App Academy Layoffs · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
That sounds like a lot, how many staff did they have to begin with and what percentage is that?
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App Academy Layoffs · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Ah interesting. Another program seems to be going in the other direction, they only have 2025 part time listed instead of full time. But I it might be that people quitting their jobs to do a full time bootcamp with very rough 12 month placement rates doesn't make sense too.
I'm curious if App Academy is seeing that too or not
App Academy Layoffs · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Thanks for sharing that, that's very noteworthy. It was almost a year long part time program too.
Do you know why they cut part-time instead of full time?
App Academy Layoffs · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Ah ok, keep me posted!
Are their signs of program cutbacks or changes? Or potentially even pauses or shutdowns - like ALL instructors revoked?
They still have a couple of cohorts on their website coming up.
App Academy Layoffs · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
u/Sea-Fix-4099 do you have more info or a source?
TripleTen Bootcamp and Software Engineering Jobs · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
u/Sea-Refrigerator5873
Do you have any observations on cohort size and such? I had heard that since TripleTen split from Yandex (the Russian search conglomerate) that they would have to independently fund the company now, and their runway was not inifite. Since the bootcamp market is so bad, I've been curious if they are going to make it or not.
Meta fined $102 million for storing passwords in plain text · r/webdev
u/michaelnovati replied ·
If I remember correctly, I think there was a couple of situations, again, I'm not speaking on behalf of the company and just as a person reading through these articles.
One was that there's a version of Facebook that runs on feature phones that has no ability to make any kind of requests other than get requests and has very minimal client-side processing, No JavaScript, no cookies, or anything.
So if you had that situation where you can only make get requests and you have zero JavaScript that you can run. how would you do authentication? You have to send the password over get but you have to make sure that every level of your back end isn't logging that in any human readable place. So you have to make sure that your server logs don't show it. you have to make sure that any logging systems that the request metadata gets sent to don't show it basically have it completely thrown away.…
Meta fined $102 million for storing passwords in plain text · r/webdev
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah like it's a great learning opportunity if they would have explained it more haha
The engineers working on authentication might have done a perfect job and not even known because the engineers on logging made a mistake.
Ultimately it was also the fault of another team that audits everything for data integrity and tries to prevent leaks horizontally. And that team has multiple sub teams: one that builds frameworks that others use that percent leaks baked in, another that tries to find leaks proactively in the code, and another that tries to educate engineers on good practices.
A lot goes into all this and the press goes for the clicks haha.
Facebook screwed but it's not simple incompetence.
Meta fined $102 million for storing passwords in plain text · r/webdev
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I worked at Meta for 8 years and don't know about this from the inside and am commenting from my personal point of view.
I believe this was a bug revealed long ago and the fine is finally decided.
The bug wasn't as silly as it sounds if I remember the press and it was a logging issue and not an issue with the security architecture.
It does go to show that client side apps with access to all the decrypted data can have logging bugs even if the fundamental feature is secure.
Is TripleTen a scam? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
yeah the one thing I like about the program is it is a bit more a self-paced because everyone takes a different amount of time to learn the materials. the downside is there's less pressure or momentum to get you to finish in a reasonable amount of time. so it works really well. if you have a flexible time frame and are committed to never giving up and it works less well if you are not in it for the right reasons or give up earlier.
Is TripleTen a scam? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Do you know or did you ask them what percentage of STUDENTS (not graduates) end up getting refunded (not how many place or how many don't, but how many explicitly get refunded)?
Someone I was talking to said that the sprints get a lot harder after the period of time you can leave with a partial refund, and they thought it was very hard to even graduate and people can end up in it for a very long time, neither withdrawing or graduating. But that was just one opinion. And I want to know more!
Is TripleTen a scam? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
If you get refunded, so they refund the interest or just the base?
If you pay $11K via a loan and paid $18K with interest, and don't get a job, and get refunded $11K? or $18K?
Is TripleTen a scam? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
yeah I mean this industry isn't really regulated so it's kind of hard for number three to show one way or the other. but triple ten does seem to have pretty legitimate and legally carefully crafted marketing. so I would assume that they have some kind of like legal process here but 50% off for identifying with a certain gender is pretty crazy.
