This... It was hard enough in the good old days, now I'm amazed any are still in business.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Every day a bootcamp closes, or lays people off, or has departures without replacements. The ones in business have been trying to pivot.
Triple Ten is trying to focus on B2B AI upskilling courses for non-engineers
Course Report is just completely moving to "courses" instead of bootcamps and their homepage entirely changed, it looks like they are abandoning bootcamps.
u/ericswc wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Those are the numbers I’ve consistently seen. I can’t name names due to NDAs
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Does that include people verified by "LinkedIn" who ghosted after graduating?
u/ericswc wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Most of the groups follow the CIRR model. But, I wasn’t there to verify the details. I saw celebration posts go out on their slack channels and such, spoke to some employers, focused on the efficacy of the programs.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
The CIRR model is full of holes. One of the directors on their website already stepped down recently and I have no idea who is running it. They don't respond to emails asking where the audited copies of their reports are - because they are missing.
The CIRR model covers up terrible results.
Look at recent ones, about 50% of placements didn't report their salaries and that number used to be like 90%.
They change the placement window from 180 days to 360 days.
So a program that had a 80% placement (90% of people responding) in 180 days that is now a 70% placement (50% of people responding) in 360 days....
Yet the website has a giant 70% not much worse than 2022, everything it fine!
It's not fine, not at all.
u/ericswc wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Oh I agree. Someday I should post the story of CIRR’s formation. I was at the event with a bunch of the other popular Bootcamps. I was advocating for much stricter reporting requirements because we were legitimately doing great.
The consensus watered it down significantly. I alm
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I've heard some bits and pieces too. One interesting observation is that the founding company happens to provide bootcamp loans to students and has an interest in getting standardized data from schools across the board to understand the risk and the math for all their loans. Without any data, I suspect it's hard for them to get banks and investors to back them right.
u/Infatuation79 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I’m in a bootcamp now, they were very upfront about everything can be learned online for free and they were paying to ask questions and get fast answers. Also very realistic on the job market. “NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR BOOTCAMP EXPERIENCE “ Many have good reason to be in the bootc
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I have this debate often, but my problem is that go to the bootcamp's website and if you see a $100,000! or 90% placement rate in large font in the hero section, then you are paying for a job and not for an "experience".
If you want to pay $20K for an experience, go ahead, but the typical reasonable person who see that "70% of people make $110K" is not.
And if those numbers or misleading then it pisses a lot of people off who paid for that outcome.
I like Launch School because their website doesn't have a bit salary number on it and the hero says that it's the "slow path" to becoming an engineer.
You decide if that's for you or not but it's not misleading.
People disagree with me on this and I'm open to debate but I feel strongly about my opinion haha.
u/ericswc wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
That was actually the nail in the coffin for a lot of camps.
They’d get loans for the students, sell them off to services for 80 cents on the dollar for cash flow.
Once the placement rates started dropping, the loan companies started pulling back or demanding more of a discount
u/michaelnovatireplied·
"Nail in the coffin" is a term used like 5 times for 5 different reasons.
The coffin is SECURELY CLOSED at this point.
u/HedgieHunterGME wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
So it’s really the only viable option then?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Other programs can be viable for different people and Launch School also is for the right people, not for everyone. You should talk to them and explore it cautiously, just like any program. Any pressure tactics or weird vibes from any program and you bounce.
u/VastAmphibian wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
my friend just got an offer last week after doing a bootcamp. He finished the bootcamp in January. So almost a year looking for work after graduation. He did not have any programming experience prior to the bootcamp. went to college but for a health sciences degree. hiring compan
u/michaelnovatireplied·
The problem isn't n = 0, it's that bootcamp websites have giant $110,000 salary banners on their homepage and they are selling the outcome, when the change in outcomes has completely tanked.
If they are selling the outcomes, the outcomes are very bad and the bootcamps are going out of business as a result.