There are absolutely success stories for H1 2024 grads
The problem is that anecdotal success stories should not be used to judge any bootcamp.
I would need to spend some time chatting with someone, reviewing their LinkedIn, resume, and debrief their entire job hunt, to access the role the bootcamp played in the person's success and without that it's meaningless right now.
I'm really sad with the state of things right now. It's not doom and gloom but just reality. Pretending things are good is extremely harmful to those of you looking to put down 20 or 30K. But for the right people bootcamp are still a good choice... the set of people being the "right people" just being very small now.
I did a six month post graduation analysis for November and December 2023 Codesmith grads because I have decent data sources for them.
I'm not going to quote the placement rate I see in my data because it's so terrible compared to past estimates that I'm concerned and wanted to try to talk to them first. The way they are talking about outcomes does not correlate with what I see and if you are a prospective student, make sure to do your homework.
They had 5 cohorts graduate in Nov and Dec, and I could barely get into two digits of offers for those graduates. It's possible that there are massive amounts of ghosters who got jobs or other things and Codesmith please reach out if I'm missing something so I can correct.
I was looking into this to try to get a pulse on the market and for better or worse, Codesmith is the other place that shares enough raw data directly and indirectly to even try to compare and I've been monitoring it for some time now.
I have been talking about this for a while now and gotten attacked by a bunch of suspicious accounts. Fortunately Reddit suspended a dozen pro Codesmith accounts and two Codesmith moderators permanently from Reddit so hopefully we can discuss things reasonably instead of dealing with bad actors.
Again, if you work at Codesmith or are an alumni from end of 2023 feel free to offer your perspective too and clarify so we can progress the discussion constructively.
u/ludofourrage wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Michael, not every post on this channel needs you to be the first to answer, be turned into a post about yourself, and then be turned into a post about your grudge with codesmith.
It's really sad to see that this forum has been turned into a one man show and one man's opinion.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I respond quickly and often but look through every single post and see how often I'm first to reply.
It's not every single post, but it's more frequent.
Why don't you yell at /u/metalreflectslime because I think they comment on way more posts than me and are always there before I am.
As I said numerous times. More people who go to bootcamps is better for my company and that is a conflict of interest that I have to manage. The fact that I'm not bullish on bootcamps right now is a personal opinion not reflecting my company but it's the opposite.
I do agree I have a loud voice and I have a lot of experience to back my voice and that that can be intimidating for those without that to contribute. This is something I am aware of and manage. But I do have more experience and someone who just graduated a bootcamp with a few months work experience is welcome to share their advice and stories but it's hard to have a level debate.
You and Fenchy Dev have tons of experience and we can debate more level back and forth.
You are welcome to be very active on here too and share your view of bootcamp and disclose your bias that you run one of the bigger bootcamps.
u/frenchydev1 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Second this. Doesn't help people in here, the irony is seeing posts where someone comes in and asks a simple question about getting started down that path of coding and they actually get downvoted. This place isn't helpful to anyone
u/michaelnovatireplied·
This isn't a place to learn programming. There are tons of giant subreddits like /r/learnprogramming where people should go to get answers to those questions.
u/ludofourrage wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
It's great that you have already been reflecting on this. Since you want to lead the sub rather than merely moderating it, leading from the back would be welcome here.
Your point about having more experience than others on this sub sounds a bit elitist. You do on some aspects a
u/michaelnovatireplied·
My experience isn't just my own as a leading engineer at Meta for 8 years.
I work or worked with hundreds of people who graduated from about two dozen bootcamps from more recently to long ago, with a good number of people from 10 specific ones.
I genuinely think I have a unique in the world perspective on bootcamps that is useful to people.
Just because I have a unique and useful perspective doesn't mean it's better or worse than others.
We run into problems when people start spreading false statements, or not engaging in discussion that's about the truth and is just conjecture or actually false statements because of emotional responses.
u/Real_Sorbet_4263 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I never seen a better case of “road to hell is paved with good intentions” than this situation. You obviously care about this sub, but you’re killing it
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I mean I think there is a reality we have to face that bootcamps in their current form are not a viable way for people to change careers en masse in the market right now.
