Both of these are solid bootcamp programs, I would also consider Launch School Capstone in a similar bucket.
I've been rabbit holing this weekend a bit on Codesmith because I received some interesting information a while ago and additional information last week that I finally looked at, and I may or may not continue recommending them in the future. I'm going to wait for their H2 2022 CIRR results - so see if the information they present aligns with the information I received or not before I make a call here.
They are in additional doing some very shady stuff with OSLabs, Parallels, and Codesmith. I received evidence directly from an employee, documented, that 'OSLabs will sign letters of reference for 3-4 months of work for a 3 week OSP project'. While I have long complained about the majority of people exaggerating their experience on resumes and LinkedIns - despite Codesmith's documentation telling people to not lie - but hearing the words right out of a full time employees mouth was a bit jarring.
In addition, OSLabs is an independent charity that legally has to be very disconnected from Codesmith and Codesmith is very careful to make it clear they are not involved with OSLabs, however the above statement raised some flags. There is also far too much overlap between the founders/board members of Codesmith, Parallels, and OSLabs. I have a lot more to say about this but I don't have time right now and it's pretty serious so I don't want to say it publicly without multi primary sources of evidence.
u/SUPERSAM76 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
What exactly is OSLabs? Is it free?
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
OSLabs is a charity that owns and manages all of the OSPs that Codesmith students work on for 3 weeks and they end up being the highlight of your experience at Codesmith on your resume - assuming you have no prior SWE experience. OSLabs collects donations and pays mentors to review open source projects. Which happen to be the same open source projects that Codesmith people pay $20K to do during the OSP phase of Codesmith... hence why it's so important that there be a clear line between the two entities or it could look like OSLabs is funneling tax deductible donations from people to mentor Codesmith students who are paying Codesmith $20K each.
OSLabs has full control over all the OSP projects and is responsible for choosing students to work on them and not a single person at Codesmith has the ability to influence these decisions or that would be a conflict of interest (people tell me that this is not the case, but it's supposed to be this way)
Anyone can work on the open source projects but I don't know anyone that has tried without being a Codesmith student, if you have **let me know!** The quality of the projects is really poor - I've reviewed numerous repos and most projects have issues that would make people unhireable (e.g. console.log a plain text password for no reason) so I wouldn't recommend anyone work on them anyways - there are much better open source projects to work on if you want to go that route.
u/Addyroll wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
As someone that is planning to do CS Prep and eventually the immersive program, you’re worrying me. I’ve been drawn to CS because I have a couple friends that are alumni and it seems to be the only bootcamp that is offering what I’m looking for. What is your bootcamp recommendati
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Codesmith can be a good choice. It's the #1 choice for super ambitious people who are already decent programmers. The alumni I know are amazing, hard working, and great people who want to have a big impact on the world. If you want to put your head down, do what you are told and exceed all of the requirements/expectations, it's the place to go and you'll be happy.
The only problem I have with Codesmith overall is misrepresenting mid-level and senior outcomes (and by relation, exaggerating the value of the OSP projects that they claim make you a mid-level engineer).
The reason I would consider not recommending them is if they pull some shenanigans with H2 2022 outcomes because the raw data I've been shown is not good and if they don't acknowledge this openly and transparently and continue to try to frame them as Codesmith's best in industry results and keep up the attitude, then I will consider changing that recommendation.
u/urkiddingm3 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
im also curious about your thoughts on hack reactor? those ISAs are so enticing haha
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Hack Reactor 12 week covers roughly similar materials to Codesmith. Codesmith has as a higher entry bar and 90%+ graduation rate as a result. HR has way more people drop out/get kicked out and not graduate (75 to 80% "graduate") but it's still okay.