I know in general that triple ten forked off of the Russian search company Yandex this year to become its own standalone entity. but at the same time it doesn't have the financial backing from them anymore. so I could see them trying to be more creative with discounts to try to get the enrollment that they need. they definitely spend a lot of money on marketing and YouTube sponsorships and such as well.
Is TripleTen a scam? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
there's a lot in this comment that I think would be relevant at the top level too and really changes my perception.
1. the fact that you got or most of it covered from work is really relevant because it kind of changes the decision. I'm not making a comment on if something is a scam or not. I try to make comments on very specific aspects and not the overall program. generally, if a program encourages you to get your work to reimburse training, then usually the work doesn't really care that much what you're doing and the quality can be lower without impacting as much because you're not as angry or upset because your company paid for most of it and your company doesn't really care because they just have these big pools of money to allocate to these programs.
2. If you're working as a day job then I think it's very hard to do codesmith even part time. they have examples of people that d…
Does anyone have any experience joining the pay after placement bootcamp? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Certificates are useless for top tier tech companies because they are too easy to get. Certificates are good for contractor agencies so that you can quickly get assigned to jobs that require those certificates.
Bootcamps that provide internships are good! Ada Developer Academy is an example of one.
I couple of places offer "Externships" which is not a real internship but more like a project that is run like a real company project.
Coding Bootcamps with a Job Guarantee -- Why They Don't Work · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
This is how it worked since the Lambda School days.
The banks backing those are all tiny regional and local banks trying to expand their interests. Maybe to look larger and innovative in support of getting acquired? Maybe as an effort to get some capital to survive?
If the bank isn't doing well (or is doing really well) and gets acquired by a large bank, the large bank reviews these deals and says 'hmmmm'.
Banks move slowly so kind of like CIRR, it takes a while to realize the reality. Most recent CIRR reports don't look so bad.... but things tanked in 2023 and when the banks catchup, we'll see if they continue to back the remaining providers.
Coding Bootcamps with a Job Guarantee -- Why They Don't Work · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I made it half way so far and agree with the analysis and the argument theoretically.
There's an important detail though, which is that even with "job guarantees" the financing is more complicated than just 1. pay upfront and then get tuition back, 2. defer payment entirely until you get a job. The school will get smaller loans in the mean time backed by the contract and who pays what if/when a student isn't placed is complex.
But it's no surprise a couple of loan providers had to very suddenly stop offering loans recently, if the outcomes don't match up, the whole system doesn't work. If all of them stop, it will cause the collapse of remaining bootcamps. Imagine you are a bootcamp and you get an email out of no where that effective immediately you can no longer offer loans, and you only have one loan provider. You are basically done unless you find people to pay upfront cash only.
Does anyone have any experience joining the pay after placement bootcamp? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
This hasn't been discussed much but loan providers have been dropping off and even just getting loans for bootcamps has become more difficult.
And those stopped extremely abruptly.
If your program only has ONE loan option, the entire program would be at jeopardy if the banks/loan providers pulled out suddenly like they did for other providers.
So deferring payment is extremely rare now.
I think Launch School still has their ISA model as far as I know.
Bootcamp tips for having a bad instructor? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
It's both true and not what $15,000 should get you
[➕Moderator Note] Promoting High Integrity: explanation of moderation tools and how we support high integrity interactions in this subreddit. · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I agree having rules listed in the rules area would be good to modernize the documentation.
The only rules (other than any Reddit rules and automations to block spam) are listed in the top right: "Irrelevant content, re-sharing promotional content, and referral discount links will be deleted and might get you banned."
So if you share a relevant video and explain why it's relevant to this audience and don't cross post it across Reddit to multiple places then it should be fine yeah (unless Reddit's filters pick it up).
There is a lot of spam and a lot of paid manipulation going on so we try to abide by Reddit's filters to be fair.
Having a good reputation across Reddit and in this sub can help if your posts are caught in filters as well.
Should I be Retaining Anything??? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Personally what works for me is practicing real stuff and hitting my head against the wall until I figure it out. So less reading and videos and more doing.
Should I be Retaining Anything??? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
In my opinion you can't screw it up because rarely do people do down a linear fixed path once and absorb everything and it takes a lot of trial and error and tangents to get there.
The main thing is the cost (which can be the $$$ on GA but also the time and opportunity cost).
