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CIRR is back after a 4-5 day outage with a brand new website design and 2023 data. Only 3 schools reporting. In depth analysis of Codesmith's 2023 vs 2022 data in the body.

14 of Michael's comments in this thread · View thread on Reddit ↗

u/michaelnovati posted · · edited
CIRR is back after a 4-5 day outage with a brand new website design and 2023 data. Only 3 schools reporting. In depth analysis of Codesmith's 2023 vs 2022 data in the body. Analysis coming soon and ETA 1am Japan time.
u/michaelnovati replied · DELETED · archived copy · edited ★ FEATURED
I seriously think your a troll and I try really hard to treat everyone without assumptions, but like Reddit keeps flagging like ALL of you comments as 'may be from a spammer or someone likely to break rules' I've repeatedly directly answers to you about what Formation is and what we do and why we don't have a concept of a placement rate so I can only assume you are a troll at this point. CA 180 day was 42% or so and this is 43% or so, so they align really well.

u/Repulsive-Hall-9636 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

If CIRR has three members why are you only looking at one - can you do an analysis of the other two as well?

u/michaelnovati replied ·
One of them is in Indonesia and I'm not qualified to evaluate that market. The other one is intended for veterans, which is another niche area I'm not qualified to evaluate. So Codesmith is the only mainstream bootcamp in CIRR.

u/AlertProfessional706 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

I think that you are being slightly negative I think this suggests that the quality of graduates has done up given 70% employment within 12 months is fantastic in this market if this isn’t statistical bullshit

u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Launch School Capstone had 75% placement within 6 months, so no these aren't fantastic. 6 months is an insane amount of time. That's $55K of opportunity cost as these salaries!!! So a drop is not good. Codesmith has undergone turmoil to say the least internally but I think they have kept the instruction relatively consistent, so this could be more about the market than Codesmith. But there is another option - no bootcamp, so doing the best they can in a bad market doesn't mean it's worth $22.5K

u/BigCardiologist3733 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

to be fair, codesmith’s stats are really good compared to your average decent state university

u/michaelnovati replied ·
They are indeed, but they are comparing themselves to "elite grad schools at a fraction of the cost" so that's what I compared them to. If they said "Pay two years of state school tuition to get a better job in 12 weeks" I wouldn't be so hard on them.

u/BigCardiologist3733 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

to be fair, codesmith’s stats are really good compared to your average decent state university

u/michaelnovati replied · DELETED · archived copy
They are indeed, but they are comparing themselves to "elite grad schools at a fraction of the cost" so that's what I compared them to. If they said "Pay two years of state school tuition to get a better job in 12 weeks" I wouldn't be so hard on them.

u/BigCardiologist3733 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

i bet not even codesmith themselves really believes it. if it was true, you would see people turn down stanford and mit to go to codesmith which has never happened LOL

u/michaelnovati replied · DELETED · archived copy ★ FEATURED
One of their advisors said in info session(s) that his son who went to Yale was considering Codesmith or wished he did Codesmith or something, so I don't think it's all bluster. Look at this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ9\_hxujtFQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ9_hxujtFQ) 1. Mid level "contractor" at Microsoft, not full time employee - called Senior Engineer 2. Codesmith instructor turned CS educator - called Senior Engineer 3. "Tech Entrepreneur" 4. Staff level manager - legit It's continuous bluster!

u/staylucid1 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

There was a massive downturn in tech hiring starting in late 2022, and continuing through 2023 (and still going), including major layoffs at FAANG and other large companies. This had an obvious impact on any group of people seeking software engineering roles. In light of this rad

u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
1. Launch School Captsone 75% in 6 months in overlapping window. So I disagree! 2. But even Launch School is upset at the decline from like 95% to 75% and acknowledges that as market impacted. The thing is that paying $22.5K to go to Codesmith with a 43% chance of getting a job within 10 months from now, like it makes you ask if now is the time, if this will even work, etc... No one is forcing anyone to do a SWE bootcamp and they might just not be rational anymore. Like Codesmith was like $17K a few years ago and had like a 90% placement in 6 months. The math is ENTIRELY different than $22.5K and 43% chance.

u/staylucid1 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

>No one is forcing anyone to do a SWE bootcamp and they might just not be rational anymore. I don't think anybody disagrees with you on this. The Launch School stats you mention are a great example of a program that may have better ROI than Codesmith, for people who are seeking

u/michaelnovati replied · · edited
The stuff after "CHATGPT DEEP RESEARCH: WARNING - LONG!" is all ChatGPT and not me

u/BigCardiologist3733 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

what do u think of my comment michael?

u/michaelnovati replied · DELETED · archived copy
Which video are you referring to? I might be misreading but I wasn't sure if you meant the link I shared or the call I mentioned.

u/BigCardiologist3733 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

the link, as well as my comment about how they were not serious about choosing yale over codesmith

u/michaelnovati replied · DELETED · archived copy ★ FEATURED
Oh I mean I have no idea how serious it was or how often it was said. Or more details on why. And it might be Princeton, not Yale, I have to check my notes and I was on an airplane with terrible wifi. There are ivy league grads who go to Codesmith and do extremely well so I actually don't think that would be an absurd consideration to do it after graduation if you changed your mind about CS. The link is about senior engineer titles which is a completely different topic, but falls under the marketing bluster, but has nothing to do with choosing Codesmith over an ivy league education.

u/AngeFreshTech wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

What are these 3 schools ?

u/michaelnovati replied ·
Code Platoon, Codesmith, Hactiv8

u/Serious-Expression49 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

u/michaelnovati Just Ignore u/Jumpy_Discipline6056 I appreciate the post.

u/michaelnovati replied ·
Oh wow that comment went from like +1 to +12 suddenly, jeez... didn't realize everyone pays for the super expensive plan + deep research, OpenAI must be making bank at $200 a month.

u/Jumpy_Discipline6056 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

Did you create this account just to say this? Very weird.

u/michaelnovati replied ·
If you think creating accounts just to say one or two things is weird, then you'll think that Codesmith's entire subreddit and AMAs are scams where the only people interacting with them are newish accounts that only comment on a couple of AMAs and that's it.