I made another comment about eight or nine programs that have had layoffs shutdowns for pullbacks and it is kind of going in that direction.
This sub isn't a pro bootcamp propaganda sub so I hope it's reflecting reality... and really is the worst it's been for this industry since inception in 2012.
u/ludofourrage wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
>I work or worked with hundreds of people who graduated from about two dozen bootcamps from more recently to long ago, with a good number of people from 10 specific ones.
since you're into data and truth seeking, and I am, too. I have a few follow-up questions for you:
- how man
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Yeah happy to give answers, these are to the best of my knowledge on the spot here and I didn't ask around to my team, but can if there are followups.
I don't know how closely we monitor Reddit specifically but it falls under "Socials" and isn't notable enough to stand out as its own source as far as I know. And we do not track down to the subreddit in our attribution models that I'm aware of.
Anecdotally, people who found us on Reddit surprisingly came more from the Leetcode sub where people are preparing for interviews and asking for help and they have referred to that as how they found us, or that they saw my official Reddit-sanctioned AMA that is aging now. Anecdotally a couple people have told me that they saw my posts in this sub and those people have been experienced engineers later in their careers, but they didn't mention discovering or being woo'd by them generally. The exception is Codesmith alumni have told me they agree with a lot of what I say and that made me seem credible to them in making their decision, but not the primary factor.
We do not consider this subreddit a customer acquisition channel no. I don't think our marketing person could name specific subreddits of interest without looking them up so she wouldn't say any specific sub was. As I said above, Reddit as a whole is an acquisition channel under Socials.
Partnerships.
No formal with any bootcamp.
Informal relationships with many, but define partnership.
Some have asked Sophie to speak to their alumni or speak at events. But that isn't an ongoing relationship and speakers generally aren't a partnership.
The closest thing that possibly comes to mind is we have a formal partnership with Taro. And we have or had formal partnerships with a number of non profits that support people in tech, like Women Who Code. And we have a very small partnership with The Last Mile to help justice impacted individuals prepare for interviews.
u/Real_Sorbet_4263 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
No no no, I’m not arguing the substance of your comment. It’s you’re sucking all the oxygen in the room.
Have you ever been in a design review and hold yourself back to let other people speak? Have you ever have an idea in a meeting but said something like “I have an idea but I
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Ah ok, yeah I take it as feedback and see what you are saying.
I do need to write shorter responses as well. A number of comments are voice to text where I talk something out for like 15 seconds and then post.
u/Maelstrom116 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Of course, I went to Codesmith
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Codesmith had about 60 to 70 graduates in March and about 4 months post grad, I see 5 to 8 offers? Would you agree that's a reasonable estimate or disagree?
My main argument below is that for those handful of people, Codesmith was probably a very good decision. If we could identify those people beforehand and try to get them to to a tiny specialized Codesmith program, that would be amazing.
For a random person reading this subreddit though, they need more insight into what's going on, and if the bootcamps don't provide it and aren't here to engage and talk about it, then I feel the need to help you all.
Codesmith published a report and included it in their official curriculum docs showing 53 offers accepted in "April-May 2024".
So they clearly have more data insights into the struggles people are having they aren't sharing.
A coupke of people who work/worked there and have agreed, have asked me to keep pushing for this.
I'm asking for reasonableness showing both the good and the bad, not just the good and not just the bad.
u/Maelstrom116 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
It’s tough to say but I think trying to nail down a statistic is reasonable. I wanted placement rates on the latest report as well.
We were about 23 people, with three accepted offers I know of. I recognize my background is not the same, bachelors and masters, and a career chan
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Thanks for adding context! Yeah I comment for everyone reading (who have less context) and I wasn't commened on you specifically.
u/Accomplished-Fee3050 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
i feel like one of the self taught courses like 100devs might be a better choice before shelling out a bunch of money for a saturated career? any input?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Well big fan of using free resources yeah. The problem with free communities is most people don't last. A lot of people drop off despite how active they appear short term. But if you can find a dedicated crew of people it can be very effective.