Codesmith is one of the top programs with arguably the top outcomes of any bootcamp and is entirely taught by former students. The lead instructors are all former students who were instructors for a few years. The instructors are students hired back full time. The TAs are people who just graduated and do a 3 month contract. The part time advisors are almost all students who now work in industry. Other than the founders and the investors who help out, every instructional staff except one went to Codesmith.
So that doesn't mean it can't work.
Thanks for the quick reply! So that's comparable to the CIRR "percentage of graduates employed within 6 months of graduating" and I don't think that 40% is that bad actually (... and sadly). For people graduating around June through September I expect the placement to be around 50% at the top-of-the-top bootcamps. I expect the people who graduated early 2022 to be higher, and we've yet to see what will happen with graduates end of 2022.
Feel free to DM if you want some broader career advice from my perspective, you seem frustrated at your job hunt right now.
I don't really know what to say but you sound like you went down a rabbit hole. I assure you many people at Facebook were denied offers if they cranked out answers way too quickly and could not demonstrate how they solved the problem, even if they knew how to solve it in their minds.
So you sound like you have a lot of the energy and dedication and raw smarts to do well at these companies, but you're a little tunnel vision on the approach. You should revisit this post in 3 years and reflect on it.
I worked with someone today who spent the vast majority of the past week, only studying graph problems for one of the hardest companies to get into and they weren't asked any graph problems and we're only asked string problems.
You are missing the point in that you still need to learn graphs, dynamic programming strategies and much more complex approaches to solving problems. But people have attendancy of sitting in their room cranking through these problems alone and thinking they know how to do them when in fact they've just really memorized or convince themselves they understand them without really getting signal from the outside that they do until the interviews.
An engineer needs to learn how to solve problems in general. You are paid the big bucks to solve new problems not to regurgitate hard solutions from Leetcode. I'm my opinion you are going to have a stressful and hard time…
I'm not a recent grad so won't answer the question, but zooming out, why to do you get more confused the more research you do?
If you feel like you can see yourself as a good fit in either, then either route will probably be great. One is not objectively better than the other.
A lot of high level outcomes and marketing is great for narrowing down your choices, but at this stage in the decision I would go with the only you wake up in the middle of the night feeling like is the right call... i.e. your gut.
Some warnings I've seen others do:
1. Don't compare exact outcome salaries or placements rates obsessively.... too much wiggle room here, just use them to narrow down in the first place.
2. Curriculum on paper. Don't obsess over every line of the curriculum and compare program to program and/or think that a curriculum with more things is better
3. Don't worry about the stack or lang…
If you are comfortable, DM me your LinkedIn or email and I can check on your application. We have been a little backlogged since the holidays, but you should typically hear back within a week of completing the benchmark.
We're working on that but we don't have it right now. We work with people with full mentorship and training every week until you get a job.. like continuous sessions, tasks, a team of staff in your private channel dedicated to you. In addition, you can ramp up or down your workload week to week, take pauses, be full time or part time, and everything is scheduled around your availability. Even people with zero experience often have part-time jobs and other fields or our primary caregivers. So it's really hard to "placement rates" that make sense. I want to avoid people comparing us to bootcamps which traditionally give these 6 months after graduation rates. We don't have graduation and we don't have cohorts either.
All things considered it takes people 1 to 12 months to find a job, and usually around 6.
We have two goals. First, we want to get your skill level up to the top tier technical bar and behavioral bar. so whether you have a hard time or easy time getting interviews, you'll be able to pass FAANG level technical interviews (unless you choose to leave earlier). Second, we try to help you find the best paths possible to your target companies and try to find good fits for you. There are a lot of ways to be referred to a company, could be to a hiring manager, could be to a recruiter, could be a friend submitting your resume to a general system. Many, engineers will also come in with recruiters proactively messaging them and they need help navigating those conversations but they don't even need referrals. So it's really case by case but we don't guarantee specific interviews or have quotas or anything like that or pre-arranged positions. We have a crazy strong network of hundreds of…
Similar to BloomTech's backend program where all the graduates were placed at Amazon but it was a selective small number around 20, I imagine the first cohorts of this program will have a super high bar so they can ensure success and iron out the kinks. They might even take SWEs who want to convert for example.
At Formation I just pulled upcoming interviews in Jan/Feb of all experience levels which have more than one person interviewing at: Airbnb, Bloomberg, Palantir, Uber, Microsoft, Google, Realtor, Flatiron Health, Travelers, Upwork, Autodesk, Reddit, Patreon, Expedia, Flexport, Hashi.
For people with zero experience: Palantir, Bloomberg, Realtor, Google, Reddit, and numerous people interviewing at smaller companies.
Sorry don't have great data for just this but I tried, timeboxed to a few minutes.
