Did you read above where I recommended the person go there?
I've asked you to stop repeating incorrectly that my company competes with Codesmith and the official on the record answer is we do not at this time. I've corrected that numerous times now and repeating that is harassing and I'm asking you to stop. If you think we compete with them prove it or say that it's your "opinion" that we compete with them.
Hmm it sounds of all the bootcamps Codesmith might be a good choice.
If you have been doing the tech consulting for a few years, consider career accelerators. I'm the co-founder of Formation but I don't think we would accept you with your background - need more direct SWE experience, but others are Pathrise and Interview Kickstart - to compare and see what's out there options wise.
I would also consider a CS masters - a bit slower and more expensive but a good option if you want it to go the honest and traditional route.
For example, if you go to Codesmith you might end up calling your consulting work Software Engineer on your resume and push to get senior jobs at non tech companies. And if that feels good, definitely do Codesmith, if not, maybe do a masters.
I don't trust any ratings at all, especially Course Report.
Codesmith had almost no reviews in 2024 and offered people people who successfully got jobs swag to write reviews and got like 20 in two weeks.
It can easily be manipulated in various ways and they make money from bootcamp sponsorships.
Harvard is $57,261 for 30 weeks a year = $1908 a week. Codesmith is $1676 a week.
So yeah it's expensive, but they say they have the outcomes of an ivy league grad school for a fraction of the price
I know a lot about Codesmith. It's the best program at what it does, if you are ambitious, doing well as a ChemE/consultant, want a good job at a non-top-tier tech company, and have enough coding experience to pass the bar. If you will frame your experience in the most SWE way and run with it... it does work.
It's not a good place to go if you have no professional experience, want to be 100% honest about background, want an entry level job (you will be told over and over how you are a midlevel engineer by doing Codesmith), then it's not a good place to go.
If it's public and has users, and you spend all summer on it - yes.
In fact someone I hired at Meta as an intern who was an amazing engineer there was someone who made an iOS game that was SUPER impressive.
If we're talking a CS or engineering degree, I would 100% recommend finishing your degree and DOING INTERNSHIPS IN THE SUMMER. If you can't get an internship, volunteer, if you can't volunteer spend the summer building a startup (aka a project that is launched live and has real users).
I don't think you'll get anything at all out of a bootcamp.
Yeah having run a range of programs with different demographics, this is a huge challenge. People who are really ambitious think they can do it and a number of people will drop, and since this is completely NO COST, there is less reason to stick to it. I'm happy to try to send the right people their way for this but I'm waiting to hear more about who qualified.
You have to have "little to no programming experience" and Codesmith claims their free CSX platform produces engineers capable of getting junior roles at LinkedIn and Meta, and I don't know anyone even earlier in their journey.
Feel free to DM but it ultimately depends on the contract you signed and how reasonable the bootcamp is in considering discounts.
I would read the contract carefully. If you are bound to owe the full amount then try to find places where the company didn't live up to their side of the contract to negotiate down the amount.
Hmm, so I'm not sure post-COVID, but before, the phone screen was audio only and the onsite was IN PERSON. Now I'm not so sure, but I would be prepared to do video on.
I disagree with that. I personally agree that AI will change what engineering means, just like computers changed what engineering means. In the future, maybe there will be a new degree that doesn't exist yet for people take to work on leading edge technology, but for now a CS degree at a top school is a good option.
Yeah it's really a good option if you live in NYC and meet the stringent criteria.
You are required to have little to no programming experience, and Codesmith claims that CSX's free curriculum prepares people to be junior engineers.
So presumably to qualify you can't even have don't CSX and have to be REALLY beginner.
I'm curious how the people will place and what kinds of jobs they'll get, the info says people are targeting $65K jobs which is lower than Codesmith's median Immersive ENTRANCE STUDENT HAS!!
The other risk is the time - 8 hours days 9 to 5 for 6 months is a VERY long time. People can't work day jobs and have to work nights and weekends, and that's not easy.
But all of this aside, if you meet the requirements and this works for you, this is a great option FOR FREE!!! compared to a lot of other options you have.
SWE is an interesting field because you can get in the industry with your brain and problem solving abilities, and it's a high paying and impactful job. There's no bootcamp to be a doctor or lawyer.
I think bootcamps will survive this downturn but by evolving. A 12 month part time bootcamp that costs $20K versus a 12 WEEK bootcamp costing $20K might make more sense. OR perhaps people need more AI driven self-paced learning + projects.
Maybe SWE will start forking into more tiers of jobs and the goal will be to do a bootcamp -> super entry level transitional role (e.g. prompt engineering) -> SWE job.
