I feel like a lot of bootcamps say that. ' Our program is 70 hours a week and it's so intense it's like a year of school'
Codesmith's former head of instruction would tell people in their career prep lecture that their "open source product" that they spend 3-4 weeks on was 'so intense' it was the equivalent of '4 months of mid level engineering work'. A student told me someone challenged him on this during the lecture and the instructor got so offended and upset he ranted for 10 minutes and then had to 'take a break' before resuming.
It's absolutely wild what these programs are telling people and it should be called out for discussion in the open so both sides can be heard, because I wouldn't assume the bootcamps are doing this to scam people, they might just be delusional and out of touch with reality... many bootcamp instructors haven't worked in industry and don't even know!
RE: INTERNSHIPS
Possibly, but you are competing with people who had FAANG internships, so it's tough. I would consider enrolling in a Masters (or having the intention of doing it) and then applying for 2026 (summer but possible spring) top tier internships RIGHT NOW through NOVEMBER and try to land one, and convert it full time job and 'drop' the masters program.
RE: CODESMITH
You heard about more layoffs since like this week? Or just general layoffs?
They have had numerous both layoffs and voluntary departures without 1-1 replacement yeah but there are hardly any people left.
They were advertising for a part time program coordinator offering below minimum wage in some cities like Seattle so it doesn't seem like they are replacing those senior staff with high paying roles.
A recent review from a staff member on [Blind](http://www.teamblind.com/company/Codesmith/review/R_kgSHMi_K) s…
Sadly many bootcamps have closed, paused, and the ones surviving have had had many layoffs or pullbacks.
Launch School continues to update stuff, but a lot of the previous "best bootcamps" haven't been updating materials in a long time, and their projects are awful. Their marketing tells you their projects are incredible and get people jobs and the reality is that that is not true for most people who get jobs. And the people who gets jobs, or maybe lied about their projects to get jobs requiring experience, don't always have the best career trajectories too, a number of people don't make it a year on the job, job hop a lot, etc...
Bootcamps are not a supplement for a 'practical experience', they currently mostly work for super ambitious people with relevant professional experience to hustle their way into a job, and then keep the hustle going for years until they have enough experience…
It's interesting that when you zoom out and look at without bias from marketing, it sounds absurd that a 4 month long program can cover the materials of a CS degree.
The reason bootcamps worked was that companies needed supply and scraped the bottom of the barrel hoping that they find some diamonds in the rough (because of the amount of training, not the natural abilities of the people themselves)
But no one in the industry ever thought bootcamps worked to actually teach people things.
I used to support that program philosophically but someone protectively told me that in the cohort cohort that graduated 4 months ago, they thought only one person got a job, and it's possible they dont have full visibility, but it sounded like it was at best a tiny number of people who got jobs and given that the program is benchmarked on getting people jobs paying $65K+.
Four months isn't that long yet to draw conclusions but clearly they didn't have major partnerships set up to hire grads and I don't see how anyone would get hired with zero experience and zero technical background.
The main instructor was also laid off and the current instructor has another job according to LinkedIn and they were asking for mentors paying them $25 an hour (which means your mentors are being paid less than the jobs the program is supposed to create which makes no sense... You're telling people that t…
Many new accounts get flagged yeah but some are like hard removed and some are just flagged.
I pay close attention to new accounts that we allow to post.
Lighthouse Labs (one of Canada's largest coding bootcamps) files for bankruptcy August 1st, 2025 - along with its parent company.
SOURCE: [https://brileyfarber.com/engagements/uvaro/?utm\_source=chatgpt.com](https://brileyfarber.com/engagements/uvaro/?utm_source=chatgpt.com)
Their website redirects to that page now.
I don't know much about them so discuss in the comments if you are impacted.
1. Ask them how many people complete the program and if you have to pay anything back if you don't complete it.
2. This strongly sounds like their hiring partners pay them fees that effectively pay for your tuition. So if you don't get hired through a hiring partner and they don't get paid any money, it sounds like someone has to pay for it and that person is you.
NOTHING IS FREE.
\+1 supply and demand.
Coding bootcamps specifically only work when there is more demand, not enough supply from more popular sources, and they can in weeks/months provide more supply whereas Stanford can't.
The problem is that a number of bootcamps thought all the success was THEM and not the market, and it went to their head.
When the market inverted and too much supply, no demand, some of those bootcamps didn't make changes.
It's completely shocking to me and why I've been so vocal calling them out when I see that.