Note about the ISAs - read the fine print. You can usually defer payments for some amount of time (I believe 3 month after graduation), but it's not forever (if you have a job making the minimum salary in a current job or any non-tech job).
u/urkiddingm3 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
nah, just remarking on reality! its wayyy more suspect to me how many people in tech come from upper middle class families than how many night school students manage to break out of poverty
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Codesmith and HR are 9am to 8pm M-F and 9am to 3pm S. Rithm is 9am to 6pm M-F. You need a certain ability and support in your life to manage these schedules and it's easier with savings, a supportive partner/parents, no children, no chronic medical issues, no mental health challenges, etc...
u/urkiddingm3 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
that certainly isn't ideal, although maybe they rationalize that 3-4 month claim as it being the length of the entire Codesmith immersive program? i feel like this would be more of a red flag to me if i didnt recently graduate from a top 10 engineering school where i was exposed
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
It is because it's the length of Codesmith and the argument is the skills you build before and after are all part of the skills that go into the OSP. This is bs because
1. People choose a very specific tech to work on in the OSP and the rest of Codesmith is breadth across many topics
2. People are told to ALSO PUT THEIR OTHER PROJECTS in another section of their resume - essentially double, triple, quandruple or in one case I've seen 5X counting their time at Codesmith.
That said. It's not done in some super sketchy way to teach you how to lie cheat and steal. It's indeed a good program, the people are great, the alumni do well on the job, it's more of a "optimization strategy" that people see as a means to an ends.
I see both sides and I don't discourage people from joining just because of this. But I do think it's critical for you to know HOW it works and not just see six figures and qualitative phrases like "life changing" and go all in. If the HOW feels good to you, it's an excellent choice and you will probably succeed!
u/urkiddingm3 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
you have to pay 1.5x the regular tuition if you defer it :/
u/michaelnovatireplied·
It's definitely a lot, but it's comparable to any other loan you take out. The difference is if you don't have a job at all, you don't pay so it's more peace of mind you won't end up in collections if the job market tanks even more - and you might pay a bit for that peace of mind.
u/Diarrhea-kun wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
5x would line up with Codesmith's solo, scratch, iteration, OSP, and reinforcement projects. I don't think I've ever seen any grads list every single one of their projects, but good on the grad for feeling proud enough in their work to list all of them, I guess.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
The resume I was referring to was of this structure (generalized to hide any way of identifying and shifted the dates a bit, but it listed only years - following Will S and Annie Z's Resumes):
Senior Software Engineer
EXPERIENCE:
Software Engineer at CS Engineering - 2022 - present
Software Engineer at OSP - 2021 - present
PROJECTS:
Scratch - 2022
Solo - 2022
Iteration - 2022
u/witheredartery wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Cna you please analyse this bootcamp called acciojob in India for me
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Sorry, I don't know them :( I fortunately/unfortunately know a lot about Codesmith because it's a snowball effect of it being discussed so much in this subreddit and then people send me stuff - usually anonymously because I get a lot of pushback from Codesmith insiders in comments and they want to help me and thank me for explaining things more the way they are.
I know a decent amount about Rithm (I know the founder) and HR (I know a number of alumni), BloomTech, but not every single program
u/lawschoolredux wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I’ve become skeptical of Rithm: they didn’t even bother to release their 2022 outcomes, and a recent thread said most recent Rithm grads are still unemployed.
I imagine in this case it’ll be better to learn the fundamentals then go with Hack Reactor or Codesmith.
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Rithm is a place, similar to Launch School, that keeps the cohorts small and gives people a lot of attention. So it's a place for quality of education and time with teachers. However, quality !== job and Codesmith might be a better place for ambitious hustlers who will do push to find a way to get a job. Case in point: Rithm grads proudly post about their graduation on LinkedIn and get cheered on by their friends - Codesmith grads mostly hide the fact they went to Codesmith and half of their resume is 3 weeks of project work written up in 6 bullet points.
u/True-Cloud-2324 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Congrats on graduating and landing your first job! Would you say that the majority of those who graduated in your cohort were able to land a job within 6 months? The latest outcomes report only shows data from the first half of 2022, so I'm curious if these numbers might have shi
u/michaelnovatireplied·
The numbers have shifted. The numbers I've seen are closer to 50% for H2 2022 and too soon to tell for H1 2023 (very roughly, non official, from people with direct access to outcomes). But this is a reflection of the market and not changes at Codesmith or Codesmith getting worse or anything.
u/urkiddingm3 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Elaborate!