Maybe being a SWE will be like being an MD Doctor, and all the physician assistant, registered nurse, nurse, etc... jobs with portions of the 'powers' of an MD will be the jobs you get out of a bootcamp, and the SWE job is the job you get after a couple of years if you are interested in h…
I've been around the block a few times here.
Right now a GOOD CS DEGREE w/ INTERNSHIPS is the only CONSISTENT pathway to an entry level job right now.
**This doesn't mean that you should get a CS degree and not go to a bootcamp!!!**
What this means is that companies aren't hiring entry level engineers from less good CS degrees and from bootcamps right now **AT SCALE,** but on an individual basis some people can get jobs with bootcamps.
The bootcamps grads and non-top tier CS grad strategy to get jobs is similar right now - networking, reach outs, referrals, friends.
The top-tier CS grad strategy is internships, recruiters on campus, apply online - i.e. the "easy way".
Now why is this happening this way at scale at big companies?
At top tier companies - the majority find that Stanford and MIT grads perform better over time so they focus on hiring those people as interns as early as…
I think you mean this link: [https://techcrunch.com/2024/05/01/tech-layoffs-2023-list/](https://techcrunch.com/2024/05/01/tech-layoffs-2023-list/)
But yeah a lot of layoffs aren't SWEs, but there has been an increase in SWE layoffs in 2023 as well.
I was at Will Sentance's talk yesterday about the market in 2024 and I strongly disagree with the narrative that SWE jobs are changing. His premise was that Non-tech companies are hiring laidoff FAANG engineers to bring the same engineering bar to the non-tech companies, resulting in a ton of SWE jobs moving to traditionally non-tech companies.
Just not seeing that whatsoever. I'm seeing CODESMITH GRADS go to non-tech companies because they can't get hired at top tier companies in this market (because of the market, not because of Codesmith).
I'm seeing tech companies hiring very reasonably right now in mid level, senior and higher roles a…
yeah nucamp to me is possibly in the Springboard alternative yeah, to me it's alternative to 'typical' bootcamp though that's a lot cheaper. the top bootcamps tend to be smaller, hard to get into, and every effective for the right peopel
Well every bootcamp is worth looking into yeah and I would never recommend a bootcamp for everyone, always depends on you.
But generally speaking in this market, even graduates from the top bootcamps are struggling, so it's more about you than the bootcamp right now
If your current job is not in programming and you want a part time bootcamp, Codesmith is the only top one that has part time. Launch School Core is self paced and part time but the immersive capstone is not.
If you are already an engineer, look at Pathrise, Formation (disclosure: co-founder), Interview Kickstart for levelng up your career.
Yes but the difficulty depends on the specific system.
1. USER DATA! you have to be careful how you share PII and it could be a deal breaker if you dont share it properly with the AI and have appropriate safeguards.
2. Speed. AI is not fast and you have to take that into account in any system you are building. If it needs to be fast it's a lot of engineering work to get there.
Ideal bootcamp student:
1. Has significant savings and can live with minimal impact to lifestyle for a year
2. Has natural inclination to programming, picks it up easily, finds it enjoyable, and might have previously dabbled in it because of tangential work experience (e.g. mechanical engineer).
3. Is autodidactic.
4. Has professional work experience (in tech or non tech, but was successful in that career)
5. You are ready to hustle your way to a job but realize that's just the beginning and are ready to hustle your way through the first 2 years.
Who is NOT the ideal bootcamp student:
1. Don't have savings and crossing your fingers you get a job within 3 months of graduating because the bootcamp told you it's possible
2. You don't like your job and aren't doing well and hoping this could be the career that clicks.
3. You think you chose the wrong career that doesn't pay well a…
I think this is a really good interview. Elie is extremely transparent that the market is bad and it's impact their business, even vaguely suggesting that Rithm wouldn't be able to continue forever if people continue to not sign up and attendance is way down because the market is rough.
Meanwhile Codesmith's CEO is [tweeting](https://twitter.com/willsentance/status/1785384627378508272) about how unbelievably incredible Codesmith's outcomes are. Leaving out the fact that offers in general offers are down this year, he presents an uncharacteristically strong week as if it's the norm that happens from the Codesmith approach of applying for jobs.
Then look you lookup the person who got an Amazon job and see they have a ton of experience and are coming back from a very long career break. **Which is fantastic and I might recommend someone in that position GO TO CODESMITH TOO.**
It's extrem…
My 2 cents personal opinion. THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, THIS IS MY OPINION!
1. Lawsuits are a last resort for dealing with a company and can sometimes even cost more than you get back to conduct (court and lawyer fees). They are usually because a company is violating the contract in such a harmful and egregious way and is not cooperating with sorting out the issues with you.
2. A lot of contracts have disclaimers and limitations on damages so if you get to the point of a lawsuit, you might want to first pay a lawyer $200 to review the contract and see what kind of case you might have.
