An ~18 month journey to SUCCESS!!

18 of Michael's comments in this thread · View thread on Reddit ↗

u/diamond_hands_suck wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

Which bootcamp did you attend? I’m exploring part-time ones as well.

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 4, 2023 DELETED · archived copy · edited

Likely Codesmith based on the current circumstances

u/CI-AI wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

I love the part about meditation and being kind to yourself! I feel like that’s an often overlooked process of going through an arduous process of job searching. Also love the continuous learner mindset you exhibit as well, it really showcases how instrumental that is to landing

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 4, 2023

You see the same thing in the OSP playbook instructions. Post on Reddit, share with your cohort, get cohort-mates to comment and/or ask questions as if they don't know you. "Wow this project is amazing, can't wait to use it!", "What do you think about adding Y next?" I have 3 people (either employees or alumni - assuming they are being truthful) in the past week independently frame this as "a culture of toxic positivity". I'm not trying to be a downer here and a grumpy person in the room, I'm just asking people be more transparent and open in their posts instead of doing the OSP playbook.

u/CI-AI wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

I think you are though. I am not nearly as active on Reddit as you are, and have recently just gotten more involved mostly to see what’s going on in the industry and see cute pug photos. I understand this is a marketing channel for your business and I respect that, but you can ab

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 4, 2023 · edited ★ FEATURED

Who said this was a marketing channel for my business? I've explicitly said otherwise very transparently so you are making false assumptions or calling me out as a sketchy liar? I have a business motivation to encourage people to go bootcamps, because then there are more people who go to Formation in 2-3 years. So I assure you this commentary is not "business motivated". My entire life's mission after leaving Facebook and coming out of semi-retirement afterwards, is to address inequality in tech and I see day in and day out how people who are from underrepresented backgrounds who thought this was an honest industry get passed over with their 1 YOE for people putting down 2 YOE for their 3 week project and getting interviews and that's not fair either.

u/CI-AI wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

Just want to say you absolutely have a right to succeed, like anybody else. It’s just not the time and place to comment like this. Celebrate the successes and recognize that a rising tide raises all ships. We both see eye to eye on many things, people shouldn’t lie and we want

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 4, 2023

I'm glad we agree on that, thanks for the reminder of why we're here.

u/wulfcastle17 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

This! Michael you run a damn business which charges more than most bootcamps! Why are you here in this space? Why not go to cscareerquestions instead? This whole shtick you and Sophie run about “championing diversity” is fooling no one. You took a bunch of vc money and are target

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 4, 2023

"People like you", I don't know you and you clearly don't know me. Sophie and I have had $0 salaries since day one. Sophie has pledged paying forward gains she makes from founder stock in the future, if any. You don't know our leads investors, like Kapor Capital, you want to shit on them too - THE preeminent investor in companies championing diversity? A16Z is indeed a huge, classic VC, and that's a fair call out, but you don't know us or our investors and you might be surprised how some of the biggest critics in the industry have invested in us after spending a significant amount of time getting to know us and what we do. I was bullied my entire life for being a "loser" and a "fat kid", and given my lunch money to "people like you", and I won't be bullied by you. I'm here authentically and confident in who I am, my strengths and my weaknesses, and what I stand for.

u/wulfcastle17 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

Every single path is a business you fucking fool! College, bootcamps, holy moly nice guy Michael’s “fellowship”. They’re all businesses that have the primary objective to make money. A good proper CS degree from Columbia university that you all circle jerk to costs over 200k you

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 4, 2023 · edited ★ FEATURED

Like I said, I'm confident because facts can't be manipulated and misinformation can't be backed up. 1. Codesmith admissions staff during an info call 2 weeks ago said the average cohort size is down 25% to "25 people" 2. Will Sentance shared data in an info session last week that Q1 2023 median salaries were $110K and Q2 2023 median salaries were $115K, that's a huge drop. 3. They had reported layoffs of up to 10% of staff a few weeks ago. There website staff was updated and you can use the way back machine if you want to compare. 4. The CTRI cohort was cancelled for the rest of 2024 and after the layoffs, it's possible other people are looking for jobs too. Now about Formation: 1. We don't have any program costing anywhere near $20K, you might be talking about ISAs, loans or interest that hit that much, but the underlying cost is much lower than that. We move fast and things change. This is as of Oct 2023. 2. Formation does not provide any kind of training or teaching whatsoever, so I don't know why you are comparing it to Columbia. No one teaches a single thing and there are no classes. Formation isn't for everyone and I have never claimed it was, so we work with people who spend time to understand how it works and think it's right for them, and if people join for the wrong reasons we try to identify it early and part ways. We aren't a "leetcode class" at all. 3. I can't give specific examples for privacy reasons but Formation is a place the vast majority go AFTER Codesmith, or while working at Codesmith full time, I know less than 3 people who have chosen Formation over Codesmith and I know less than 3 people that have chosen Codesmith over Formation. Your skepticism of business and capitalism is fine but you can do it in a nicer way that's not so mean and swearing and cursing and without saying a bunch of misinformation.