1 YOE is taking a long time right now overall in the market and at Formation but I don't have exact averages because each person has different commitments and goals and it's not meaningful to average all people.
Additionally, we have people that had 1 YOE that joined like 2 years ago that it took 2 years to get a job... but the market when they joined was different then. So it's even harder to try to average people who started at different time because the market has been changing. It's like a bootcamps touring 2023 CIRR number when they very well know things are different now... I feel that kind of thing is misleading.
So to help advise I would need to know:
1. what is the 1-2 years of experience and what kind of company?
2. have you been promoted yet?
3. are you getting interviews either directly from recruiters or from applications?
If you work at a solid company, commit fully to F…
Yeah would consider trying to have a job leveraging your strengths but in tech or a tech company to try to bridge the gap, and learn on the job or leverage internal resources to learn programming.
I guess I've been overkill then documenting and organizing hundreds of pieces of evidence over three years for the statements I make on Reddit about Codesmith and other bootcamps.
Maybe I am crazy then or at a minimum I'm drastically underselling my arguments if you don't know where they are coming from.
Let's just say that I'm not commenting so much about Codesmith because of any reason other than the overwhelming amount of documentation I have that Codesmith gaslights me and others about.
Like I said, I honestly have no problem if your opinion is that I'm clinically insane and you yell that loud and clear.
You just can't state it as a fact.
"lol bro is actually clinically insane"
This is a statement that negative impacts my reputation.
And it's provably false and you said you don't want to put the effort into a paper trail to back that claim.
You can say "In my opinion, this guy is clinically insane" and I would be totally fine with that!
Then don't comment here making stuff up. Research what libel is because you are admitting to it - making false statements as facts with the intention of discrediting me and admitting to not putting in the effort to research those statements.
If you don't want to read anything then make it clear these are your unproven "opinions" and not facts.
You also have an extensive Reddit history on many different topics so this wouldn't apply to you. Not everyone who criticizes me is a bad guy. I'm saying there are like a dozen or more accounts that ONLY comment on Codesmith stuff and my posts and have been suspended over time as they get caught doing something not allowed on Reddit.
Almost all of the older "AMAs" in the Codesmith sub have entirely deleted, collapsed, and suspended commenters. It takes months sometimes but eventually get caught.
I'm not saying Codesmith itself is organizing this. I have a written statement from their CEO that Codesmith she talked directly to the leaders and their founder (has explicitly decided to not engage with any of my content) and lead advisor (doesn't have a Reddit account but might make one) don't use Reddit and never engage with me, so I have to assume it's not them. If evidence came my way the…
How do you feel about AI deep research of my entire Reddit history that disagrees with you and says that people calling me insane based on my Reddit activity are defaming me?
No, accounts that have zero comment and post history that come out of nowhere attacking me generally are though and Reddit has been pretty good at wiping them out over time as the people create more fake accounts with the same forensic fingerprinting.
I'm not going to assume anything about who you are, I can only act on evidence, not theories. I'm just making an observation.
I also don't know if they know but I can see the moderator list of the Codemsith sub and have been following that for a while. A rotating cast of suspended accounts and the official Codesmith account also moderates the sub!
Like you might not like my commentary but imagine how many documentation I have over 3 years too. I've been dotting my Is and crossing my Ts for 3 years in case Codesmith tries to blame me on the way down.
Well people can read for themselves and decide.
This thread is ironic because you are a fake account that only comments on my stuff and about Codemsith literally every single comment and this thread is an example of why I have so much comments in volume about Codemsith.
General public: do your research and don't fall for bullshit like this. This behavior is exactly why Codemsith is collapsing, students aren't signing up, staff are leaving.
You can wake up and try to fix it or keep doing this same old strategy and destroy the company.
Here is an analysis of my commentary purely about Codemsith "sporadic but consistent"
"Here’s an unbiased summary of Michael Novati’s commentary on Codesmith over the past few years—covering the topics he addressed, frequency, tone, and the overall vibe:
---
Topics & Themes
1. Curriculum Stagnation & Slow AI Integration
Michael pointed out that Codesmith’s curriculum has remained largely unchanged over the years. For example, in early 2024 he noted:
> "Codesmith's curriculum has been the same for YEARS but in Feb 2024 they added 5 lectures on AI… This is 'not changing'… 12–14 weeks of the same structure they did 5 years ago… I guess they think it's enough to raise prices to $22,500 this year."