Everyone is different. I don't think there is a way to rush it on a fixed schedule - maybe you'll get there on a fixed schedule and maybe you won't but if you are committed to the journey just give enough room to fail and get back up.
Should I be Retaining Anything??? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Given your circumstances I would consider backing out. You'll be competing with people who are super all-in and it might be a long journey after GA too. If the cost isn't a factor then I would do your best but expect many more steps afterwards and repeating some of the stuff before you really get it.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Skews big tech yeah and big companies yea. Meta, Amazon etc...
I would be curious if Gusto publishes that too. Pave also knows a lot about startups as it sucks in Gusto and Rippling.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah it could go back up for sure and I hope it does!
The main point I'm trying to make which I didn't explicitly call out any specific programs, is that this chart is showing very clearly what the reality has been since 2018 and people can compare that to them for themselves to the marketing that they're hearing from specific boot camps.
The boot camps know exactly that this is what the market was like and they see their numbers fluctuate with the market. I talk to them and I know this. and I think that this is why a lot of bootcamps have changed their tune in the past year or two about how they market themselves and the message that they make.
for example, all those guaranteed jobs that you heard about in 2020 at the peak went away and the marketing message changed for a lot of programs.
and I think that people should be trusting programs that have been transparent with them and…
u/michaelnovati replied ·
For WSJ the article has a lot of one off anecdotes like the ones you quoted, but the data is legit and specifically Software Engineer jobs on payroll and not job postings like many other analysis.
I always wanted to be a bootcamp instructor · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
The problem Lambda School had was scale. Look at this chart when you graduated: [https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1flwsaz/new\_wsj\_article\_about\_tech\_jobs\_shows\_one\_chart/](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/1flwsaz/new_wsj_article_about_tech_jobs_shows_one_chart/)
Lambda School then 5X'd right as the market started crashing and their CEO kept marketing as if it was crushing it and everything was going great... eventually the market proved him wrong and the marketing was so far disconnected from reality that it got them into hot water.
Now they are indefinitely paused.
Some other bootcamps have shutdown, some have paused, and some keep telling the a good story like Lambda School did.
But no one can beat the market.
Future Code Update #4 · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah I was curious too. I don't want to be too critical, but the updates don't have anything about the program itself - what's been good, what's been bad, and instead it's more of an update about how the person is doing as if they were learning to code all by themselves following a Udemy course.
I'm fine either way, but I could see people insight into if Future Code is a program for them in the future or not.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I agree with that. I strongly believe that diversity has a very broad meaning in general and the industry has a long way to go, but starting with just gender identity, big tech is still about 75% men and 25% women and moving that needle even just 1% is crazy hard.
I do see reports of stem being more 50/50 in school now and I think it will take a long time for the ratio to be representative.
And in the meantime, programs like Ada play a critical role in helping people who are already past school bridge the gap.
It actually disappoints me tremendously that a lot of intense bootcamps have very poor gender ratios. Women are still primary care givers for children, so I don't think the traditional 11 hour a day 6 day a week bootcamp is doing anything to help.
how many students do you estimate are currently enrolled in coding bootcamps? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Course Report you should do an industry survey but they stopped doing it a few years ago as the industry started declining.
Given the cohort size trends and shutdowns over the past year. I would estimate that it was probably close to 10,000 last year and this year is probably a third of that in the low thousands. Which is ultimately why so many programs are shutting down and laying people off.
As Derek said, there are a bunch of boot camps that maybe are more like upskilling programs for certain sectors or government-sponsored programs and different things like that that like might look like boot camps day-to-day but I wouldn't count those. and I'm only talking about the canonical expensive paid boot camp where you are expecting a job at the end of it.
How does app Academy judge your income with a non-certified job if you chose the differed tuition option? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I don't know for sure for them but for others:
1. Pay stubs
2. Offer letters
3. Bank account statements
4. Tax return reconciliation
I always wanted to be a bootcamp instructor · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Sorry I meant they are over industry trend wise not specific ones.
Launch School is possibly only the least impacted program of all. It's primarily run by the founder and Capstone was always one of the smallest programs so while its enrollment and outcomes have been impacted by the industry collapse it hasn't been on the same scale as others.