I count 23 people there and 5 with jobs and yeah there are some with jobs don't list the OSP anymore on LinkedIn and don't show up on LinkedIn yeah but some people there with jobs show up on the people tab more me on LinkedIn.
People might not list their new jobs for a while though but the placements rates don't seem great right now.
Two people on that list have new jobs. The people tab has both current and former employees sorted via an algorithm.
18 people seems right around correct for 4 cycles of Svelvet, but you could find out internally if this is correct or not, I'm just going off LinkedIn
It's definitely possible some people entirely remove it from their profiles after getting a job because it's not really a company/employment and can cause issues in a background check.
There are a lot of active people on here from both Hack Reactor and Codemsith who have completed the programs in the past few months so hopefully they will chime in with direct experience. From my observations it's not good for bootcamp grads and new grads.
It's very easy to follow Codemsith OSP projects on LinkedIn and it's loud and clear when new releases come out. Keep in mind, 6 months from graduation is a long time for CIRR and GRAD... you have to look at graduates from June 2022 to get a fair, 6 months window. The hiring market was still okay back then. People who graduated in Nov/Dec have until spring to find a job to count as a placement.
I pulled up one project Svelvet on LinkedIn that has 18 employees listed. Of those, 2 had jobs listed. Now the people who finished in October still have a few months to find a job. Anyone who was a fellow at Codemsith has an extra 3 months on…
I've been yelled at for not disclosing my affiliations before. I talk about Formation as a reference because I don't know anyone else here that his worked with hundreds of bootcamp grads from all kinds of bootcamps at all stages in-after-much-after. Nor are there any other E7-principal FAANG engineers here that helped grow a FAANG company from 200 engineers to 10,000. I've been here for almost a year now, giving all kinds of advice and telling dozens of people to go to specific bootcamps... Codesmith lines seem longer than ever to me!
I'm obviously super biased and I try to disclose that, but I also have a unique point of view that many find valuable!
I don't pretend I don't have biases, and don't mind some criticism, but I appreciate a kinder calling out if you find me annoying :D
It does not. We aren't a school or bootcamp. We are very upfront (both on our website and in the fine print) that we don't have a curriculum, certificates, courses, lectures, and that everyone will have a unique training experience. The "program buckets" are based on your starting point and how much work you need to do but everyone will have a unique path. So we are not a school or post secondary education for any kind of government program, scholarships, etc...
Hi, yeah can answer!
* We published a little breakdown here: [https://formation.dev/blog/2022-formation-fellow-placements/](https://formation.dev/blog/2022-formation-fellow-placements/). Most people have some experience coming in (2/3 of people) and the 1/3 that didn't, were equally split across bootcamp grads, CS grads, and self taught developers.
* No upfront payment or deposit currently
* Yes open to Canadians but we administer the ISA ourselves, and payments are based on and made in CAD if you get a job in Canada.
I edited to clarify that, I meant both employed SWEs and not yet employed SWEs, I know more than a handful of mock interviewers and coaches with no experienced at all except at Codesmith itself as a paid employee.
I also consider graduates who are employed as "peer support" imo. At Formation we have senior engineers at FAANG companies as normal Fellows looking to change jobs believe it or not who will be peer with each other, but also peers to bootcamp grad Fellows with no job yet. Those are just standard peer sessions and interactions. The actual mentors/mentorship is from very senior engineers (or from 5 to 10+ year FAANG recruiters) who are experts at 1-1 and small group mentoring and they are paid very well at their day jobs and we pay them well as well.
Again sorry for the tangent, I just talk about this a lot to people 1-1 and this is meant more for others who might read this.
This still feels like you graduate and go in "support mode" where some other students/graduates (edit: graduates can be employed SWEs or not yet employed) hired as coaches (i.e. peers) check up on you. It's a wonderful and amazing community but it's still peer based. At Formation.dev we have a bunch of people who are/have been Codesmith coaches or mock interviewers and they are just graduates themselves without jobs or with minimal work experience. So the support is more like "enhanced peer support" and not the full weight of Codemsith behind you. Maybe over time it will be stronger as graduates many years into their jobs give back.
Codesmith experimented with a DSA course for alumni and they charged them for it at a heavily discounted rate so I would expect them to charge for any true future support.
At Formation we give people lifetime access to our version of slack and to some commu…
I was looking at one of the OSP's that got a lot of buzz relative to the others (I think, I can't tell if it's real or just the people working on it promoting) called "Svelvet" https://www.linkedin.com/company/svelvet/
Only 2 out of 18 people listed have jobs now :(
So I think H2 2022 might be a really really bad placement year. The only redeeming factor though is if the market improves and it's now June 2023, no one will care about poor H22022 and it will be explained away as the market is now better! If the market remains this tough though and placement rates are 50% or less, I think people will stop going to bootcamps that require them to put their lives on hold and drop everything to attend.