---
2. Deteriorating Placement Outcomes
He emphasized a steep decline in graduate outcomes. He shared CIRR-based figures showing that six-month placement dropped from ~90% in 2021 to…
In case anyone is curious, here is what AI said about my last 3 years of Reddit activity:
"Here’s an unbiased summary of Reddit commentary by Michael Novati over roughly the past three years (from mid‑2022 to mid‑2025), covering common topics, frequency, tone, and the overall vibe:
---
Topics & Themes
1. Bootcamps & "Learn to Code" Critique
Skeptical of the bootcamp model. Novati has been notably critical of coding bootcamps—and especially the broader "Learn to Code" ideology. He highlights structural issues like oversupply of CS graduates, declining outcomes, and economic realities often overlooked by bootcamp marketing .
For instance, in /r/codingbootcamp he wrote:
> “The tech unemployment rate now exceeds the national average…” and argued “Learn to Code… ignored basic economics (oversupply depressing value/wages)” .
He has also raised doubts about data reporting by entiti…
My commentary on Codemsith is fair and research backed.
And yes, please look at my post and comment history!
Do you realize how much of that is these 50 comments back and forth threads with fake accounts that are now suspended or deleted from Reddit?
Their founder is encouraging people to attack me on this by selective pulling comments deep from threads where I was frustrated - which had dozens to hundreds of views and we're later edited or deleted - instead of focusing on the tens of thousands of views that point out fact based major flaws in Codesmith.
- twice publishing mistake reports to official bodies and issuing corrections after I called it out
- running a fake charity with no notable income with a fake leader who told me that Codesmith writes letters of reference on behalf of the charity and that she has been placed on leave for a year and isn't involved anymore.
- tanking o…
WSJ: Certificates aren't paying off either So no bootcamps, no masters, no certificates = NO SHORTCUTS TO CHANGING CAREERS. Exercise extreme caution before trying to get into tech without a full degree.
SOURCE: [https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/careers/more-workers-are-getting-job-skill-certificates-they-often-dont-pay-off-be49236f](https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/careers/more-workers-are-getting-job-skill-certificates-they-often-dont-pay-off-be49236f)
AI SUMMARY:
* **Most credentials don't deliver value**: A new study by Burning Glass Institute found that only 1 in 8 nondegree credentials (certificates, badges, online courses) provided notable pay gains within a year of completion.
* **Market has exploded**: Over 700,000 different nondegree credentials were available in the U.S. in 2022, with short-term certificates increasing by 33% between 2013-2023, as institutions spot a lucrative bu…
I wish more bootcamps would do the graceful shutdown with integrity like Rithm, Launch Academy, Epicodus, Bloomtech, App Academy, etc...
I feel so bad for the students when bootcamps implode like this and tell you to the last minute that they aren't going anywhere and taking you money.
People talk and you can only cover up collapse for so long.
Yeah it came back after 23.5 days out. They didn't explain what happened. They didn't explain what they are going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again.
But I think the biggest signal is the apathy all around.
Good question and really you shouldn't take only one person's advice because this industry is full of strong but different opinions.
Formation isn't all me and I'm not really involved in the theoretical aspects either - we have people who are better at that stuff working on that haha.
I work on the platform that powers all the practice, sessions, etc ... and I help people 1-1 with support, job hunting strategy, negotiation etc...
Our general model is that you'll have a core team of support staff that's stable, but that all your sessions are run by independent industry engineers . Each has different backgrounds and different strengths and weaknesses so you actually get a wide range of perspectives and personalities. You'll like some mentors and you won't like others, depending on you.
RE: coding machine. At my level I believe in the professional sports analogy. I plan one position rea…
Something unique about Launch School though is people have to do Core first, which covers basic programming skills, so the syllabus can focus on more advanced and/or employment topics, so it's a little different than standalone bootcamps.
Yeah Launch School is the only place I recommend right now because they are transparent about the market, Chris tries to adjust things that he thinks the market needs, then iterates on those things based on how they work or don't work. It's a tough market so marketing a vision doesn't work without the on the ground actions to back it up.
I always don't have much to say because your communications are very clear and transparent haha. I would have more to say if you were covering stuff up and twisting things.
Launch School Capstone announces cutback from 3 cohorts a year to 2 cohorts a year starting in 2026. Acknowledges tough job market, longer job hunts, and new changes to help people get real work experience though internships and open source commitments to to Firefox and large projects.
