.e. "Leetcode") problems. Smaller and less tech-focused companies that expect you to show up on day 1 and contribute in a more generic stack continue to have more practical questions, realistic work.
Anyone know of good Bootcamps that offer an ISA without checking credit? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Very unlikely, correct. Look at deferred loan options like Meritize that consider other factors if you have a bad credit score.
SF Bay Area Bootcamps · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
Rent is crazy expensive despite super high vacancies. Rithm School was in person with a great office in the heart of SF and might be able to comment on this, but it's prohibitively expensive.
That said, my partner used to run a free bootcamp in the heart of SF that we paid rent for from our savings and some people got remote jobs anyways, but some people just met random engineers in person, which led to networking + jobs and it did help, but you can always just move to SF while doing a remote bootcamp and get a similar benefit.
Codesmith opened a NY in person program but the enrollment appears to always be lower/fills up slower as they have repeatedly pushed back application deadlines for it almost until a week or two before the program start.
What happened to 42 Silicon Valley School? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Not right now no. ADA Developers is free and I would look into it. But nothing in life is free, someone is paying something somewhere because not enough people will donate their time to create content and to teach that would be needed to have this kind of thing at scale.
Springboard vs tech elevator · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
they have very stringent requirements to get the refund/ISA forgiven. Not sure if that has changed but you have to ready the fine print and many people were not eligible for refund who thought they would be going in (this is based on things about 1.5 years ago, so again - check to see what the latest fine print is)
Realistic Expectations of a Bootcamp · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I stand by my previous prediction here about why things are so negative right now https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1226i27/bootcamp_predictions_for_the_rest_of_2023/
Signs of trouble? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I think the primary letter is a better source for this news: https://adadevelopersacademy.org/2023/05/24/organization-update/
It's really sad because they did such a great job making such great partnerships with companies that resulted in their students getting real, multi-month internships, with good companies before graduating. Unfortunately a lot of those companies aren't hiring full time and don't have headcount and the 'wheels kind of fall of the bus' so to speak.
The program was free because companies paid for placements and donated to Ada, etc... and if the companies can't hire anybody and won't take on internships, the program doesn't sustain itself in the current form.
There is some info here on their expansion plans: [https://adadevelopersacademy.org/grow-with-us/](https://adadevelopersacademy.org/grow-with-us/) and you can see how much growth in funding they needed to susta…
Which single most important factor helped you decide on the bootcamp to attend? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Choosing a program based on outcomes is extremely dangerous. Outcomes should be used as a way to identify a small number of "legit" programs, but it's **extremely important** to look at outcomes of people with a background similar to yourself.
I chat with so many people that want to go to Codesmith or X because they like all the conversations with alumni from X but that Codesmith has the "best outcomes". For people who are doctors, lawyers, accountants, PMs, mechanical engineers, CS grads, I say sure because those outcomes are representative of people with your background. For people who have no "office work experience" you are better off finding a lower paying job that's a really good fit and Codesmith's methods are harmful to your development for most people - pushing someone whose never sat at desk before to get a mid level job and reject an entry level offer is not the right approac…
Bootcamp as a CS grad · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I haven't seen that many people do it, which is why I said it's a bit of a last resort option. I would say it works more the other way around - if the option presents itself to you, consider it, rather than go out seeking them. There are a lot of scams out there. You want a genuine "contract to hire" relationship and not someone stringing you along to help them with their unfunded project for as long as they can get you to work for free.
And yeah smaller companies/very small startups tend to hire senior engineers because they don't have the bandwidth to manage and train junior engineers, that's the downside, but for the right person it can drastically accelerate your career because you can quickly get to a scope of responsibility you wouldn't get elsewhere.
What was your first salary after boot camp? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
>160k
Ah the good old Amazon days....
What was your first salary after boot camp? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Posting salaries is really not useful and it's all anecdotal. I have an non-CS engineering degree and I made more money in a year than most Americans earn in a lifetime in my first job at Facebook.... does that mean everyone should do a 4 year non-CS engineering degree because it worked for me? Obviously not! Just because someone went to Hack Reactor or Codesmith and got a job making $120K, it means nothing. You will be mislead if you do something because a small number of people comment on Reddit about it.
Bootcamp as a CS grad · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I wouldn't recommend a bootcamp right now. Codesmith is a program that markets to CS grads and people with more experience and even their placements rates as reported from recent alumni have dropped drastically since last reported.
I have a few recommendations to look at... what works for you is ultimately a personal choice, but just things to consider:
1. Consider career accelerators: Formation.dev (disclosure: co-founder), Interview Kickstart, Outco, Pathrise, Coachable.dev, Scaler, are main ones to look at. These are all very different programs but they focus on fine tuning and enhancing existing skills and focus entirely on the job hunt. They pick up where bootcamps end basically.
2. Consider doing volunteer work at places like Hack4LA, or other Code For America branches. This is a way to get more realistic "volunteer work experience" that is a notch above a group project that you…
So is there a coding bootcamp that is REALLY worth it? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
42 Schools is a free school supported by a french billionaire. They had a physical campus in Silicon Valley, across the bridge from FB's HQ, that also had free housing. Needless to say it was swamped with people from all over that wanted free school and free housing and had very little operational support. It shut down after COVID :(
It's actually all self-paced content with their proprietary, gamification-based platform that you had to do in person on their provided computers, and you could would work through with other students. It's a pretty unique approach.
