How is that true considering their CIRR job placement rates..? Pretty good odds of getting a job after codesmith.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
The 21.4% of people who don't get jobs + 5% that don't graduate + 16.4% making under $100K means almost a 43% chance of not getting a job or getting a job under $100K... and that's for ALL BACKGROUNDS, including the people with CS degrees and past experience.
u/jhkoenig wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I suggest that you evaluate your options assuming that "lifetime career services" has a value of zero for both options. Maybe in a few years when the tech market settles down the career services offered by both the camps and the traditional schools will get some traction again, b
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
1. +1 the Lifetime career services at bootcamps aren't helpful because they are meant to help bootcamp grads get jobs. When you have a job and want to get a better job, they don't support you as much as you could. I've heard people say "\[my bootcamp's career services\] helped me negotiate my next offer and it's a gift that keeps on giving".... but what they don't realize is that if they sought help from others that specialize in experienced engineers (disclosure: co-founder of Formation which helps and hence I'm very biased) that you might have made wayyyyy more. The average person placed after Formation increased their first year TC by $96K (see website for how we calculate). So if you are super thankful for "free" help to you increase you compensation by $50K, you could have paid $10K to make almost $100K more... Anyways, this isn't an ad for Formation - Formation has lots of concerns and caveats you need to consider and is not for everyone, but I'm just pointing out why lifetime career services at bootcamps aren't super useful later on.
2. The cost of career services is baked into the program costs and is a part of the tuition. So you are paying for "lifetime career services" in your tuition that as a result of #1, aren't that useful.
u/Detrite wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I'm amazed they have so many qualified people already taking the bootcamp where 100k is your benchmark for acceptable salary out of the bootcamp
u/michaelnovatireplied·
For people attending Codesmith it certainly is. They actively discourage people from taking offers under $120Kish and tell them that they are hurting their careers by taking these jobs. It's different form of pressure from other programs.
u/Detrite wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Wow have I got news for these students. 120k is basically mid-level unless you are all in a high cost of living area
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Yeah exactly, students are pushed towards "mid level" roles at less strong companies that pay $120Kish. It's one of my criticisms of the career services product there, that most bootcamp grads are better off at top companies as entry level engineers and they discourage people from looking for those jobs.
The "Codesmith way" of doing things is particularly impactful at less good companies that don't realize the resumes are exaggerated or look into was OSLabs is, and I think that's a factor in why they encourage this. These strategies don't work at top companies and Codesmith grads just look like any other bootcamp grads to them.
u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Again, you're free to reach out to an unbiased selection of alum on LinkedIn to see if your hypothesis all these Codesmith grads are getting fired is true.
And I'm not at all agreeing Codesmith people are mired in SWE mediocrity, but I don't know if you're just out of touch, but
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
From my experience, people are very happy and proud to drop their names in the spreadsheet and cheer on their peers outcomes... and a lot more reluctant to talk about how hard it is on the job and the failures that come with it.
I think this is the reason you see so many Hackbright and Hack Reactor and App Academy alumni at FAANG companies 5 years down the road, and while you see a good number of Codesmith alumni at FAANG too there is a greater number 3 jobs in as "senior engineers" at unknown non-tech companies pushing $200K. A mid-level Google offer though is $300K and I reiterate that an appropriate first job -> FAANG mid-level is a much better outcome down the road than what most Codesmith students do.
u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I don't know how to debate this and don't think it's a valuable debate for 99% of people on the sub. It seems you're saying that Hack Reactor/App Academy are more likely to work in FAANG five years down the road than Codesmith, who flame out in run-of-the-mill SWE jobs making a p
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I totally understand how my view here could come across elitist or disconnected for not just the average but most people.
The reason is that inequality is a huge problem in the US. People who are starting off lower almost never make socioeconomic jumps to catch up to the people who start off higher. And the above argument is a reason why. A kid born to millionaires expects to make a "measley" $200K as a fallback in case they fail out in life. Whereas someone born in the lowest income bracket might dream of having a stable job and making 60K.
To address inequality I'm pushing people to all have the same expectations and trying to create paths for people to make the jump even if they don't see a path themselves or have the confidence they can do it.