[Source](https://www.reddit.com/r/launchschool/comments/1moix9n/capstone_changes_announcement_for_2026/)
Note this is unofficial, personal commentary and opinions on these changes:
**SUMMARY OF CHANGES:**
* **Schedule change:** Moving from 3 cohorts/year to 2 (Spring & Fall only) to focus more resources on each group
* **AI Engineering expanded:** Now 2 full weeks dedicated to AI Engineering (model selection, evaluations, ingestion/retrieval strategies)
* **More experience opportunities:**
* Expanded Open Source Initiatives (OSI) - last cohort got everyone patches into Firefox
* New internship op…
Well I wouldn't assume it's doing that well business-wise, I don't think any bootcamp is doing well right.
The thing Nucamp has done very well, leveraging Ludo's strengths from Microsoft experience, is making connections with partners and governments to pay for aspects of the program.
But yeah for some reasons I always felt like Nucamp was advertised as Udemy + live mentors, rather than a legit pathway to a job, but I might be wrong.
Codesmith advertises itself as an 'outcomes of an elite graduate program for 1/10th the cost'.
Springboard is where I would be upset with because they license all their content, which is like Colt Steele's Udemy course + Rithm's original curriculum + mentors but charge like 2-3X Nucamp.
Yeah fair enough, I'm also curious. I have nothing against Nucamp and I think they overall market for what they are/do and don't overpromise. I like how they focus on user satisfaction for what they expected, etc...
OP probably wouldn't even find value in a $20K bootcamp.
Some people don't value the opportunity cost of their time when something is free.
And people don't complain as much when things are free.
And people take advantage of "free" government funded programs and then complaining about paying too much taxes as if these programs are magically free with money out of thin air.
Well doing research is about trying to get to the heart of the data and anecdotes and putting together a story.
If they only got really positive or negative stories that would be insufficient without the accompanying fact checking.
Like if all the stories are positive and then someone looks at like CIRR data and see 6 months outcomes tanking, salaries dropping, etc... BUT ALSO that some people do get jobs....
Then the facts speak for themselves - the trend is terrible for bootcamp grads, bootcamps are closing left right and center, and some people still get jobs from them.
If she's a good journalist and digs I'm looking forward to seeing what she finds.
We're starting to see a consolidation of bootcamps into lower priced and less hands on options (e.g. CodingTemple "bought" App Academy and App Academy's website is now just a layer on top of Coding Template).
The lower cost ones also had lower expenses (e.g. Springboard, Triple Ten) and they continue because they can eat into their margins and still be barely profitable by adding substantial costs to marketing and discounts. While my opinion of the materials is they are akin to a through/extensive Udemy course + having some humans around to contact and get help
They will survive as long as people say 'this isn't that expensive so I'll give it a shot' or if companies say 'this isn't that expensive so we'll reimburse it'.
Springboard's California reporting shows that only 3% of people finish the SWE track program "on time" and you should check the fine print of any job guarantee to see…
To me this is the difference:
Like people can 'owe so much to Harvard' and still see the pros and cons of going to Harvard - even if the pros outweigh the cons for you as an individual.
If you 'owe so much to Harvard' and then attack anyone criticizing Harvard for anything, then something is wrong.
When people are in the mindset of 'it changed my life', It comes down to leadership.
I talked to Codesmith's new CEO and said straight up about why I do what I do face to face, so when their founder goes around riling up the community as a 'competitor attacking the community' - that's a cult-like characteristic - turning reasonable and well-researched criticism (even if you find me annoying) into an "us vs them" ideological battle instead of a reasonable debate.
I'm aware of both groups at Codesmith. Many alumni that reach out to me or that I connect with, are very much in the 'I got a go…
The key thing here is "it"
YOU changed your life. YOU decided to sign up and put in the work to pass the entrance interviews. YOU showed up 13 hours a day. YOU hustled hard on your narratives to get past resume filtering. YOU passed interviews.
What did Codesmith do?
1. accountability
2. support
3. building self confidence
4. helping tell your narrative to get past screens
5. basic programming education
6. access to a network of alumni
I can see it getting blurry when instead of feeling like "Codesmith supported me in changing my life" the feeling tilts towards "Codesmith changed my life".
Cults (speaking generally from watching over 200 hours of cult documentaries) prey on people with low self confidence who will credit "it" with the positive impact the cult brings because that is easily turned into devotion and exploiting a need to "pay it back"). Things like free labor, donatio…
If people will pay for that given it's available for free, maybe that's not so bad.
I guess the jury is out on Codesmith because we'll see if they ever get it back or not yet. Not paying your bills, not having the phone number for 2 factor, and not being able to reclaim ownership of your core AWS account and not having a backup plan though is one in a generation failure if they aren't able to ever get the account back.