After being unsuccessful int he USA, they focused on international as their other campuses had more success, and it's been chugging a long around the world.
This subreddit focused on USA-based programs.
HELP · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
The most important thing for everyone to learn here is how to Google "string interpolation in c sharp" and learn about it until you understand what's going on here, even if it takes an hour of reading and examples and rereading something 5 times.
Debugging and problem solving skills are what will get you a job!
My honest Turing College review · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
What other options did you consider and why did you choose Turing College?
Codesmith slowly and quietly shut down the data and machine learning intensive? Anyone know why? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati posted · · edited ★ FEATURED
Codesmith slowly and quietly shut down the data and machine learning intensive? Anyone know why?
I noticed a few months ago that Codesmith had removed all future cohorts for the data and machine learning intensive from their website but kept the landing page up, and now the entire program is gone (it used to be here: [https://www.codesmith.io/data-science-and-machine-learning-immersive](https://www.codesmith.io/data-science-and-machine-learning-immersive#upcoming_program_dates))
Anyone know why?
I don't think this reflects poorly or is a sign that there are troubles at Codesmith as it was a new program. It's probably a good thing so that they can focus on placing people in the immersive during a really hard time.
EDIT: Someone DM's and I won't share the details because it was a private message, but the program evolved into a separate, more academic, project outside of the Codesmith b…
Non-Doomsday Codesmith Take · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I PERSONALLY agree, but I still want to deeply understand why people who also agree have gone down this path after thinking they wouldn't. I feel it leaves me with a nuanced understanding to help people navigate... but this my job and my prerogative
I find the way that Codesmith itself defends the mid-level and senior target roles more bothersome because it puts pressure on people to do this and they too have seen thousands of people go through the program and deeply understand why they are doing it.
Build a Dev, April 2023 Cohort - Review so far! · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited
Reddit took action against them for circumventing Build a Dev's ban, and almost all of their content for the past week across several subs has been deleted and marked as spam.
It's sad because if the reboot of the program is good and doesn't have all the problems of the past, they no longer have the ability to spread the word because Reddit has identified their accounts, computers, IPs, and content of all their posts as suspicious now and even legit accounts content is being removed for talking about. They definitely aren't doing Reddit right at the very least and the pushback against me personally is so incredibly misplaced that if they truly believe it they will fail for sure and get into legal trouble too... I highly recommend reseting the marketing strategy and starting from scratch.
Build a Dev, April 2023 Cohort - Review so far! · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
The post was removed by Reddits spam filters and Data Mastery's posts from the past week have all been removed as spam. It's really sad that if you are posting honestly that you can't even spread your opinion because Build A Dev is using Data Mastery's account to circumvent a ban, got caught, and all their stuff is marked as spam and everyone associated with them is being flagged.
I'm trying to get a sense of what most bootcamps lack, curriculum-wise · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Dynamic and self paced is the way to go. You have to be in the driver's seat the whole time but there can be different routes to get from A to B! A bootcamp is like driving from NY to SF and there is one road you must drive down at EXACTLY the speed they tell you to, rather than choosing the path you like the most. Maybe you love southern food and want to swing by the south. Maybe you want to hit up Canada. Maybe you want to take the shortest route possible and speed excessively. maybe you want to avoid highways and go super slow, maybe you want to hit all the national parks along the way, maybe you want to try to cross as many states as possible.
Some programs that are self-paced let you go down that single path at your own speed - which is just one tiny small step towards the amazing, creative world we want where you can get to the same destination on your own journey!
Sorry, super…
Question about ISAs · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
ISAs are a contract between you and another party and they have spotty regulation, so the specifics highly depend on your specific ISA, the ISA provider, and the relationship between the ISA provider and the program.
They also depend on your contract with the bootcamp and when your obligation becomes due.
For example, if your contract says you owe $10K after the 10th week and the bootcamp goes bankrupt in week 12. The $10K owed is still on their books and collectible during and after bankruptcy is resolved and someone will come knocking. What would likely happen is another program or the ISA provider themselves might acquire the ownership of that $10K obligation and make sure you eventually pay it, even if the bootcamp is long gone.
If you DM me more specifics about your program, the ISA provider, I can do my best to comment more specifically.
I'm trying to get a sense of what most bootcamps lack, curriculum-wise · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
1. DS&A is lacking but the problem has been misdirected to a lack of "Leetcode training", when in fact it's a lack of fundamental computer science concepts. Like what does "programming" truly mean and why do we write code and building problem solving skills from there. And I completely agree it takes MONTHS to build these skills. Disclosure: I run a program for experienced engineers that focuses on DS&A amongst other things, so I'm bias, but it often takes people longer to build theses skills then the amount of time they spent in their entire bootcamp in the past.
2. I agree with lack of super front-end web but I don't think it's necessary for a first job.
The fundamental flaw with bootcamps is the one size fits all curriculum sprayed out 'firehose style".
It's not conducive to learning anything and instead tests for resilience, determination, raw aptitude, and self-confidence - all t…