u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

It's sad people can't just be happy for others who get a job in this environment. Sub is leaning heavy into an us vs. them mentality and it's not healthy. People being conspiratorial about everything, assumptions flying everywhere, previous interactions and discussions on the sub

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 4, 2023 · edited ★ FEATURED

Reddit is very strict about doxing, and a number of people who I think Codesmith deeply trusts are less bought in than they think and things get out, I have to strike a balance between presenting these facts and not doxing or revealing anyone's identities. It's confusing as heck yeah... but Reddit is completely anonymous and people should be going to authentic sources if they want actionable information.

u/LongjumpingFan9447 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

I would do either program personally but they are different obviously. I do not think they need to be compared The average salary dropped for the beginning of this year but is now \~apparently\~ higher than that ($122,400 here) https://www.codesmith.io/blog/tech-industry-insight

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 5, 2023 ★ FEATURED

There are about 5% of people that might overlap is my estimate. So if you don't have 1 year as a SWE or a full time job that will be 1 year by the time you are job hunt ready then we won't even accept you and will reject you, I ironically recommend Codemsith often for ambitious people who are trying to move a little too fast but don't have that yet. If we reject you and you spend a significant time talking to the team and we do think Formation is a good fit for your goals and your goals likely aren't 200K job in that case, we may accept you or wait-list you because we limit the number of people in that bucket. These are also the people who might show up in this subreddit in the very limited talk that there is about Formation (and also why stuff in this sub is likely not representing the typical person at Formation). Our reporting is clear on what YOE means in that context and it excludes internships and contract work so people might show up in that bucket for reporting but they actually have SOME complicated experience equivalent to the minimum bar to be accepted. But other than that I really don't see anyone overlap. Maybe Codesmith feels differently and that's why all these people attack me about being here to sleazily steal students. I use my real name so people can judge my credibility and biases in interpreting my comments - something I wish more people did - and not recruit anyone for anything.

u/Competitive-Feed-359 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

Report it, if found to be true, those accounts will be suspended/banned

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 5, 2023 · edited

Accounts tend to not get suspected for vote manipulation alone, just things like harassment. Vote manipulation is handled by algorithms that learn to ignore the votes when other people look at the post. If people are systematically upvoting through a fraudulent scheme or posting a link somewhere and asking for upvotes, it's impossible for Reddit to tell on their side 100%.

u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

> This sub also seems to be brigaded by Computer Science grads spilling over from cscareerquestions (theres several in here) It is and I understand why they're insecure about bootcamps. If I got a CS degree I'd probably be just as insecure about bootcamps. The thought of spendin

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 5, 2023

I don't know if you don't reply to my DMs because you don't want to talk (which is totally fine) but in case it's stuck in Message Requests, check it out!

u/ResourceDismal5220 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

yeah and as a result of you being "bullied", you decide to bully others. Way to continue the vicious cycle.

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 5, 2023

Can you share the example of bullying? This post I'm replying to was deleted or removed and was reported for harassment.

u/ResourceDismal5220 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

I mostly ignore the stuff on this subreddit, merely reading the hyperbole from all sides. First, I feel like I should address the fact that everyone just assumes anytime anyone says any thing remotely positive about a bootcamp that it's a paid ad for Codesmith. I bet you all woul

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 5, 2023 · edited

I agree with a lot with this other than the way you characterized me and clarify that I would never dox anyone on here, one of my friends leads a company entirely about safety online and she is an industry leader figurehead on this and I've learned through her how harmful it is.

u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

Nothing personally against you, but generally I don't like to treat reddit as an ongoing chat app. If someone DMs me for advice that's usually just a one-off, but I'd rather leave the more debate type engagement limited to comments.