For example, they are running cohorts a little smaller than in the past but the same cadence. Whereas Codesmith has 3 upcoming cohorts right now and this time last year had 9 they were enrolling for, and quite frankly 3 is too many.
I always wanted to be a bootcamp instructor · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Hey, I'm ex-Meta 2009-2017 and welcome.
My recommendations of things to look into would be:
1. Meta has internal mentorship opportunities of different shapes and sizes. Helping out juniors from non traditional backgrounds and helping out on the Pathways team might be impactful. DM me if you don't know anyone there and I can give some suggestions of people to reach out to.
2. Do public mentorship. There are a number of ways you can mentor people at bootcamps, or 1-1 for free or paid and everything in between, and I have some recommendations there if you are cool telling me more about yourself. I highly recommend working with industry clubs/groups you might identify with.
3. Get involved with ERGs at Meta.
But yeah bootcamps are over for now. A couple are surviving doing their thing at a very small scale and with a small number of staff.
Important questions to ask. · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
+1 you won't get any unbiased info from them. Most bootcamps are struggling right now so watch out for anyone creating a sense of urgency.
Like "things really turned around this month so I would join right away so you are ready faster to capitalize" or "winter 2025 is the hot hiring season so join next week before it's too late"
Anything along these lines and DO NOT join.
[6 Month Update] Buddy of mine COMPLETELY lied in his job search and he ended up getting tons of inter views and almost tripling his salary ($85k -> $230k) · r/cscareerquestions
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Well my point is the people I've worked with in that bucket, have a hard time knowing what to do for their next job. They might actually want to downlevel to a lower level where they will get support on the job to fill in their gaps.
The group I've people I've talked to about this are people who have lied to enter at a mid-level role when they have no experience, so it might be a bias sample.
Those people have a lot of gaps and now that they have real experience, going for an entry level role requiring "4 years of experience" might be best as the second jump.
[6 Month Update] Buddy of mine COMPLETELY lied in his job search and he ended up getting tons of inter views and almost tripling his salary ($85k -> $230k) · r/cscareerquestions
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah things can come back as "not able to confirm" - for example if a bogus phone number is given and the person declines to provide evidence of a job, and HR doesn't care. Background checks aren't pass/fail.
[6 Month Update] Buddy of mine COMPLETELY lied in his job search and he ended up getting tons of inter views and almost tripling his salary ($85k -> $230k) · r/cscareerquestions
u/michaelnovati replied ·
People will get by doing this as an edge case, and it's not for the faint of heart. I know people who have lied and then not made it past 6 months.
Part of doing well on the job is skills + experience, and some is raw capacities. Some people have zero skills and experience and have all the capacities you need to do well in a job and feel justified in "the ends justify the means".
I personally don't support this approach because I've seen it catch up to people not six months, but 2-3 years down the line.
Specifically at stronger companies.
There are Stanford CS grads with 4 internships on their resume with the same capabilities as the liar AND more experience. Those people will progress faster in their careers and the liar might be "just getting by". Two or three years later the liar is barely getting by and management notices they aren't on track for promotion yet.
When layoffs come…
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Agree with GoodnightLondon, those other jobs don't require or test for AI skills and you are expected to figure it out in the job.
General Engineer 5 years at Google, zero AI experience
will be chosen over
Bootcamp Grad with two weeks of AI who knows what RAG is
... even for a role that is working on AI product!!!?
I surveyed about a hundred ex Meta engineers about this and 90% said they don't care about AI skills when interviewing general engineers, even for product using AI.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Bootcamps job right now is to identify the special unique people in this world that will be great engineers but didn't realize it until after their traditional non-engineering schooling.
This sub has a purpose for helping those people get the ball rolling.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I agree if you are an ML engineer with a PhD or Master's.
If you learned to use AI tools in 2 weeks assume you are.already obsolete because the AI itself is already beyond your capabilities.
I think it's going to take people a lot longer (years) to break into the industry and find a stable job going forward.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Oh sorry, WSJ is one of the only places I pay for because they have extremely good stuff.
u/michaelnovati posted · · edited
New WSJ Article about tech jobs shows one chart that perfectly tells the story of bootcamps rise and decline and how it's not getting any better for early career engineers...
