u/smells_serious wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
The difference between you and anyone else looking for information in this sub is that you have something to gain as a co-founder of Formation.dev. If you were just another student or something else, I think you would come across a lot more authentic, but I SEE you... your thumb
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
Sorry you feel that way, and I appreciate the candid feedback. I'm genuinely here to help people and give advice.
Having worked with hundreds of people, maybe half or so(?) who have done bootcamps (of all kinds) years ago (and some recently) I do feel like I have a perspective that is useful for people.
Being the engineer at Facebook with the most raw output in the entire company, and being at the principal E7 level (highest leveled 1.5% of engineers at the company) I have a perspective that might be useful for people.
I spend all my time on Formation and certainly have biases, but I also do feel my perspective can be valuable and I'm here with my real name, for open and candid discussions, and I genuinely appreciate pushback and discussion.
I haven't been to any bootcamps myself, that's where I also appreciate hearing other people's perspectives and hopefully together there is a lot of perspectives for people reading to consider.
I can give a separate answer about CIRR. You mentioned you are at Codesmith. People talk and I know their CEO was speaking about me and my comments about CIRR. Additionally, some accounts attacked me on Reddit and told me that anyone who criticizes CIRR is a scam artist, which is quite extreme from the balanced pro and con approach I'm intending to present... and if I'm missing the mark, I will take feedback and try to improve. When I say something great about Codesmith, no one comment-replies me. When I say something bad about Codesmith, at least one comment reply criticizing me. Codesmith is one of the best bootcamps and I've said that like fifty times privately and publicly and suggested a couple dozen people to go there. But anyways,
My response to CIRR and numbers are:
1. 100% if you don't have something perfect it doesn't mean you don't do anything at all. There are problems with CPI, problems with lots of metrics. People should be critical of metrics, but it doesn't mean they don't have a purpose.
2. We're trying to figure out how to talk about outcomes, it's genuinely hard, and our peers (Interview Kickstart, Pathrise, and Outco) all have different ways to talk about numbers, none of which are CIRR-like. We literally have someone from a bootcamp and a bit of experience go to become a mid level SWE at Capital One, and then have someone else with several years of SWE at Capital One go to Plaid. We want to capture this relative nature of what Formation does, rather than try to present absolute numbers. We haven't solved it yet.
3. I'm making bootcamp comparisons because I need to make it very clear to people we are not a bootcamp and are a completely different thing and that I am here to give advice about starting out in the industry. Again \~80 to 90% of people at Formation have worked in the industry as full blown SWEs for 1-3+ years. The stats at bootcamps are the inverse.