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 5, 2023 · edited

Ok, I understand, and I appreciate that you judge my posts by the evidence I provide, challenge me (because I am very explicitly vague with certain things right now) and I love that you do that and would love if you keep doing that. If some day you see solid evidence revealed somewhere of something I talked about vaguely in the public, ask yourself if it's possible I knew about that in my vague comments and was trying signal that the best I could while maintaining my integrity.

u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

Michael you can't keep up this whole mysterious veil of "I know horrible things but I can't tell". Codesmith is not that special. It's a bootcamp just like Hack Reactor, the only difference is the OSP vs. the student projects Hack Reactor does. They're all teaching some slight va

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 6, 2023

I missed this, but I commented above on another thread to you, but yeah I'm interpreting your tone as you think I'm making up 'mysterious things' that don't exist in order to cast a negative view. I assure you that's not correct, but since I can't prove anything because of agreements and my integrity you are also TOTALLY RIGHT to call it out and question it. In having good discourse back and forth for a while, I would personally appreciate if your tone was more about the evidence than the intentions though. Calling out, 'no direct evidence of Y' is different from 'oh so you have some magical evidence, of course you do'.

u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

I wouldn't necessarily say making up, but overselling for sure. People read all the ominous claims and their imaginations run wild. You do a morning algo, you sit through a couple of coding lectures, you pair program for a few hours, and that's your average day at Codesmith. It's

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 6, 2023 · edited

We're talking a different category of issues here and I'm judging by comparables to other companies, again completely my opinions and judgements which you SHOULD BE skeptical about, but we're not talking about the curriculum, OSPs, OSLabs, etc..., but more fundamental things.

u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

I don't much care for the back office issues. It can be the worst company structure in the world, but as long as outcomes hold it's okay with me. On the other hand, you can have priests and nuns running a competing bootcamp, but if people can't get jobs what's the point? I think

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 7, 2023

Integrity is the point. I'm not talking about those kinds of issues. Watch the We Work drama on Apple TV or something for a breadth of other types of issues for example that companies can have.

u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 7, 2023 ★ FEATURED

RE: Outcomes, I summarized my threads a bit to respond to that. So what has been publicly stated is that average cohort size is down 25% from full capacity, people are being accepted until immediately before a start date, on their first interview, resulting in reported "lower bar" (a handful of reports from more "advanced" students who feel like they are working with more people were let in later, completed an accelerated pre-work, haven't been working for months in the Codesmith ecosystem before, and are struggling to "write basic code" as it was put) I don't have numbers on this but it tracks with the trend that Hack Reactor has done by making a "beginner" track (the 19 week one) as the enrollment of advanced people is down there too. Placements are at not as strong companies as in the past. Their own data that was shown at an info session, albeit with the caveat of the presenter saying something to the effect of 'I don't know if I'm allowed to show this but I will and hopefully it doesn't end up Reddit', that their own tracking of mid-level placements was down about 15% or so this year. I still don't agree with their definitions of mid-level, but even their own tracking showed people taking "lower" roles in 2023. The non public data here is that placements are shifting to geographically distributed smaller and non-tech companies, agencies and contract jobs. Far fewer people receiving stock, RSUs, options. From second hand but reliable data: in the past 2-3 months there has allegedly been 1 Capital One, 0 Meta, 0 Google, 0 Apple, And it's not the market... I've seen 2 Capital One, 2 Google, 2 Meta, 3 Apple placements at my company during that time - which is lower than we would like too - but also numerous more people finishing up onsites. All of these were for "mid level" roles, so it's not a fair comparison to Codesmith grads - as they are aiming for entry level roles at these companies, other than C1 - but I'm making a point about the market. The summary here is that just going off of public info with a sprinkling of inside info about placements, there is enough to warrant a "hey everyone things are changing at Codesmith, ask questions and make sure it's a good fit for you right now in end of 2023 instead of listening to arguments on year old information. go to info sessions and ask these questions directly. figure out HOW people get placed because those strategies might not work in this market, even if the past outcomes were great" And I keep saying this over and over, because on Reddit, one off success posts don't change the narrative above that I feel is fairly clear and even more clear with non-public info. AGAIN, NOT SAYING IT'S THE END OF CODESMITH HERE, I TOLD TWO PEOPLE NOW THIS WEEK TO GO THERE! I'm just saying understand how it works and join for the right reasons.

u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

u/michaelnovati replied · Oct 15, 2023 DELETED · archived copy ★ FEATURED

/u/InTheDarkDancing, enough time has passed now so one of the examples of things I'm going to be talking about more is their "culture management" and how Codesmith strategically manages the culture (e.g. not just the slogans but internal processes to identify and manager any signs of negativity). It's not just a goal but it's someone's actually paid job to do.