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Hack4LA is one of the stronger places!
u/True-Cloud-2324 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Is this 50% within 6 months of graduation? If so, that's very concerning... and would definitely influence my decision on whether or not to pursue Codesmith (or any bootcamp for that matter).
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
We need to see official numbers but maybe just ask them and if they don't give you a clear answer that would be more concerning too! I don't think the rate is concerning but just the transparency so you can feel good about the program.
The market is improving so my bet is they will say this: "We haven't finalized placements for H2 2022 but it was a much tougher market and results were worse but we are seeing placements improving every day now"
u/lawschoolredux wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Would you say HR 12 week (or any bootcamp, really) is still worth it in this climate?
Or wait a year or two?
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I'm going through a dilemma right now myself and I can't give a well sourced, confident answer. I'm focusing on Codesmith because week after week I just get so much stuff sent to me, I know the ins and outs better than any program.
At the end of the day, there's no 12 week program that can turn anyone into a really good industry engineer. I see so so so many people, covering all backgrounds and there are patterns between successful ones and unsuccessful ones but each individual is a unique human that is unpredictable!
I can say it's extremely hard to get entry level jobs right now and there are no shortcuts, loopholes, "get rich quick" ways of doing it.
I can also say that THE JOB IS THE BEGINNING, not the end. This is one of Codesmith's "dirty secrets" - people get highly paying first jobs - that they exaggerate their experience to get - but if you follow the alumni down the road, some people do really well and a number struggle immensely to keep up and then job hop from mid level job to mid level job. Codesmith has like 2000 alumni and 1-2 dozen alumni at Google now and 1-2 dozen at Facebook. Hackbright has like 1600 alumni (on LinkedIn) and 2+ dozen alumni at Google and 1-2 dozen at Facebook. Hackbright's initial outcomes are not nearly as strong but a few years down the road they are in the same place.
Anyways, some random ramblings from my notes, but the point is that bootcamps need to focus far less on the salary of the initial outcome and far more on celebrating people launching long term careers in the right direction. Codesmith/and other top bootcamps aren't so much a career accelerator to replace 4+ years of CS education as they are a shot of adrenaline for your career that gives you a short term boost and then you either have to build the muscle yourself or keep shooting up with adrenaline to survive.
u/mathaneus wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Sorry, I know this thread is a little older now. Still, I would like your perspective on how you rank 2 year post-bacc computer science degree programs relative to programs like Codesmith, Hackbright, Rithm, and Launch School + Capstone. I am specifically referring to programs li
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I'm biased from my FAANG-ish background but I think the ideal is still a top tier CS program (top 10 or 20 from US World News). After that I'm not sure because those programs are the sure things where recruiters are lining up to hire people. Anything else and it takes a little bit of luck and determination.
Of the ones you mention, Launch School capstone is the most selective and has consistently strong placement rates.There are a lot of people going to WGU but it's unclear that that will result in jobs or not. People primarily go to get a degree for cheap but I suspect they also do other things and are a part of other programs too to get jobs
u/mathaneus wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
That is interesting given that computer science degrees get through HR desks but most people I have ever asked in real world tech networking events have never heard of Launch School. They have all looked puzzled every time I've ever. brought it up in conversation. Even explaining
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
I would make sure the post bacc program is legit and not run by a 3rd party that has a bad reputation.
But in terms of which one is better? It depends on you and how you learn and what's a good fit for you so I would focus on finding a program where the day to day work is aligned with what you feel is effective. For example, I did a degree but practical hands on learning works a lot better for me and the most valuable things I learned were from side projects!