I do. I think it's going to be much harder this year for bootcamp grads to get jobs without any additional advantages. For example, Ada Academy has built in 5 month internships, and I consider that an "additional advantage". Some programs have connections for apprenticeships with good companies. I also work with a small number of bootcamp grads who haven't gotten jobs yet at Formation and that gives people an "additional advantage" as well.
There are a lot of very strong entry level engineers from top CS schools who were laid off or had offers rescinded and they will be very competitive for those entry level jobs.
Hard !== Impossible! Grit, discipline, accountability, and time, and you will get a job... but these things are not easy when a lot of bootcamps take the foot off the gas the day you graduate and put you into "support mode".
You don't need a degree or even a bootcamp certificate to get a good job. Having relevant experience of any kind does help, but even something like accounting can be a good bridge.
The thing with Codesmith CIRR results are they have an interesting distribution curve with bunch of people on the low side, and a bunch of people on the high side. Their low side is still good, but there are many people who do Codesmith and make under $100K as well. That could still be a solid first job even if it's not the flashy too-good-to-be-true numbers people share.
The other problem with CIRR is it excludes stock and bonuses. A lot of those higher paid engineers are even HIGHER than they appear on CIRR because of that. On the other hand, Codesmith has a lot of alumni placed at Capital One and Amazon over the past year, which are very heavy on base salary and the bulk DOES show up in CIRR.
Anyways if…
If you have really good data-engineering experience to talk about, you should highly look into some career accelerator options like [Formation.dev](https://Formation.dev) (I'm the co-founder), Outco, Pathrise, Interview Kickstart, etc... These options are more part-time. Formation is completely scheduled around your availability. Most people we work with have day jobs and take about 6ish months to find a new job. If you have decent fundamentals already, transitioning to a SWE, or at least a SWE-like-data role is feasible at Formation at least. I can't speak to the other options for this, e.g. Pathrise is focused more on staying in the same vertical, but maybe Scalar would be useful too. Anyways look at these options as well to compare and constrast.
I post criticizing using CIRR as the "gold standard" often :D. But you should trust their reported numbers as reliable.
The issues lie more in 1. the way the data is presented and trying to understand the outcomes for someone like you versus someone with work experience already. 2. they borderline sketchy ways people can be excluded... however these are edge cases and not the bulk of the data. 3. data is too slow -> need more real time data on outcomes
All of that said., the reports trail graduation by 6 months, so the next report will be for H1 2022, which was a GOOD HIRING HALF. H2 2022 -> present has been terrible. Amazon has stopped hiring and Capital One has slowed down hiring for and those accounted for a large chunk of the > $150K salaries you see on there.
We won't know the implications of that until June 2023 at the earliest and you'll be done Codesmith by then! From people i…
1. You want to build (or apply) a framework for problem solving. There are different ones around, we created the "Formation Engineering Method" as one such framework.
2. You want to be extremely comfortable with basic concepts before moving on to harder ones. People jump too fast into LC Mediums to feel like they are making progress. Someone I worked with got a job at Google and did about 150 LC problems focusing on LC Easy the week before, for example.
It's not about how many problems you do but how you do the problems.
I run a program that trains people on their DS&A gaps, amongst other things, so I've seen hundreds of people progress from basic DS&A to a FAANG-level bar (i.e. passing a FAANG DS&A interview).
The analogy that most resonates with people is this. The best and most experienced handy person can solve a lot of household problems with simple, well used tools in their tool belt. They have built up years of problem solving ability through practice and experience and know the right tool to fix the right thing. Doing 500 LC problems with little experience is like becoming a handy person by going to Home Depot and buying a $1000 set of fancy tools that you don't really need. You want to become the handy person that can hang a painting with a hammer and a nail, rather have like a $200 laser leveler, three different bolts becaus…
Hi! Yeah we had kind of a flurry of applications over the holidays and currently so people are a little backlogged on doing calls. If you DM your husband's LinkedIn or email address and I can like look and make sure that everything's moving along
I agree more with this view than the OP as well. Codesmith has a very heavy emphasis on open source projects but for Codesmith students, I've looked through the code for 10 or so OSPs and these don't qualify as the open source commitments this commenter is mentioning. Codesmith OSPs are of the quality level of any other group bootcamp projects, sometimes better, sometimes worse. Significantly below the standard of true open source software. Look for projects with a lot of usage, lots of documentation (sometimes more than the code itself as it's critical for open source), well thought out processes for reporting bugs and making contributions (not a sentence but a whole process), and look for projects with paid contributors on them (via their companies or because the project is run by a funded company). MUI is a good one with lots of opportunity if you like React.
