u/avengedteddy wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Thats amazing man. My wife is trying to get i to web dev right now (she used to do web design) and all these posts are scaring her awaybfrom learning front end. Its good to hear some positivity
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I would recommend you thoroughly do your research (across multiple sources) and watch out for confirmation bias. That's not to say whether a bootcamp is or is not a good idea for any specific individual person, but that confirmation bias has historically been in play in this subreddit for many years - both for and against bootcamps.
For example, read the full original paper linked here that was updated yesterday with the latest raw data of job postings: [https://www.reddit.com/r/InformatikKarriere/comments/1nj4r8r/harvardstudie\_es\_ist\_vorbei\_f%C3%BCr\_berufseinsteiger/?tl=en](https://www.reddit.com/r/InformatikKarriere/comments/1nj4r8r/harvardstudie_es_ist_vorbei_f%C3%BCr_berufseinsteiger/?tl=en)
u/michaelnovatireplied·
A challenge I've had over the years is the question of if bootcamps are selling the outcome or the process.
In reality, you are paying for the process (a rapid crash course in engineering) and trying to get the best outcome you can (or no outcome at all).
But most bootcamps sell their outcomes (like the hero banners of many bootcamps have their salary stats or outcomes statement in them!).
If students pay for the process but bootcamps think they are selling the outcomes, there is a fundamental mismatch or disconnect in the market.
I think "RIP Coding Bootcamps" is actually RIP "bootcamps selling you outcomes". Bootcamps with outcomes numbers in their hero banners are the ones that are "RIP".
The existential challenge now is that If bootcamps sell you the process, then they are selling: crappy materials often copied/derived or licensed, teachers who recently graduated the program themselves, staff members with little industry experience, projects that are less substantial than CS degree projects, etc... and it's a hard sell that this is worth the $15/$20K anymore with AI out there providing better materials than that for free or $20/month.
u/sherrifderek (I was trying to reply to you but your comments got threaded too deep)
u/SubstantiallyAnxious wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
If an LLM can teach better than you, then you may not be as great of a teacher as you think.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I don't agree or disagree, but with that argument you can say 'If a calculator can crunch numbers better than you, you are not as good at math as you think' and it's not really a good argument.
u/InterestingFrame1982 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
They are a scam now, but during the mid to late 2010s, they were career changing for a lot of people with the passion and motivation to pivot professions. It was never supposed to be the end-all be-all to one's own journey learning software development. For the people who truly
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I commented above but the existential crisis is that bootcamps worked ok when people were paying for the outcome and getting it. It's clear from most of the websites that shove their outcomes into the hero banners that the outcomes are what you are paying for.
If the derivative/delta of the outcomes is in really bad shape and people don't want to pay for the outcome, then the only other option for survival is if they pay for the education itself.... and when you are taught by recent graduates and the materials suck, then people won't pay for that either. Even if you had the #1 quality instructors and materials, it's a hard sell that it's worth $20K for 12 weeks or w/e...
It's really a hard time for all bootcamps if the outcomes are tanking/have tanked and there's no fix or solution that I can think of to the market problem.
u/InterestingFrame1982 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Yes, but I think you may be conflating the current economic conditions and the impact of a potentially devastating technology (AI) with effectiveness and quality of said bootcamps. Now, there is a lot of granularity in this conversation, and it's implied I am talking about the m
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I think this comes to some of the tension in the bootcamp industry right now.
Three approaches I'm seeing:
1. Some places are pausing because they just don't think they can do anything about the market. They think their product is relevant in a good market but not in this market.
2. Some places are pivoting and changing. Offering B2B programs or rebranding or new formats.
3. Some places are doing what they always did and trying to proceed as if it still works right now and the market isn't a problem.
There are examples in all of these cases of failures: pauses never resuming, pivots not working out, ignoring the market and losing product market fit.
I have seen only one program come back: Gauntlet from BloomTech. They did #2 by pivoting to a 'Top 2% IQ program to isolate the best of the best and teach them AI'. And it's working so far in that they have rebounded from almost zero.
I'm not criticizing or blaming, just laying out the landscape and the map and individuals can interpret how they want.
u/LostInCombat wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
\> LLMs are also not made for, or well suited for, teaching.
Teacher spotted....
\> LLMs are just function approximation machines
You either have never used a LLM to its full potential, or you don't understand what some are capable of, perhaps you have an AI skill issue. Y
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I think the mixup with the person might be Chat apps VS LLMs. LLMs don't teach by nature but they can be used to power teaching apps. Chat apps aren't built to teach right now but if you use them with high skill you can learn a lot nonetheless.
Both will impact education.
u/HedgieHunterGME wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
You still reccomend launch school?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Even the best bootcamps with tanking placements rates are having placements for the right subset of people who join.
So if the program is transparent and clear about how things are in 2025 (not 2023 grads or 2024 grads) then I would spend some time seeing if it's good for you or not and then decide.
But the market in 2025 is not good for bootcamp grads and your odds of a good outcome are low in my opinion so you have to be very self reflective about if it's a good fit for you.
For example, someone on Reddit commented recently that they went to a top bootcamp routing a high placement rate and graduated early 2025 very few people are placed yet and going to the bootcamp convinced them to not be a SWE and they thought it was worth the fee to learn this - which not everyone would agree with and is a personal situation unique for this person.
I stand by my recent "red flags" post and "who should go to a boot camp in 2025", posts.
u/HedgieHunterGME wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Are you talking about launch school? Or another program
u/michaelnovatireplied·
The example was speaking about a different program.
Launch School's latest cohort outcomes are here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/launchschool/comments/1n8s8mr/cohort\_2408\_salary\_outcomes\_6month/](https://www.reddit.com/r/launchschool/comments/1n8s8mr/cohort_2408_salary_outcomes_6month/)
My comments thought apply to all bootcamps.