3. It's always a good idea to talk to the bootcamp first (which it sounds like you did).
4. A contract is a legal document, so you can't just make arguments out of no where for why you want money back, so you have to read through the contract, see what the bootcamp did and did NOT do and then point out…
I have no idea and haven't heard anything.
Only ISAs for people who didn't get a job within 12 months are supposed to get fully cancelled (which is reasonable, the ISAs we had offered in the past had the same clause and even that felt like the most that would be reasonable).
But it also sounds like there are a number of other buckets of people to work through. People who made payments but might have paid more in interest than was advertised might get refunded some amount. And then people with valid ISAs who got jobs I think still have to pay but possibly get to transfer their payment method to a different type.
So I would genuinely give them time.
Almost all of the execs at BloomTech have departed and a lot of people at Leif have also departed. Given the government involved I'm sure no one wants to screw up the processing and it will take quite some time, but that they will do everyt…
Codesmith has been asking alumni to write reviews over the past two weeks, resulting in 14 reviews in the past 2 weeks after having 2 reviews in the 3 MONTHS prior.
Can you DM me with more information about who is choosing between Codesmith and Formation? I think you have a super wrong view about what Formation is and does. If you don't want to reach out to clear this up, please refrain from misrepresenting Formation.
**12 out of 14 mention they were career switching and 2 don't say either way. ZERO of these alumni would have been admitted to Formation when they started Codesmith. 100% of them might be admitted to Formation now as alumni and moved on. And our new data (to be published Friday) shows that we helped engineers who placed in 2024 so far increase their first year total comp by** [**$109K**](https://formation.dev/terms#outcomes)
**So if anything, Codesmith + Formation would…
PRACTICE WITH ACTIONABLE FEEDBACK! Full disclosure that I'm the co-founder of Formation and I comment here a lot in a personal capacity, but this is my personal advice and I'm not trying to advertise Formation.
There is nothing like practicing and getting feedback and iterating.
You can do this for free by interviewing at 2nd choice companies or if you have friends who can run legit, high quality mock interviews (that simulate the real ones).
So I also recommend considering paid options, like [Interviewing.io](http://Interviewing.io), [HelloInterview.com](http://HelloInterview.com), [Formation.dev](http://Formation.dev)
Some people don't want to pay for prep and I'm not saying you have to, but it's working considering and knowing what your options are. Professional athletes all have paid coaches and it can be very effective. It can also be a waste of money, that's why you have to con…
Sorry I'm totally happy with you having your own opinion too! I also think there are a ton of problems with CS degrees, both specific one sand CS degrees overall.
I think acknowledging different angles is how we move forward and absolutely respect you presenting your opinion.
100% agree we are both entitled to opinions and I'm glad we label them as such.
I worked at Meta from 2009 to 2017 and bootcamps came on the scene in 2012. So I worked before, during, and after they settled down a bit.
I can't give facts because I'm not allowed to reveal confidential information about Meta, even though I left.
So you're right that I can only state an opinion. My opinion is based on my observations there working with recruiting, mentoring, hiring, interviewing over 400 people.
Those are very strong credentials but they are super limited to just Meta, during a period of time, and then my personal lens at Meta, and they are not facts.
Unless you have facts, maybe clarify at least what experiences are supporting your claims and then let people reading this interpret for themselves where the arguments land however they want.
See my comment about why one off personal anecdotes, while entirely valid, don't counter the large scale data trend and they make people who shouldn't go into bootcamps have hope it will work for them.
If we could identify all the people like you and get them into bootcamps, the world would be a better place.
I think these arguments highlight the issues that come from lack of diversity in tech and why that's a big problem to solve.
But that doesn't change the argument that if Google/Meta/Cisco/etc... have tends of thousands of engineers... sophisticated calibration process to assess their performance relative to each other on metrics that are important to the businesses success... and bootcamp grads initially perform significantly worse than new grads from top CS schools.
I know a number of large companies that have tried and tried to hire bootcamp grads. When I bring it up to friends it's like 'omg no' type reaction followed by a story of how it burned them in the past that always unique to that person.
It's not A vs B and it's not going to be solved if both sides attack each other.
Bootcamp grads aren't initially as good. Accept that fact. Then figure out how to build pathways for bootc…
Three guesses:
1. It's uses for automated testing to see if services are up in running. Automated systems that fetch the page and make sure the content says "Hello World!!"
2. It was there since the beginning of Netflix and people keep it around for nostalgia and as an easter egg
3. Someone added it for fun because of the autonomy engineers have there.
I would start with something self-paced and free, rather than a bootcamp.
Bootcamps tend to take materials that could be free or cheap and add in community and networking (for accountability and for job hunting), so they are super expensive if you just want the learning part.