Yeah the top tier apprenticeships are EXTREMELY competitive. I am absolutely biased, as is everyone, and I can share my experience having run hundreds of interviews at FB for everything from interns to directors, having a team that has done thousands of interviews, and been involved with hiring and career progression decisions for hundreds of engineers at FB. Yeah our network is all FAANG, Google, Airbnb, Figma, Meta, Stripe, etc... and we talk all the time about this stuff! But it's very biased and most bootcamp grads are not aiming for these kinds of roles and your advice might apply better for them. I do think my argument about the neverending experience race for entry level positions is valid regardless of bias.
No bootcamp teaches from the ground up. You have to do a CS degree and at a top school that really starts a ground zero.
My first lecture in college started with "Forget everything you know, we will start with the concept of the number 1 and rebuild everything from there"
And 4 years later, I thoroughly understood how computers work at an electrical level, all the way to how distributed systems work, bit by bit.
I don't agree with not marketing yourself as junior and "faking it until you make it". I believe this attitude is why entry level jobs say they have four years of experience requirements sometimes now, because people with no experience are "faking it".
If you don't have experience, you don't have experience. You can't just make it up and hope that somehow you show up on the job like an experienced engineer. You will have holes and a lot to learn. Learning quickly and performing well might make the company not feel misled, but that doesn't happen in a lot of cases, hence the every growing entry level requirements to weed these people out.
I'm a big fan of apprenticeships at the top tech companies as a pathway for your first job. Clear expectations, expected ramp up, turns into great top tier first job.
This isn't advice for everyone, some people are exceptions and can get those full t…
I appreciate the perspective and thanks for sharing. For everyone reading though this is one perspective on the industry and there are a range of experiences and advice to consider before taking action.
Typically C-suite at 50+ person companies, who aren't founders, have long, 10+ years careers and usually much longer, usually at a few different companies, and they have seen some things along the way!
Your degree stops mattering after job 1, so it's largely irrelevant for becoming a CTO.
Being a CTO is way more than just coding and the management/leadership and strategy side is something I've seen in graduates of the most prestigious schools, like Stanford and MIT, so that piece might be something more about you as a person, that these schools tend to attract, that you need to have regardless of the degree or experience.
If the company just had layoffs you are relatively safe surprisingly. It's very common for companies to hire post layoffs even though it's a gray area.
Usually when there are mass layoffs, and entire teams are cut, a few things happen. First, top performers are moved to safe teams. Second, low performers across the company, some in important positions, are let go at the same time. It's easier for everyone to say you were laid off, rather than fired for performance.
When the dust settles, they often need to fill in some of those slots with new hires.
I know at least one person that has done recurse simultaneously with Formation, doesn't have to be either or, as Formation works entirely on your schedule.
Leetcode isn't niche and more than 5 million people have signed up for it.
Data structures and algorithms are the most fair and consistent way to evaluate skills at scale. People can have practical skills in thousands of different frameworks and languages and no company can fairly evaluate those coming in without coming up with small, practical problems, where you can demonstrate your problem solving and coding abilities... i.e. data structures and algorithms
The problem is that the way every bootcamp I've seen teaches people is really broken for teaching fundamental skills that the truly tech driven top companies need. Rather they focus on day to day practical skills that non-tech (e.g. banks) and 2nd/3rd tier tech companies need on day one of the job. That's where most graduates end up, so it makes sense! It takes the best graduates from the best bootcamps that I work for several mor…
This question has been coming up a lot more often recently. I would suggest looking into interview prep and career accelerators instead of bootcamps.
I'm the co-founder of Formation (.dev), which is one option, and other things to look into are Interview Kickstart, Outco, Pathrise, Scalar, Exponent, Coachable....a lot of very different options here!
Specifically at Formation, 11% of engineers who got jobs in 2022 were CS grads with no experience, so it's a smaller case for us but a reasonable option.
The idea is to work on bringing your fundamental skills to the top tier tech bar through adaptive practice, benchmarking, several sessions a week with senior engineers and tons of feedback, and mock interviews.
All of these programs cost the same as a bootcamp but are much more useful IMO than doing a bootcamp. I work with all kinds of people from all kinds of backgrounds, many who did…
I would start ASAP. We're seeing a little uptick and several offers even during the holidays! It's always easier to delay technical interviews than it is to predict when you'll get your foot in the door.
Hi, this sub is extremely Codesmith heavy, and there are several Codesmith students, alumni, and employees, who are extremely active on here, so it comes up a lot.
That said, I know many bootcamp founders, talk to some regularly, and I've worked/work with hundreds of bootcamp alumni, mostly from top bootcamps, so I have a unique view of many programs.
I have extensive knowledge of BloomTech/Lambda School as well and have a similar depth of understanding of their program but it's rarely talked about! I'm like the only person who read their trademark lawsuit legal documents in real time and discovered that they acquired a company in Florida to use that's company's trademark to bolster their claims - no journalist even reported on this.
I aim to be middle of the road on everything, which doesn't mean neutral, but it means talking about the pros and cons.
Codesmith alumni in particular a…