Hi, Codesmith is probably going to be better if you know how to code already, but it's still a bootcamp that covers all the basics that you might already know, so if you have to wait three months to do it, the lost time might not be worth it. What did you mean by wait three months?
If your skill level for DS&A is already at a high enough bar, look at Formation.dev as well. I'm co-founder so obviously biased, but if you do meet that bar it's probably the most effective (do your own research and don't trust me!)
If you aren't at that level yet then Codesmith sounds like it would be a better choice for you than DevMountain if you can start it at roughly the same time.
Another option to think about if you're more advanced is to do volunteer work at something like Hack4LA to get real project work. Codesmith's project work is with peers, no PMs, no designers, and not many real users, so working on something real would be more helpful if you are in it for some genuine experience.
u/WVAviator wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I meant wait three months because the next part time online course for Codesmith starts September 10th. DevMountain starts June 28th.
To be quite honest, I don't really know how advanced I am. That's one thing that's really appealing to me regarding bootcamps - having the opport
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
That seems like a long time, you might be able to get into Codesmith sooner. Most bootcamps might say "waitlist" or "closed" but they have room still. Can't hurt to ask.
If you want to gauge your DS&A alone, we made this 45 assessment you can do from Formation: [https://formation.dev/join/assessment](https://formation.dev/join/assessment)
u/aetrides wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
What’s the cost of Formation.dev relative to Codesmith?
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited★ FEATURED
Hey u/aetrides
Codesmith full bootcamp program is 12 weeks and is upfront $19,950 paid over 8 months or so. But they have various loans and scholarships to look into to spread it out further.
Formation doesn't have a bootcamp program, it's kind of like a personal trainer program. So we work with people however long it takes to get a job, typically 4 to 6 months. Our price varies from 9% to 15% of your new base salary (deferred until after you start your new job) depending on how much work you need and experience you have. Our median BASE salary for the past 12 months (since May 1, 2021) is $138K, so about $12,420 to $20,700?
So the programs are entirely different and we actually work with people who both come DIRECTLY FROM Codesmith to us and people who get jobs after Codesmith (amongst many other bootcamps) and then come to us.
People starting at zero fall in the bucket that have done both. People starting at not zero is where I would look more carefully into what the best path is for you. If you have experience or a CS degree already, hands down Formation. If you have been self taught for a while, depends on your skills and goals which is the best fit for you. And if you are starting from almost zero, Codesmith first.
u/hungrys0ul wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I’m thinking about doing Codesmith in the fall s d potentially Formation after I get a job just as another layer of experience. I’d like to become the best SWE I can possibly be as a career changer. I’ve been keeping up with
you for a while now u/michaelnovati and you’ve been ex
u/michaelnovatireplied·· edited
No problem, happy to help! that sounds like a good plan!
u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Well let me help you at the minimum eliminate DevMountain as an option -- you shouldn't be making this decision based on how much the bootcamp costs. DevMountain is $10,000 cheaper...and? Have you compared outcome data from DevMountain (https://devmountain.com/wp-content/uploads/
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
HackReactor is another program with audited results (not following CIRR because of some drama with CIRR, but audited), where some cohorts have six figure medians as well. Other than Codesmith's fake project work framed as months of experience and the whole mid level claim that I can talk about for days, I think Codesmith had better results than HackReactor for a lot of people who haven't done much coding yet.
Formation isn't a bootcamp or school and doesn't have a "program", fixed dates, cohorts, etc... so we haven't figured out the best way to talk about results. The median base salary of the past 12 months (since May 1, 2021) is $138k and TC is much higher when factoring in stock (usually in the tens of k per year) and bonuses (5 or 6 figures). But many people start Formation making a good salary (sometimes 6 figures already) already so apples and oranges. If you want to research, talk to many Fellows (current or past) and ask about their experience to see if its right for you.
u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Not sure how relevant to Hack Reactor's CIRR drama, but I can speak a bit to overall CIRR drama (as per Will Sentance).
I don't know the initial bootcamps that founded/sit on the board at CIRR, but basically, a fundamental issue with CIRR is that when you have a bootcamp (i.e.,
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Yeah excellent point! It is by far the best results compared to other bootcamps, and I actually think their program and results are very good (other than the work experience and mid level thing... sorry I have to qualify this every time so this statement is not quoted out of context).
Maybe Codesmith should just go the HackReactor route and publish their own audited results. I don't think they really need CIRR anymore as a stamp of approval. It's kind of like the Olympics where one country keeps winning everything and the other countries don't want to play anymore haha. If all the other bootcamps stopped reporting for example, that's what would happen.
Sorry if I came/or come across harsh on CIRR, I'm like truly very open minded to arguments both sides and love this discussion!
u/duchessviolet wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Hi, I’m a beginner, so I am not experienced enough to join formation.dev yet, but what do you think about Hackbright curriculum, their placement rates upon graduation and salaries upon graduation for beginners? I have read mixed reviews and still wondering if Hackreactor, Codesmi
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
So I think education-wise Hackbright's teaching and curriculum as it stands today in 2022, isn't that great, it's fine, but not one of the best of the best. However, the tech industry remains fairly man-dominated (75% - 25%) and some people who have done Hackbright have found it easier to learn in a more gender-supportive environment. The industry is changing and I absolutely don't want to stereotype, but from my experienced I can totally understand this perspective for many people as a big reason to join a program despite the quality of education.
Another option to consider if I was considering Hackbright, would be Ada Academy, which has been building more momentum lately. They have a guaranteed internship at the end which can help you get a job more effectively. Hackbright alumni have done well as they've progressed in their careers and the network is also strong and supportive, but Ada has a slight edge I think in helping you get a job post-graduation.
u/duchessviolet wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Thank you so much! That was really helpful. Just have a follow up question for which I haven’t found answer anywhere else. Do you think that with the right amount of preparation, with resources like CSX, is it possible for beginners to crack the tech assessment and join Hackreact
u/michaelnovatireplied·★ FEATURED
Absolutely possible! Codesmith is an interesting one because they are very proud of results and their bar to entry, but it's not as high as it sounds (don't get me wrong, it's high!) but if you start from 0, study really hard and have a little bit of natural inclination towards the concepts, you can get in and do well.
I would try to reach out to some of the Codesmith alumni on LinkedIn too that maybe have similar background to yourself. Reddit is a bit of a crazy place and real people via LinkedIn are fairly approachable!
u/duchessviolet wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
This was very helpful. I have read so many comments of yours and all of them were helpful ! And now I feel more motivated. Thanks again!
u/michaelnovatireplied·
No problem, feel free to ping me if you have more questions!