SOURCE: [Tech Jobs Have Dried Up—and Aren’t Coming Back Soon](https://www.wsj.com/tech/tech-jobs-artificial-intelligence-cce22393)
This chart is pulled from the article and sourced from ADP as specified below.
https://preview.redd.it/64urvj4yr3qd1.png?width=1472&format=png&auto=webp&s=542c07126ff96bdde9679fcee77422e7c8cbdc81
This chart tells the evolving story of bootcamps over six years and suggests it's time for the industry to move on.
**2018**: The baseline year, marked by stability in a post-Cambridge Analytica tech market.
**Bootcamps**: Operated largely under the radar, selecting students carefully, holding in-person classes in major tech hubs, and maintaining direct hiring pipelines with companies.…
Future Code Update #4 · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
This was update 4 and based on the times, week 9 mark.
The Future Code New York City Curriculum outline says that you should have finished:
* Text Adventure Game
* Static Portfolio Website
* Interactive App That Solves a Real-World Problem
Can you talk about these? It would be helpful to learn about the output you've produced too.
Future Code Update #4 · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I noticed or heard about 4 staff members leaving recently including the program manager that worked on Future Code, have you been impacted by anything or everything smooth and consistent and not affected?
What coding bootcamps are considered good by people and acknowledge by industries? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
There isn't a universally best bootcamp.
There also isn't a boot camp that's universally recognized by the industry. In fact graduates from some of the boot camps with stronger outcomes tend to not put their boot camp on their resume at all and almost hide the fact that they did one.
I heard Ada started back up and is slowly taking people again and I think that their model works really well because you're placed into a guaranteed internship that has a chance to convert into a full-time job.
But no bootcamps have the strong enough reputation to warrant going there just for that and if anything they have a negative stigma from the industry.
Best coding bootcamp for me in NYC? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Codesmith shut down their NYC campus
I subscribe to ChatGPT, how best to use it during my bootcamp? · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I use ChatGPT to two main reasons:
1. Speed up refactoring or text changes that would need either a script, clever regex, or a multi-step process. For example, I might say something like 'take this array of strings and return an array of objects each with the key 'source' and the value from the array' and then paste a big array.
2. "Stack Overflow" - like can you give me the regex to verify an email address. Or any of those times you have a stack overflow question where you have one of those 500 upvote answers that is clearly unambiguously correct. I also use it to help me get started with API calls for tools, however it's OFTEN WRONG, so this one is a little less useful and normally a fallback if I can't figure it out myself.
Understanding Bootcamp Outcomes in 2024 · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Hard question: can you comment if CIRR's original spec was trying to be transparent, but also "rounding up" (in those definitions, as you described) to present bootcamps in the best light possible, while maintaining that transparency. For example, the number that should be used in marketing according to the spec loses a lot of the nuances above, where definitions alone could have a +/-10% variance in the examples you provided.
You've made a case for why salary shouldn't matter in your writing. I generally agree with that assessment and the right job is much more important than the highest paying one. Being the worse player on an NBA team is generally better than being the best player in the European pro leagues (and a small number of people might disagree based on their own choices but I would argue that even if you get paid more in the other European leagues).
Why do you think salary…
Tech Jobs After a Bootcamp · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
yeah 3-6 months post graduation is quite fast right now. if someone was starting today how much time would you recommend they budget and account for?
totally understand the challenges when someone takes a part time job to pay the bills - it's very good idea for the person, but challenging for DATA lol.
I'm crazy busy right now, might have more q's, but one more question is how engaged are alumni during the job hunt and how confident are you you are hearing from all of them when they get jobs etc... This is a problem with CIRR right now. We saw in the recent Codesmith report that there was a spike in H2 2022 grads who were non-responsive and placed via their LinkedIn's listing a job.
Which is fine, a placement is a placement, but I'm just curious about that more personally. If there are things you do post graduation to keep people engaged, etc...
Tech Jobs After a Bootcamp · r/codingbootcamp
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Thanks for sharing. I like the job breakdown to help tell a picture of what's going on.
Are the placement times coming in part 3? If not, can you comment on relative placement times both for these grads compared to prior windows and for people within this window. For example, were people graduating in 2022 placed faster than people graduating in 2023 or now.
I think it's important to have just qualitative insights if there isn't data, to try to compare... I'm seeing the market being particularly rough right now compared to last year even for bootcamp grads.