I would consider a CS masters that takes non CS grads in your case.
I would also consider various free or cheap online courses, like if you have a math-y background CS-50 maybe?
All the richest people I know from millionaires to billionaires didn't make their money with the goal of being rich.
It's too competitive of an industry and the people who did well were primarily lucky, but they made their luck by pouring their heart and soul into their work and then the money.
So it's illegal to discriminate based on backgrounds in hiring decisions, so what a lot of companies do to try to increase diversity is to just cast a wider net to a more diverse set of sources, rather than just sourcing from what's been working for them (e.g. Stanford).
As a result companies will try to source from bootcamps as an effort to cast a wider net. But ultimately if the people don't meet the bar during a fair and calibrated interview process, nothing about their background can legally make up for that.
One might argue that people from a bootcamp background have a ton of potential but lack the skills to qualify for entry level jobs at top companies, so some companies have pathways like apprenticeships and we see a lot of apprenticeships being heavily marketing to bootcamp grads (and other non-traditional sources).
But yeah, DEI stuff is a gray area (as we've seen with some…
It really depends on your background. Feel free to message me more details.
For a small number of people, a bootcamp is a good choice, for others a post-bacc, others a whole degree, others get a tangential job and pivot on the job, others get a masters.
I support people doing whatever they want on their resumes and I support the companies choosing to respond how they want.
If too many lies and exaggerations get through and have bad on-sites, and companies stop hiring bootcamp grads, then that's the consequence and bootcamps will fail.
If people are actually qualified and it's gatekeeping that's keeping them out, then lying might be an ends justify the means argument.
The problem is that many companies have essentially blocked bootcamps grads and many bootcamps are struggling to stay afloat so it's clear where the market is.
When bootcamps had a higher bar and produced higer potential talent and companies had too many slots to fill, bootcamp grads were barely able to get a foot in the door and it was still a challenge.
I made a comment already but individual people can succeed and it likely doesn't have to do with the bootcamp. Stories of people succeeding and 'changing their lives' are so powerful though they make others - who don't pattern match to any traits of successful grads - think the same might happen to them.
Yeah, I remember that a Facebook. If a receruiter sends a candidate to interview that lied about their resume and the engineer figured it out, it was a flip the table thing and made the recruiter look bad and the whole bootcamp look bad.
IMO, I think this is why a number of bootcamps have shut down, shrunk, re-org'd, etc...
The inverse isn't true though. People are all individuals, and an individual who is a bootcamp grad might be a special case that is hirable, will have a great career and outperform others.
But their experience doesn't represent most bootcamp grads.
I need a lot more information to help here, feel free to DM me more details, but a few possibilities:
1. it's a mistake and someone put in the wrong numbers
2. it's possible you got a bonus, tax refund, or a specific month with more income? ISAs are month to month, and maybe 13% of one months income was $1700 because you had a massive bonus or tax return check that month?
3. if you make a lot of money you still pay the high payments but you cap-out before the end of the 4 years (or whatever) so if you DID pay $1700, you would probably cap-out.
If it's 2, then it should go back down next month.
Yeah that's not cool, unless they plan on having the conference still as they "wind down operations".
Another strategy people have done is post they are shutting down as a forcing function for big donors to come in and keep them going.
Hopefully they sort out the conference :(
Sometimes a new CEO is brought in with the intention of winding down a business. I have no idea if this is the case, but these shutdowns don't happen overnight and are often many months in the planning.
Maybe you can DM me more, someone who works/worked there was explaining in detail how they were working to decrease the first sprint dropout rate and made good progress. It was definitely not rare for people to drop out almost right away.
I don't know who "him" is, but if they were there for 2 years that doesn't sound accurate.
What I suspect is people don't explicitly "drop out" but they just ghost and disappear and are still "enrolled" forever.
Completely agree with self paced programs it's almost impossible to come up with fair graduations rates, which is why I don't actually think it's sketchy that they don't publish something... it can be impossible to publish numbers without context, and they want to make sure the context is communicated properly.
Can you share in writing how they shared that with you? People contact me indicating that the dropout rate was absolutely not "rarely" and it was a goal to get people to stay longer (this was six months ago)
I did a special degree and out of 40 courses over 4 years, only 3 were not engineering related:
1. History of Ancient Greece
2. Sociology 101
3. Philosophy of Ethics
And I use 2 and 3 almost all the time now hahahaha.
But I get what you're saying and that's why someone who wants to hyperconcentrate in CS can probably do it much faster, just not 12 weeks.
You need some baking time! Like you need to push, sleep, let your brain absorb the ideas, and keep going.
I think I did intro CS courses in various ways like 5 times before I understood what the heck was going on just barely enough.
It's not linear like a bootcamp tries to make it!